MP3 CDs

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Putting that aside for a moment though, the reason I wrote my first DJ program (which is still my only DJ program), was to save my back! I couldn't care less whether Joe the Plumber, can tell the difference between a CD and an MP3, in a quiet room, with headphones going through an o scope.

Now, since you said I called you a liar above (don't mind me, I always call people from Joisey liars, and bad drivers to boot (Joe especially) :D), I thought I should elaborate...

One thing I would like to state, as Scott mentioned above -- if you don't feel MP3 is up to your standards, use WAV! It is an exact duplicate of your CD -- sample for sample.




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Well, I don't know if responding is worthwhile, since you think all people from New Jersey are liars, but what the hell, I like adding insult to injury.

Although I DID beat the PC people in the speed loading contest, I also came in third overall to two other disc based guys. The PC came in FOURTH. The fact is, while none of us may have beaten YOU, Rick, the average KJ/DJ is not a computer geek, and doesn't spend his/her life on a keyboard. They are people with other priorities..so may not be as speedy as one who lives through a PC. You are not a DJ/KJ, but a software writer/seller. Therefore, YOU may well be faster, and it also well behooves you to push PC shows.

One more thing. If you do decide to start interacting with people again, you may wish to work on your social skills. Calling me a liar without having any facts is not conducive to warm fuzzy feelings...


Oh yes:
"I couldn't care less whether Joe the Plumber, can tell the difference between a CD and an MP3" - Sorry to hear that. I care. The payback is my success in this business.....
 
can we regain the moment when one was called a liar for us senior citizens? Joe reply to my thread please my friend.
 
What if: you could EQ a song, and save it?

Wait, you can! And then add the new EQ'd version to your music library, without having to burn another disc?

I have done this, and even started threads describing what songs I felt compelled to "fix" in this manner. Want me to start a thread on that, here?


Yes, a separate thread would certainly be of interest to many!
 
can we regain the moment when one was called a liar for us senior citizens? Joe reply to my thread please my friend.


I mentioned that I had beaten a PC guy in a speed loading contest. Rick stated that it was physically impossible. If he believes that, than he also believes I'm lying. Which makes me.......
 
Produced CDs today still have to be EQ'd in many cases.

I EQ my PA system to provide a 'flat response' before every event - this process also helps to reduce room modes, etc.

I provide very little in the way of EQ to individual songs - but I will occasionally use the three EQ knobs - Treble, Mid, Bass - if I feel like the song is a little weak in one of those areas. In general, I find that 'oldies' from the 50's, 60's and 70's sometimes need a little help on the low end.

But, as a rule, I do not think that "CD's produced today" need much in the way of overall correction once the sound system is flat. These are generally mastered to within an inch of their lives (or to within -3dB down, if you prefer).

How do you EQ individual songs, and what effect are you trying to achieve?
 
Well, I don't know if responding is worthwhile, since you think all people from New Jersey are liars, but what the hell, I like adding insult to injury.

Me too :sqbiggrin: :sqlaugh:


Although I DID beat the PC people in the speed loading contest, I also came in third overall to two other disc based guys. The PC came in FOURTH. The fact is, while none of us may have beaten YOU, Rick, the average KJ/DJ is not a computer geek, and doesn't spend his/her life on a keyboard. They are people with other priorities..so may not be as speedy as one who lives through a PC.

Don't need to be a geek Joe -- type 2 or 3 letters, hit enter, drag and drop. Easy as pie, even for those challenged in the computer arts :)

Which, if I might add: Being practiced with your tool of choice, whether it be a CD player, turntable, or a computer -- is something everyone should do. People that do not know how to use a computer properly or efficiently, should not use one for DJ'ing.

You are not a DJ/KJ, but a software writer/seller. Therefore, YOU may well be faster, and it also well behooves you to push PC shows.

DJ'd for over 30 years Joe -- starting on 8 tracks, vinyl, cassette, you name it :sqcool:

I didn't originally write the software to sell it -- it was for my benefit. Other people saw it, and wanted it -- that is why I now sell it (besides, I make more money that way, and I'm a damn fine capitalist) :)


One more thing. If you do decide to start interacting with people again, you may wish to work on your social skills. Calling me a liar without having any facts is not conducive to warm fuzzy feelings...

Never really liked people anywho... Don't care if they like me either. The less I interact with people, the more work I get done -- and I love my work, far more than I like socializing.

BTW, I didn't call you a liar -- I just pointed out a physics equation. That is not lying IMHO, it is ignorance of the equation. And, my bad for not making that equation known in the initial post that ruffled yer feathers :)



Oh yes: "I couldn't care less whether Joe the Plumber, can tell the difference between a CD and an MP3" - Sorry to hear that. I care. The payback is my success in this business.....

You forgot to quote me for the length of my statement/idea:

"The noise floor at any event, renders the argument irrelevant -- that is fact. 50 people stomping to Mony, Mony, and yelling Get laid..., makes it impossible to tell the difference in either the source, or the output. It is not a valid debate point in the DJ Universe."


I care enough, that in my listening room, I only use tube equipment. That doesn't mean I'm gonna drag that stuff out to a gig, where people are drunk, loud and worried about more than some minor differences, that they wouldn't be able to hear in that environment...

I certainly never said MP3's were better than CDs in sound quality -- I just point out, that they appear to make a better choice of tool for DJ work, IMHO, and certainly make life easier... YMMV :)
 
Well, I don't know if responding is worthwhile, since you think all people from New Jersey are liars, but what the hell, I like adding insult to injury.

Although I DID beat the PC people in the speed loading contest, I also came in third overall to two other disc based guys. The PC came in FOURTH. The fact is, while none of us may have beaten YOU, Rick, the average KJ/DJ is not a computer geek, and doesn't spend his/her life on a keyboard. They are people with other priorities..so may not be as speedy as one who lives through a PC. You are not a DJ/KJ, but a software writer/seller. Therefore, YOU may well be faster, and it also well behooves you to push PC shows.

...

you beating the pc people does not mean that cd's are faster. you beating the pc people means YOU are faster at what you do than they are with what they do. The PC did NOT come in fourth. a person using a PC came in fourth. While i'm not an engineer, a true test would need a number of random subjects at different skill levels to be an accurate test, would it not?
While you certainly feel you are faster with cd's, ask any DJ or kj that uses computers and most will tell you that they find it much faster and easier to use a computer compared to how they used to do it with cds. For me, the only test that matters is how fast I can look up a song, locate the disc, load the disc, let the cd player read it, find the track, then set the cue point VS typing in 2-3 letters and loading a song(with the cue already set). I can tell you it was no contest. Just as a good cd based DJ gets to know his library, a good computer based dj gets to know his library too...and knows the unique few letters that will bring up that song quickly. If anyone can do all of that with cd's in the few split seconds of a few key strokes, let me recommend youtube.....you will be famous!!!! While using cd's, when someone asked me for a song that I didn't play on a regular basis, it took me longer than that just to figure out what book the darn disc was in.

I agree with you that the average dj/kj does not spend his life on a keyboard. the average dj/kj does not enter and win speed contests either, regardless of their media. The average dj/kj doesn't stay in the business long enough to get really good at anything.

I recommend computers to DJ with because of my experience. I have used cds for years and have found computers give me tremendous advantages over the use of cds. While I can understand that some people simply don't like computers and can't get comfortable with them, I do encourage anyone that is considering the move to do it. I dont sell computers or software.
 
1) I didn't originally write the software to sell it -- it was for my benefit. Other people saw it, and wanted it -- that is why I now sell it (besides, I make more money that way, and I'm a damn fine capitalist) :)




2) Never really liked people anywho... Don't care if they like me either. The less I interact with people, the more work I get done -- and I love my work, far more than I like socializing.

3) BTW, I didn't call you a liar -- I just pointed out a physics equation. That is not lying IMHO, it is ignorance of the equation. And, my bad for not making that equation known in the initial post that ruffled yer feathers :)




4) I certainly never said MP3's were better than CDs in sound quality -- I just point out, that they appear to make a better choice of tool for DJ work, IMHO, and certainly make life easier... YMMV :)

1) No problem with capitalism, Rick. It's a biggie for me too. Previous success in other endeavors has put me in a position to live my life as I please.


2) Don't really care myself. There are a lot of people out there who may not like me. Funny thing is, I can still like them. Liking me is not a prerequisite.


3) Bullsh**t. I said I did something, you said I didn't- kinda sounds like calling me a liar, far as I can tell. No worries. I don't know you, and will probably will never meet you, so ya just really don't count. The difference between us is that if I make a statement, I stand up and take responsibility. I don't say it didn't happen. BTW- you never bothered to ask, but I'll elucidate. The contest was queuing up nine songs in rotation as chosen at random by the judges from our own karaoke books, and then introducing a random song and rotation change. I had all discs laid out while the PC guy was still doing his "2 or 3 keystrokes". When the random change was introduced, my new disc was laid in place while the PC guy was still scrolling- in under 3 seconds.


4) That's just it. If NO ONE says MP3s are better, or even equal, then why keep pushing them? To legitamatize using them? Somebody tell me, in a clear and concise manner.
 
you beating the pc people does not mean that cd's are faster. you beating the pc people means YOU are faster at what you do than they are with what they do. .


Scott, THANK YOU! If I could hit the Thanks button more than once, I would! I completely agree, and this is the point I have been TRYING to make.

This is why it drives me nuts to hear that PCs are faster- they are not. As Scott just pointed out, it is the USER- of whatever media- that is faster. Thus, SPEED is not a PC benefit, unless the USER becomes faster with it than they were with discs.

Scott, the fact that you have found the PC beneficial for YOUR use is not in question. If you say it is, than it is so. However, that which may be beneficial to you, may not be to others, as proven in the "problem" threads here on the forum.

In my case, the KISS principle makes sense both ergonomically and economically. This is also the case with many who have switched to PC and have had to spend way too much time and money to NO advantage. In others' case, it worked for them. Fine. However, there is absolutely NOTHING that definitively shows PCS as generally superior. Therefore, switching is hit or miss.
 
If NO ONE says MP3s are better, or even equal, then why keep pushing them? To legitamatize using them? Somebody tell me, in a clear and concise manner.

I keep swearing that I'm done with this thread, yet here I am again.

I can't answer why something is being "pushed" until it is established that something IS being pushed. Joe, you keep insisting that mp3s are being pushed. Who is doing that, where, and how? Please be specific, I have missed it so far, and don't wish to continue missing it.

Other than your off-topic rant, and remarkably zealous insistence upon arguing things that also aren't part of the original question posed, I've seen people: offer advice about mp3 cd playback devices (my first post in this thread did so - squarely on topic), or (not as directly on topic) suggest that if you're going to use mp3s, why use discs at all?

Joe, when and how was the line crossed for you between answering a question, based on someone's personal experiences and preferences, and pushing something?
 
Brother Joe,

If it's any help, Shirl and I have had the pleasure of visiting with Rick in his home recently. Rick is a great guy and a great host. We felt right at home, just chatting about anything. Heck, we brought our puppy dog along on the trip and she cuddled right up next to Rick on the sofa like she'd known him forever. She doesn't do that for us most of the time. :eek:

You'd like Rick as soon as you met him, trust me on this one. :)

If bbs members promoting the PC or MP3 aspect irritate you, ignore it. You don't have to respond, ya know. People aren't gonna change just because you (or I) think they should.

The primary advantage to PC DJing ~ ya don't have to carry hard copy media anymore. The CD cases can be left at home or in the truck. Whether it sounds better or not is subjective. The draw is simplicity and fewer cases to load.

Thoughts?
 
Here's just one example of what's changed for me, since going computer...

I used to have to have a table behind me, which I would carry myself, since trying to get the staff to bring you a table can take 45 minutes at some venues. I placed this table behind me, with 1200 or so CDs on it. Nevermind the load in and out, these cases of discs took up much more space, and had me with my back turned to the audience, much of the time.

I now carry much MORE music, in the space of about a pack of cigarettes, that is mounted IN my casing. And yes, I can access anything I have in seconds. Have you noticed how the amount of space venues expect you to work in has shrunk, over the years? If you're not adapting and keeping up with techonology, do you find venues annoyed with the amount of space you take up? I don't.
 
Scott, THANK YOU! If I could hit the Thanks button more than once, I would! I completely agree, and this is the point I have been TRYING to make.

This is why it drives me nuts to hear that PCs are faster- they are not. As Scott just pointed out, it is the USER- of whatever media- that is faster. Thus, SPEED is not a PC benefit, unless the USER becomes faster with it than they were with discs.my point was that MOST PC users will tell you that using pc's is much faster for them than CD's

Scott, the fact that you have found the PC beneficial for YOUR use is not in question. If you say it is, than it is so. However, that which may be beneficial to you, may not be to others, as proven in the "problem" threads here on the forum.Totally agree, everyone should use what is beneficial for them. Again, I don't see those as "problem" threads. I see those as "learning" threads

In my case, the KISS principle makes sense both ergonomically and economically. This is also the case with many who have switched to PC and have had to spend way too much time and money to NO advantage. In others' case, it worked for them. Fine. However, there is absolutely NOTHING that definitively shows PCS as generally superior. Therefore, switching is hit or miss.
I am the king of Keep It Super Simple. I used to bring 4 cd players, mics, 2 mixers, 2 amps, speakers, speaker poles, books and books of cd's, books for customers and me to look things up, a table, an assistant. Today, I bring a laptop, a denon hd2500, 2 bose systems,
 
Here's just one example of what's changed for me, since going computer...

I used to have to have a table behind me

Table? Table? I have not needed that ever since going to Serato. The crate I have I can use as a Table. I just throw a black blanket over it and it becomes a table for me. No need to wait for the staff to find one and dress it. :sqlaugh:
 
If it's any help, Shirl and I have had the pleasure of visiting with Rick in his home recently. Rick is a great guy and a great host. We felt right at home, just chatting about anything. Heck, we brought our puppy dog along on the trip and she cuddled right up next to Rick on the sofa like she'd known him forever. She doesn't do that for us most of the time.

You'd like Rick as soon as you met him, trust me on this one.

Shssh, Yer gonna ruin my reputation Fred... :sqlaugh: :rofl:



4) That's just it. If NO ONE says MP3s are better, or even equal, then why keep pushing them? To legitamatize using them? Somebody tell me, in a clear and concise manner.

Don't really see anybody pushing them Joe, just trying to explain the advantages, and also as mentioned, the fact that if one is going to use MP3s, they might just as well play them back on a computer, instead of a CD player.

One big advantage to MP3s, is their tagging format -- you can put all sorts of worthless stuff in there (even karaoke lyrics, which can sync to the music) :)

I think those of us that are computer based, are pushing the ease of load ins/outs, the ability to quickly locate any track in the library ( without resorting to physical means of looking for them), etc.

One of the biggest and best advantages, is backup! If a fire roars through wherever you keep your CDs, what do you do? Me, I go out to the garage, grab the little backup drive, plug it in, and ready to go. Replacing the computer, is in most cases, cheaper than replacing a couple decent DJ CD decks.


I can easily see people wanting to stick to CDs, for the touchy, feely part -- it's similar to me smoking, since I don't inhale -- I just like having something in my hand, and the alternative wouldn't fly in public :D

So, substitute WAV in place of MP3, if you don't like the compressed format of MP3s -- they are identical to what your CD player is playing. And some really cool programs like Rockit, can also read and write WAV tags (had to get a plug in) :sqbiggrin:


As to problems -- I've never had a single one at a gig using a computer!

Then again, I took the time to learn how to use one. The people who generally have problems, generally have not taken that time, or are too busy surfing porn sites, and getting viruses, etc. You get out of it, what you put into it -- much like anything else...
 
Although I DID beat the PC people in the speed loading contest, I also came in third overall to two other disc based guys. The PC came in FOURTH.

I generally think of a PC as being faster for searching and cueing songs. Can you describe how the contest was conducted so I can better understand what was being timed?

4) That's just it. If NO ONE says MP3s are better, or even equal, then why keep pushing them? To legitamatize using them? Somebody tell me, in a clear and concise manner.

Because "better" in this case can not be judged in absolute terms.

There is a balance in quality of sound that involves the full PA system - from source, to mixer, to effects, to amps, to speakers, to the room. For mobile PA systems compromises about weight, cost, pack space, durability, and quality are made in selecting the components.

The PA systems that are in use by most mobile DJs need to be more durable, more robust, and more reliable than an "audiophile" style of system. In most cases quality is one of the compromises that is made. And that is a good thing. Since most audiophile systems are far too delicate for repeated load in/out, and tend to be built and tuned for a single room and even for a single listening position within that room!

What finally pushed me over the edge was a set of tests that I did about 5 years ago. I setup and conducted several blind tests with listeners who claimed to be "audiophiles" or at least "very picky about quality." I used "familiar" songs. I played in a room where they had all heard music played many dozens of times. The test went like this:

  • Ten songs were played.
  • The songs were between 2 and 3 minutes long.
  • The songs were adjusted to the same SPL level.
  • Four songs were from CD's.
  • Four songs were mp3's.
  • Two songs were a wildcard (i.e. could be from CD or mp3).
  • Each lab rat had a list of the ten songs (with artist and title).
  • The lab rats knew that there would be four of each, with two wildcards.
  • The lab rats were asked to check a box for each song that had the source - CD, mp3, or "Can not tell"
  • An independent person created the "answer sheet" and scored the tests.

At the beginning of the test, every person was "positive" that they could tell the difference between a CD and an mp3. The expectation was that the difference was so obvious that every person should have gotten every song correct.

I have had over 80 people take the test. So far, only four people had better results that simple guessing would have produced (and just barely). Until I added the "Can not tell" option, more than half the people told me they were "guessing."

While this is a long way from saying that mp3's are 'equal' to CD's. I will say that in practice, there is not enough difference to notice....and for the Vast Majority(tm) of PA systems, there is no perceivable difference at all between the quality of a CD and an mp3 (played through a properly setup computer with an external sound card).

So...with all that background:

I do not advocate mp3's (per say) but I do advocate computers for playback. The benefits of a computer system simply outweight the costs, both in $$$ and in any perception of quality.

In general I find it more convenient to search my collection with a computer. Especially when I am looking for all the songs by a particular artist, or songs in a bpm range, or within a particular genre. Computers can save playlists for all your events. Computers allow one person to carry a very large music collection without needing to haul in crates and boxes and stacks, oh my! Computers allow for some playlists to be automated, allowing the DJ to work the room during some portions of the event. All of that is about having a computer, not about the format of the songs.

I hope that was "clear" even if it was not "concise."