Here's an interesting question Mike...When a client hires you to do lighting; do they give you all the cues in order, or do you just "wing it"?
...Just curious....
...Just curious....
MP3 CDs
- Thread starter DJ Ducky
- Start date
Well, like I said in my other post, it depends on the client and my position. Obviously if they hire me as a programmer or lighting director that will be different than if they hire me as a designer. But even being a designer has different degrees. I have worked for clients where I go to production meetings and design the show from the ground up and get to be part of the process. I have worked for other clients where they gave me cue lists and even sat there with me while I made the cues! *lol*
It all depends. I am more likely to take gigs with more creative freedom, and I charge more (per hour worked) for gigs with less freedom (because my fee doesn't change and I work less hours because I don't have to go to meetings/rehearsals/ect).
So it depends on the client.
Mike
so you don't like to be a button monkey either......
Nope, but for the right amount of money, I am game. I know I am a w****.
Mike
3) More than agree. No matter WHAT media you choose, backing up as a MUST is the common factor.
4) I know that you were referring to those IN the industry as far as perceptions. However, this same (SEMI-incorrect) perception of possible clients is another reason I don't use a PC at public events. The clients see it and say "why not me?" - and they are half right! Yes, it takes another set of skills to operate a PC show. Unfortunately, there are a helluva lot more PC literate people out there than trained and knowledgeable DJs.
Can they do the job as well as a trained DJ or Karaoke Host? Of course not. But they CAN operate a PC, so they are willing to try it at the cost of blowing someone's event, and a job for a real DJ.
I use PCDJ/KJ when I have to. It took me one sitting to master it, and I'm a putz. Someone like Rob probably figured it out in HALF a sitting.
In other words: A different set of skills, but not not a unique set.
OOPS! I just realized that I really state an opinion regarding the original question of the thread.
So yes, I prefer CDs, but no, I don't think arranging MP3 discs by artist will be much of a benefit. I believe that using songbook software as previously described would be you best bet for speed location.
I see your point on the last issue. It is the same some salesman seeing a band and selling them a few scanners and some PARs and a little foot pedal DMX controller instead of referring them to an actual lighting designer.
I can see what you are saying. But there will always be amateurs who try and do it themselves (or for others) and end up ruining an event. But I have found in those cases the client wouldn't spend the money it would take to get a professional anyway.
Mike
Gotta disagree, and least in regard to quantity different types
of problems.
I won't go into it again, but here's a thought:
Go into the PC forums and other PC threads ON THIS FORUM ALONE, where you will find a magnitude of PC related problems. Then do the same for the CD Player forum, and other threads.....Wait:
No CD Player Forum? Correct. Not much to talk about except maybe different features and cost. The players are dedicated machines especially built for their purpose- playing CDs. They either do this well or they don't sell.
Not so with PCs. BTW: As much as it galls me to say this, if you ARE going to use MP3s, then ( ick) iPODS and similar players are actually better music sources than PCs, at least as electronically tested....{{{retch}}
Thanks, Joe.
Yup, I've read the horror stories from both sides over the years. In all honesty, both formats, PC and CD can have issues. Anything can break. Anything can be a piece of chit right out of the box. Take those Gemini top loaders for example. People were unloading them within weeks after their release. They had no buffer memory and would not read some discs.
There are poor quality pieces out there for both formats. Likewise, there are professional quality pieces available to play both formats. The good stuff is gonna cost ya, no matter the format. You've got to do yer homework and research the stuff before making a decision.
PCs can be built for the purpose of reproducing music. I'm not saying that you should load the software on your Dell and call yerself a DJ or karaoke host. Just sayin' that a custom machine can be built for music reproduction.
Most of the PC horror stories I've read either involve users with a cheap, off-the-rack Dell that's loaded with useless OEM software to sop up RAM... or the writers wont say what they're using for PC machinery. Rick gets calls all the time from people like that. They're not using the proper tools for the job. Ya can't build a skyscraper with tools you get at K-Mart. An off-the-rack lappytop isn't professional business equipment in this biz. It's a consumer item.
Don't get me wrong... I love my CDs. When a bride or wedding guest brings up a disc of special dance music, we can handle it. We'll stop stuffing CDs into this Pio when we're too old to load it anymore. I'm just sayin'... the folks who have been successful with PCs are working with business equipment that's been designed and built to handle the job.
Thoughts?
Yup, I've read the horror stories from both sides over the years. In all honesty, both formats, PC and CD can have issues. Anything can break. Anything can be a piece of chit right out of the box. Take those Gemini top loaders for example. People were unloading them within weeks after their release. They had no buffer memory and would not read some discs.
There are poor quality pieces out there for both formats. Likewise, there are professional quality pieces available to play both formats. The good stuff is gonna cost ya, no matter the format. You've got to do yer homework and research the stuff before making a decision.
PCs can be built for the purpose of reproducing music. I'm not saying that you should load the software on your Dell and call yerself a DJ or karaoke host. Just sayin' that a custom machine can be built for music reproduction.
Most of the PC horror stories I've read either involve users with a cheap, off-the-rack Dell that's loaded with useless OEM software to sop up RAM... or the writers wont say what they're using for PC machinery. Rick gets calls all the time from people like that. They're not using the proper tools for the job. Ya can't build a skyscraper with tools you get at K-Mart. An off-the-rack lappytop isn't professional business equipment in this biz. It's a consumer item.
Don't get me wrong... I love my CDs. When a bride or wedding guest brings up a disc of special dance music, we can handle it. We'll stop stuffing CDs into this Pio when we're too old to load it anymore. I'm just sayin'... the folks who have been successful with PCs are working with business equipment that's been designed and built to handle the job.
Thoughts?
Not so with PCs. BTW: As much as it galls me to say this, if you ARE going to use MP3s, then ( ick) iPODS and similar players are actually better music sources than PCs, at least as electronically tested....{{{retch}}
Joe,
This statement does not suprise me. Someone that doesn't use computers to DJ on a regular basis would not know how important the choice of sound card will have on the sound. Using a computer with a professional sound card vs an ipod or a cheap sound card that comes with a cheap laptop isn't even close.
It's like the difference between a top of the line professional Denon cd deck vs the $29 cd player available at walmart.
As you know, whatever music source you choose, there is a chain of components that get that media out through your speakers. Your media choice is only as good as the weakest part in your chain.
So, if your tests involved quality store bought cd's with a professional cd players and you compared that with a consumer grade mp3 player or computer sound card, I am not shocked that you feel mp3's are inferior.
If you want to give it a true test, compare an mp3 player like the denon hd2500 with quality ripped mp3's to any cd player and let us know the results.
Apparently you must have misread or didn't completely read my posts.
Starting with the tests. I sais I tested from DATA OUTPUT POINTS, not SOUND outputs, which is completely worthless when making the comparison because, - also as previously stated- if the SOURCE is corrupted ( MP3) then sound output means nothing.
Yes, better SOUND output sources can help HIDE MP3s's host of imperfections-ok?
Scott, I don't know what surprises you or not. I do know that I am an EE who has made and been credited for some pretty good technilogical leaps, and know my electronics. Testing equipment is not subjective, it's objective.
SO: All OPINIONS aside, MP3s are inferior to just about everything out there- Vinyl, Cds, and high end tape- Period. No if. No maybe. No could be. Electronically inferior, as tested by OBJECTIVE electronic equipment, not human ears. Inferior. Either do the research, if you can, or find a qualified EE to do it for you- if you so please.
PCs are multi-task machines being used to play music, and are inferior for the purpose- ELECTRONIC FACT- not subjective. They have A LOT OF PROBLEMS doing so, as PROVEN by the forums HERE, if you read them. CD players DO NOT- FACT. As for iPODS. hate them as I do,they ARE built for the specific purpose of playing MP3s, and consistantly show better outputs than THE BEST PC sound cards. Again- YOU do the research. Until you do, you are only repeating and guessing.
Folks, I normally stay relaxed, and ignore the silliness, but I think, for some reason, I've hit my bulls**t threshold. It may have started with Rick calling me a liar, I'm not sure. It may be that I watched 6 supposed friends sit around a table today and text each other and play games on their cells because they were too stupid or haven't enough of a life to carry on a conversation. Maybe it was watching W, who is illegally in office and kept there for appearances sake no matter how stupid he is or what damage he does. Maybe it's the fact that two morons have been chosen by delegates who are SUPPOSED to rep us as the major nominees, and neither is fit to be a bat boy in the minors. Maybe because there is a new reality TV show all about who wants to be Paris Hilton's new best friend. Maybe it's the store clerk who can't make change unless the register says what it is. Maybe it's the three person family with two big SUVs and a truck in the driveway ( and no business purpose) all of whom complain about gas prices..... I don't know..Maybe it's watching people in their twenties whos' joints crack when they walk, have the immune system of a gnat, and get winded walking across the street- but are AWESOME at "Grand Theft". Maybe it's because I see executives drag a company to ruin, yet speak of deserving a 10 mil parachute. Maybe it was watching the guv give AIG 84 BILLION, have those clowns then go spend half a mil at a spa, talk to the guv, and get ANOTHER 37 BILLION- then complain that the conditions may put them out of business.
I'm just tired of people who won't think or use common sense. SCOTT, Apologies to you up front. These comments are not directed specifically at you, it's just vent time.Folks, if you love your PC, and you love your MP3s, God bless you, enjoy, and be happy. But please stop making things up. Those of us who are trained, educated, and do our own research KNOW it's baloney.
You may not want to do the electronic testing, but you ARE on this forum, so I ASSUME that you read the posts. That means you MUST be aware of all the PC problems and costs. You DO read the posts, right?
I'm sure I'll catch it for this post, but honestly, I'm tired of being politically correct in the face of just plain dumb... WAKE UP! THINK! ON YOUR OWN! COMMON SENSE! READ THE POSTS!
Then again, maybe it's just me, and all of the above is really intelligent...
Joe tell us how you really feel. Lol
In the end you can play bongos through a Mr Microphone and those idiots you speak of with love above will praise you more for the performance you give than the device you use.
Thanks for sharing Joe and all the rest. Perhaps we just realize we are allcomfortable with what device we use and thats why we get return business.
In the end you can play bongos through a Mr Microphone and those idiots you speak of with love above will praise you more for the performance you give than the device you use.
Thanks for sharing Joe and all the rest. Perhaps we just realize we are allcomfortable with what device we use and thats why we get return business.
G
Guest
Guest
Audio quality is subjective, period. According to Joe, test results are objective. I'm fine with that, and am glad these tests are performed. I DJ most frequently in a hotel ballroom, not a test lab. While I don't have an engineering degree, or specific lab test results, is there no value in the admittedly anecdotal observations, using years of my own DJ experiences, here on a DJ forum? Is disagreeing with you some kind of attack on your engineering credentials? If so, why?
The source is lossy compressed. "Corrupted" is judgement call, and your interpretation. You're welcome to view it that way, but it's coloring your responses.
I believe "could be" inferior or superior is a valid point of view because of the sheer number of variables in any given piece of recorded music. Your own statement references "high end tape", not just tape. Similarly, an mp3 is not ONE thing, either.
If YOU read the forums, Joe, you'll find that the advice constantly being given is to NOT use your performance computer as a multi-task machine, despite the fact that it's possible. How many computer problems (including those mentioned on forums like this one) are "user error" - the kind you CANNOT make on a CD player? More options = more things that could go wrong, if you, the user, subject yourself to them. Your statements here cannot be fact, as stated: you're comparing to nothing. What are you claiming that computer playback is inferior to? Many, many recordings now are CREATED and/or recorded via computer (ever heard of a program called Protools?). Are you suggesting that digital recording is inferior?
I've had fewer playback problems via computer than I had when I was all CD based (or even vinyl-based, before that), and while others have had other experiences, I'm not alone in mine. I would have drawers fail, mistracking, skipping, sticking, etc., and I take good care of my CDs. Via computer, either EVERY file plays (and correctly), or none of them do (and it's usually some kind of config. error on my part). Claiming something, calling it fact, and using all caps doesn't make your opinion anything more than your opinion. I value your opinion, but it's still just your opinion, for the most part.
I do, and I use common sense. I can elaborate further on that, if you wish.
Joe, one last observation and a question that's always puzzled me about you. You're the CD purist here, but you're primarily a karoake host, is that correct? You talk about inferiority of certain methods of music playback, while playing "cover" versions, for people to sing with? Do you see any irony in this? You're coming from an odd perpsective to argue "keep it real", to me. From my more limited experiences with karaoke, I'll take the actual Earth, Wind & Fire over any studio band's attempts to make instrumental karaoke recreations. And I'm willing to bet many of these recordings were made, using computers, Joe.
The source is lossy compressed. "Corrupted" is judgement call, and your interpretation. You're welcome to view it that way, but it's coloring your responses.
I believe "could be" inferior or superior is a valid point of view because of the sheer number of variables in any given piece of recorded music. Your own statement references "high end tape", not just tape. Similarly, an mp3 is not ONE thing, either.
If YOU read the forums, Joe, you'll find that the advice constantly being given is to NOT use your performance computer as a multi-task machine, despite the fact that it's possible. How many computer problems (including those mentioned on forums like this one) are "user error" - the kind you CANNOT make on a CD player? More options = more things that could go wrong, if you, the user, subject yourself to them. Your statements here cannot be fact, as stated: you're comparing to nothing. What are you claiming that computer playback is inferior to? Many, many recordings now are CREATED and/or recorded via computer (ever heard of a program called Protools?). Are you suggesting that digital recording is inferior?
I've had fewer playback problems via computer than I had when I was all CD based (or even vinyl-based, before that), and while others have had other experiences, I'm not alone in mine. I would have drawers fail, mistracking, skipping, sticking, etc., and I take good care of my CDs. Via computer, either EVERY file plays (and correctly), or none of them do (and it's usually some kind of config. error on my part). Claiming something, calling it fact, and using all caps doesn't make your opinion anything more than your opinion. I value your opinion, but it's still just your opinion, for the most part.
I do, and I use common sense. I can elaborate further on that, if you wish.
Joe, one last observation and a question that's always puzzled me about you. You're the CD purist here, but you're primarily a karoake host, is that correct? You talk about inferiority of certain methods of music playback, while playing "cover" versions, for people to sing with? Do you see any irony in this? You're coming from an odd perpsective to argue "keep it real", to me. From my more limited experiences with karaoke, I'll take the actual Earth, Wind & Fire over any studio band's attempts to make instrumental karaoke recreations. And I'm willing to bet many of these recordings were made, using computers, Joe.
Apparently you must have misread or didn't completely read my posts.
Starting with the tests. I sais I tested from DATA OUTPUT POINTS, not SOUND outputs, which is completely worthless when making the comparison because, - also as previously stated- if the SOURCE is corrupted ( MP3) then sound output means nothing.
Yes, better SOUND output sources can help HIDE MP3s's host of imperfections-ok?
Scott, I don't know what surprises you or not. I do know that I am an EE who has made and been credited for some pretty good technilogical leaps, and know my electronics. Testing equipment is not subjective, it's objective.
SO: All OPINIONS aside, MP3s are inferior to just about everything out there- Vinyl, Cds, and high end tape- Period. No if. No maybe. No could be. Electronically inferior, as tested by OBJECTIVE electronic equipment, not human ears. Inferior. Either do the research, if you can, or find a qualified EE to do it for you- if you so please.
PCs are multi-task machines being used to play music, and are inferior for the purpose- ELECTRONIC FACT- not subjective. They have A LOT OF PROBLEMS doing so, as PROVEN by the forums HERE, if you read them. CD players DO NOT- FACT. As for iPODS. hate them as I do,they ARE built for the specific purpose of playing MP3s, and consistantly show better outputs that THE BEST PC sound cards. Again- YOU do the research. Until you do, you are only repeating and guessing.
Here's a fact for you. I've plugged an ipod into my system. I've also plugged a computer with a professional sound card into it. I know what sounds better. You can test things all day. Testing for things that simply won't matter to my customers doesn't make any sense to me. More and more DJ's are moving to computers. They see the benefits. Because it is new to them, they have challenges and are learning. You see these things as problems with computers. I see them as challenges with people that are trying to learn a new and better technology.
I'm just tired of people who won't think or use common sense. SCOTT, Apologies to you up front. These comments are not directed specifically at you, it's just vent time.Folks, if you love your PC, and you love your MP3s, God bless you, enjoy, and be happy. But please stop making things up. Those of us who are trained, educated, and do our own research KNOW it's baloney.
Yes, I am sorry. I admit it. I'm making it all up. CD's are superior for DJing in every way. I just thought i could trick someone else into going down the long lonely computer road that I did.
You may not want to do the electronic testing, but you ARE on this forum, so I ASSUME that you read the posts. That means you MUST be aware of all the PC problems and costs. You DO read the posts, right?
Apology accepted....but they do sound directed at me. I do read the posts. I never said PC's don't have problems. I said they had less problems for me that CD players did. You did read that, didn't you?
I'm sure I'll catch it for this post, but honestly, I'm tired of being politically correct in the face of just plain dumb... WAKE UP! THINK! ON YOUR OWN! COMMON SENSE! READ THE POSTS! Sorry if my opinions are dumb to you. Does this idea make common sense to you?....go to a show where a professional DJ is using a computer and see how the sound is and how the crowd reacts to it. That makes common sense to me. That is a good example of thinking on your own.
Then again, maybe it's just me, and all of the above is really intelligent...
Joe,
Sounds like you are ready for a vacation. Try to relax. you deserve it.
anyway,
I do have strong opinions about things, as you do. I do respect your opinions. . However, there are some things we obviously disagree on. My opinions are based on my experience. I've used cd's for years, and now I've used computers for years. Regardless of your opinions, I KNOW what my customers liked and didn't like. My point all along was that my customers simply cannot hear a difference in the quality of mp3's and cd's. Luckily, they don't bring the meters you have to wedding receptions. I don't know and don't care what meters say. I care about what my customers say.
You can keep saying how inferior computers are in playing music. You can keep saying that DJ's with computers have all kinds of problems. You can keep saying customers WANT you to play these much better sounding cds. I disagree. STRONGLY
I do respect your right to choose whatever media you find yourself most comfortable with. I totally disagree with you telling others that are considiring advancing to newer technology about problems and pitfalls that many of us have found simply not to be true.
I have attempted to do the research. What I have found is that iPods tend to color the sound (i.e. smiley face EQ) in a way that will help to make tiny little ear buds sound OK for the average consumer. I have loaded a white noise signal onto an iPod and RTA'd the results...I got a smiley face response out.
I have tested my PC sound card and found that it produces a flat response across the 20-20kHz range. My sound card also adds less noise to the signal than the iPod did. In the interest of full disclosure, the iPod did not add enough noise that I would care about it.
In my mind, a flat response from the PC sound card is "objectively better" than the smiley face response from the iPod.
So, what tests have you done or read that lead you to the idea that an iPod "consistantly show better outputs that THE BEST PC sound cards"? I would like to read the same reports.
Folks, above is the first post for this thread. We have strayed far away from the original question. I have considered all relevant answers and am making a decision soon. I don't see any need to keep this thread open as it has gotten very far off topic and there seems to have been a lot of arguing - I was not looking for an argument and not looking so much for any sort of debate. I was seeking answers. Thanks to all those who posted relevant answers!
Ask a group of 20 DJs a question -- you will get 20 different answers, 4 arguments, 3 guys posting bikini pics, and the conversation will eventually turn to how much you charge...
It's normal
I wanted answers, but the answers were done pretty much by the end of the second page, as far as I could tell. After that, it was all arguing.
I wanted answers, but the answers were done pretty much by the end of the second page, as far as I could tell. After that, it was all arguing.
As long as there are keyboards and DJs -- there will never be enough answers...
Either way, Joe's wrong, and we're right
Hmm...well, in light of everything, I'm going to just stick with CDs - not even MP3 CDs, because there really isn't any efficient way to do it. I'm just going to purchase more cases - nicer cases, and keep collecting. If CDs seriously get phased out, then I'll look at a media controller. Thanks for all the relevant input, folks!
Thanks for all the relevant input, folks!
G
Guest
Guest
I haven't RTA tested... anything, but I have a question here.
Ipods have EQ settings. When you tested it, did you test it at "flat" EQ?