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Guest
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The consultations were unlimited for me as well. I just based pricing on a 20 hour average for weddings, a 10 hour average for parties, and a 30 hour average for Mitzvahs.
The consultations were unlimited for me as well. I just based pricing on a 20 hour average for weddings, a 10 hour average for parties, and a 30 hour average for Mitzvahs.
DjDennis
RIP- My Dad (2011), Sister (2013) and Mum (2017)
I have a list of over 300 venues on all aspects i need to remember
see image attached on sheet of back of forms i keep at every event!!
Attachments
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Guest
Guest
wow, I never realized this thread was going on along with mine.
Should have combined the 2 and saved time and bandwith.
Should have combined the 2 and saved time and bandwith.
DjDennis
RIP- My Dad (2011), Sister (2013) and Mum (2017)
yeah thats what I have used over the years to keep track of all the venues I go to
I should update it more as I have more on it now days!!
I should update it more as I have more on it now days!!
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Guest
Guest
Having a database of venues and their idiosincrecies (Sp?) is a very good idea and I did have one but differences between banquet managers, facilitators, or coordinators even at the same venue always necessitated a meeting.
As good as any of us is at determining "what a job will take," there are always variables, nothing falls dead-on to-the-minute, and in the end, we are forced to admit that we are really basing our pricing on an average for any given task, regardless of how well or accurately that average is computed. That's all that's being done.
Well, each photographer works pricing differently, but the answer as to why dj's do not is simple. With what you do, each hour of work done results in a physically tangible and somewhat obvious result that is lasting, and is used again and again. It is easier to charge an hourly rate when this is the case. Doing an installe, what YOU are doing when a client is not present is obvious when they come back into the room the next time. Our behind the scenes event work is not like that.
In the case of dj's, the pre-event portion in essentially a non-tangible for the client. They get a piece of paper or an attachment delivered to them that is the itinerary for their event based on our meetings, and they have no way of knowing or comprehending what goes into it, and this time they are paying for is unsupervised by them and they can't really comprehend what is going in during this time. This is why a lot of dj's prefer to just "tell" clients, or even in extreme cases themselves, that they are not "CHARGING" the clients for this time, when in fact they are.
In the client's mind, they are getting a 4, 5, or 6 hour chunk of performance time for their rate. Even though they are actually paying for all the behind the scenes, that chunk of time contracted for is the only tangible they have to quantify and qualify our rate with. After the fact, that final product delivered, the performance time, is either going to justify the rate they paid in their eyes, or it is not. That is why many dj's, at least for appearances sakes, charge solely based on an hourly or flat rate for that performance time alone. Other dj's, like Tom and myself, prefer to educate them on the fact that yes - you ARE paying for more than the 4 hours you get the day-of. And there is nothing "wrong," let alone unethical about that.
That's why a 4 hour reception with 6 hrs of prep/admin time is charged (at least by me) the same as a 4 hour reception that takes closer to 10 or 15 hrs of behind the scenes time.
So while it might seem to some that our pricing is opportunistic, I would argue just the opposite - that for myself, and I am sure a lot of guys here, we end up EATING it on jobs more times than we end up making a killing and skating on by. The more intricate and involved wedding with more games and activities, personalized bridal party intro scripts, etc, is going to see us eat it and come out on the short end of that "averages" stick.
The alternative to this approach is what many dj's do, which is not have published or fixed prices or rates at all and develop varying and seemingly arbitrary (from the clients perspective, and even from mine in most cases) prices per-event. That is never going to be a path I am going to take, and I'm not going to line-item time and work in an effort to nickel-and-dime, so a flat-rate based on avg time per-event it is.
Sure, some weddings will have been easier for me and some harder. Nothing wrong with that.
Well, the pricing should change for service providers by event type, but I am right with you in that in the industry as a whole, these margins are in many cases arbitrary and have no real science or tangible justification behind them.
In my case, prices are based on hourly charges for both performance time, and behind the scenes work (based on an average per-event) and add in fixed costs and overhead.
That being the case, my price for a 4 hour backyard birthday party or BBQ and a 4 hour wedding reception for 200 people are the same with the exception of:
*An increased (simply doubled) hourly performance rate that I figure as paying myself hourly because dj'ing and mc'ing a wedding is a LOT more complicated and takes a whole different set of skills.
*More pre-event planning/paperwork time. An additional consultation figured in for planning. Time for music editing, etc.
Those REAL WORLD differences per-event are why MY prices go up for a wedding, and it is far from simply a "magical" or mysterious increase based on the word "wedding."
Even my laughable profit margin percentage (which would be a joke in the eyes of many dj's) stays the same for a backyard BBQ and a wedding.
Figured that at my 4 hour reception rate of $750, with all of the admin and pre-event planning time and all the stuff that goes into an individual event I am making about $30 an hour - which, Mike, I'm willing to bet is a heck of a lot less than YOU bill per hour... (?)
STILL think THIS DJ "has it easy"?!?!
As good as any of us is at determining "what a job will take," there are always variables, nothing falls dead-on to-the-minute, and in the end, we are forced to admit that we are really basing our pricing on an average for any given task, regardless of how well or accurately that average is computed. That's all that's being done.
Well, each photographer works pricing differently, but the answer as to why dj's do not is simple. With what you do, each hour of work done results in a physically tangible and somewhat obvious result that is lasting, and is used again and again. It is easier to charge an hourly rate when this is the case. Doing an installe, what YOU are doing when a client is not present is obvious when they come back into the room the next time. Our behind the scenes event work is not like that.
In the case of dj's, the pre-event portion in essentially a non-tangible for the client. They get a piece of paper or an attachment delivered to them that is the itinerary for their event based on our meetings, and they have no way of knowing or comprehending what goes into it, and this time they are paying for is unsupervised by them and they can't really comprehend what is going in during this time. This is why a lot of dj's prefer to just "tell" clients, or even in extreme cases themselves, that they are not "CHARGING" the clients for this time, when in fact they are.
In the client's mind, they are getting a 4, 5, or 6 hour chunk of performance time for their rate. Even though they are actually paying for all the behind the scenes, that chunk of time contracted for is the only tangible they have to quantify and qualify our rate with. After the fact, that final product delivered, the performance time, is either going to justify the rate they paid in their eyes, or it is not. That is why many dj's, at least for appearances sakes, charge solely based on an hourly or flat rate for that performance time alone. Other dj's, like Tom and myself, prefer to educate them on the fact that yes - you ARE paying for more than the 4 hours you get the day-of. And there is nothing "wrong," let alone unethical about that.
That's why a 4 hour reception with 6 hrs of prep/admin time is charged (at least by me) the same as a 4 hour reception that takes closer to 10 or 15 hrs of behind the scenes time.
So while it might seem to some that our pricing is opportunistic, I would argue just the opposite - that for myself, and I am sure a lot of guys here, we end up EATING it on jobs more times than we end up making a killing and skating on by. The more intricate and involved wedding with more games and activities, personalized bridal party intro scripts, etc, is going to see us eat it and come out on the short end of that "averages" stick.
The alternative to this approach is what many dj's do, which is not have published or fixed prices or rates at all and develop varying and seemingly arbitrary (from the clients perspective, and even from mine in most cases) prices per-event. That is never going to be a path I am going to take, and I'm not going to line-item time and work in an effort to nickel-and-dime, so a flat-rate based on avg time per-event it is.
Sure, some weddings will have been easier for me and some harder. Nothing wrong with that.
Well, the pricing should change for service providers by event type, but I am right with you in that in the industry as a whole, these margins are in many cases arbitrary and have no real science or tangible justification behind them.
In my case, prices are based on hourly charges for both performance time, and behind the scenes work (based on an average per-event) and add in fixed costs and overhead.
That being the case, my price for a 4 hour backyard birthday party or BBQ and a 4 hour wedding reception for 200 people are the same with the exception of:
*An increased (simply doubled) hourly performance rate that I figure as paying myself hourly because dj'ing and mc'ing a wedding is a LOT more complicated and takes a whole different set of skills.
*More pre-event planning/paperwork time. An additional consultation figured in for planning. Time for music editing, etc.
Those REAL WORLD differences per-event are why MY prices go up for a wedding, and it is far from simply a "magical" or mysterious increase based on the word "wedding."
Even my laughable profit margin percentage (which would be a joke in the eyes of many dj's) stays the same for a backyard BBQ and a wedding.
Figured that at my 4 hour reception rate of $750, with all of the admin and pre-event planning time and all the stuff that goes into an individual event I am making about $30 an hour - which, Mike, I'm willing to bet is a heck of a lot less than YOU bill per hour... (?)
STILL think THIS DJ "has it easy"?!?!
Actually, I bill, on average $30 an hour. It just depends on the service, the package, etc. My lowest rate is about $10/hr and my highest is $100/hr. Last year I billed on average $32.49 per hour, this year so far I have billed at $33.32 per hour if you do not count Pro Bono work.
But thank you for the thoughtful answer. I guess because we are one of the easy weddings, I see that I will end up paying for someone else to get a million meetings and every little intricate thing. Just like a florist adding on 30% for the exact same flowers because it was a wedding and the rehearsal dinner space invent a room rental fee because it was a rehearsal dinner and not a birthday party (they offer no perks for this extra money). I had not run into this with the two DJ's I am talking to but some of these threads made me wonder. I appreciate that you guys are doing back work (I often do research, renderings, blueprints, etc) but I charge different rates for different amounts of back work. An install that takes a complete set of prints bills out differently than a theater show who only need a light plot.
Even though I am not paying, it just stuck out to me a little.
Mike
No prob Mike... Many of us here have thought out our pricing, and even though we have all thought it out, not all of us have the same philosophy on pricing as I outlined for myself above - and unfortunately there ARE plenty (in this industry, not here per se) who are just as opportunistic in their pricing structures as you intimated above or previously thought.
Like you, I bill differently in my rates for different types of work I do for an event. I've never brought it up in the forum or anywhere else because my approach would probably be ridiculed and laughed out of consideration, but it is probably the most sober and honest pricing assessment you will find of any mobile dj anywhere.
EVERYthing in my rate structure is the result of a cost analysis and $$$ allocation. In my rates, I pay MYSELF from an event as if I were an employee. All behind the scenes work I do gets billed at.... u ready for this.... $12/hr! My performance time I allocate $12/hr for nnon-weddings, and $25/hr for weddings! That's IT!
EVERYTHING else is stuff like overhead costs, equipment rental/depreciation calculations, music subscription and upkeep costs, licensing, advertising, etc... Then, there is a 10% profit margin tacked on. 10% - that's IT! Most dj's who are seriosuly putting thought and real-world calculations into their prices are figuring anywhere from 20%-30% profit margin tacked on.
So real world, running a business like a business, and looking at it all on paper - I get paid less per hour dj'ing than most any guy here would consider leaving the house to flip burgers or bag groceries for.
I consider myself as honest and ethical as they come - and I try to translate this into my business - so it is disheartening when customers, or the random onlooker says "Wow... he's making almost $200/hr for NOTHING... I wish I had that job!"
They have no idea where those numbers come from, or where the money goes - they just assume they do because all they have to tie that figure to is the couple hours of performance in front of their eyes.
If I were truly pocketing $200/hr per-gig, I would probably have to be charging between $5K-$6K per event!
What's even sadder is when dj's themselves think the same way as the general public... Your typical Craigslist dj for example. He thinks - and even says in his ads that his equipment is "already paid for" so he can just dj for you and charge for his time to perform. But he's not charging for business expenses, and isn't even RUNNING a business. If he was, he'd realize that while his equipment my be "paid for," he still needs to charge for depreciation and upkeep.
There'll always be guys like that, and always a market for them.
Like you, I bill differently in my rates for different types of work I do for an event. I've never brought it up in the forum or anywhere else because my approach would probably be ridiculed and laughed out of consideration, but it is probably the most sober and honest pricing assessment you will find of any mobile dj anywhere.
EVERYthing in my rate structure is the result of a cost analysis and $$$ allocation. In my rates, I pay MYSELF from an event as if I were an employee. All behind the scenes work I do gets billed at.... u ready for this.... $12/hr! My performance time I allocate $12/hr for nnon-weddings, and $25/hr for weddings! That's IT!
EVERYTHING else is stuff like overhead costs, equipment rental/depreciation calculations, music subscription and upkeep costs, licensing, advertising, etc... Then, there is a 10% profit margin tacked on. 10% - that's IT! Most dj's who are seriosuly putting thought and real-world calculations into their prices are figuring anywhere from 20%-30% profit margin tacked on.
So real world, running a business like a business, and looking at it all on paper - I get paid less per hour dj'ing than most any guy here would consider leaving the house to flip burgers or bag groceries for.
I consider myself as honest and ethical as they come - and I try to translate this into my business - so it is disheartening when customers, or the random onlooker says "Wow... he's making almost $200/hr for NOTHING... I wish I had that job!"
They have no idea where those numbers come from, or where the money goes - they just assume they do because all they have to tie that figure to is the couple hours of performance in front of their eyes.
If I were truly pocketing $200/hr per-gig, I would probably have to be charging between $5K-$6K per event!
What's even sadder is when dj's themselves think the same way as the general public... Your typical Craigslist dj for example. He thinks - and even says in his ads that his equipment is "already paid for" so he can just dj for you and charge for his time to perform. But he's not charging for business expenses, and isn't even RUNNING a business. If he was, he'd realize that while his equipment my be "paid for," he still needs to charge for depreciation and upkeep.
There'll always be guys like that, and always a market for them.
G
Guest
Guest
Not trying to re-hijack the thread but i thought you deserved an answer for this one.
The mechanic does not charge by the hour (although a number of hours is reflected for each item on the bill) they charge by flat rate book (a new one comes out each year). This book list every item in every vehicle and gives them a time to R&R. Let's say you are having a new altenator put in your vehicle the book may say it takes 1/2 hour to replace it, but most good mechanics can pull the old one off and have a new one installed in 10 minutes or less, you still get billed for the 1/2 hour.
That's how I do it, especially in production quotes.
I know for any given gear or fixture, and it's installation method how long it will take to put up. So, if I need seven discreet lights on the celing, and the "book" time is 20 min. per fixture you'll invoice is for 2.5 hrs labor even if I manage to do it quicker, or it takes a little longer.
I you hire a DJ package for which I allow a 2 hour setup, that's reflected (though not itemized) in the price even if I know at your venue I'll be setup in 45 minutes.
That is what I meant by "you don't actually pay for the time he spent". It is dictated by the book. That is the same rule i use in my business when installing Artwork. Sorry for the mixup.
If I'm feeling dumb enough to take on an event blind- very rare- 30% add on. I'm working without a deposit, for people I never met. I'm going in blind in regard to setup, my home prep time is limited, and yes, they want me NOW.
Just to be clear, I generally just say no....
Yes, because they rarely make it their business to call us with any changes that they may have made.
Oops...this IS a pricing thread, so I'll say something about that:
While I am certainly aware of local market pricing by the competition, both part and full time, I charge according to my own needs, keeping the profit I wish to make as the focal point. I don't charge by comparison to others. I charge what MY time is worth to ME, and what I believe MY skills will be worth to the client. Seems to be working out OK so far.....
Allow me, if you will. What many won't say, but is equally true, is that we charge more for a wedding ( and in my case, large corporate events since leaving the weddings to others) because we CAN.
In most cases these large soirees have the BUDGET for it. When the wedding budget runs 50 or 60K, a thousand or two for THE MAIN ENTERTAINMENT and the driving force of the reception is a drop in the bucket.
Of course there's more prep for a wedding, more personal details required, the dealing with many "bosses", more special music and other requests, etc...
A birthday is something that that comes once a year. A wedding is supposed to be a once in a lifetime event, and usually requires more exacting planning to detail.
Of course there are those who are very comfortable walking in and doing a "formula" wedding, with very little planning. Not my style, but no knock either. If they make more for less time, AND the client is satisfied, this could be considered good business, I guess. It's not for me only due to my personal pride- good or bad.
That help at all?
At least you are honest about it. If the market will bear it, then it is not up to me to dissuade you from charging more because you can.
But it does sadden me inside.
Mike
That's just capitalism my man... pure and simple! But fear not - for all those who make an effort to charge the maximum that their market will bear, or even choose to try to push that boundary or exceed it, there will be an even higher pressure to actually convince clients that you are worth what you are charging... And if you can't tie that to tangibles, it's harder to do.
So fear not - Mr. 2K wedding reception who is maxing or exceeding what he can charge in his market "because he can" will leave a much SMALLER trail of destruction than Mr. Craigslist DJ Hack who charges $300 to make a shambles of people's wedding.
Well, for instance, a recent karaoke situation. I recently picked up a new venue. I went for a walk through ten days in advance, with the show scheduled for Thursdays. I checked out the placement and connections for the large monitor that I would be using. The monitor was right behind me and all I needed was a 6 foot RCA connector- beautiful.
I came in on the first Thursday only to find a monitor change that required me to run an S video cable 30 feet away to a central box. ( yeah, I had one, but only due to use at another venue)
Oh, you're not doing karaoke at a wedding? How about some sort of video presentation?
What if the B&G's wishes for the layout differ from the diagram the venue has made up? I've had that happen, and if I hadn't checked, I would have set up in the wrong place.
Does the venue run multiple events? Some use temporary sliding walls to break up rooms. How sure are you that you will have the room you need at THIS event?
New furniture and carpeting? Possible effect on sound?
Any construction being done that will hamper loading and unloading?
There are some that use house systems- THAT can have changes at any time.
etc......
It shouldn't really. First, in my case, I don't charge more just because it's a wedding or a corporate event, though I admit that I take it into consideration. It's still more about the prep, event size ( meaning more, larger, and heavier equipment for a large event) etc...
Also, it's a chance to even up for all the bar venues that I work...