Bar & Club How Would You Have Reacted

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Click on each pic and read below it as each pic tells its own story. I did not want to display the ugly mess here.
http://www.ourdjtalk.com/album.php?albumid=37
Well houston,

You lied to us :sqwink:. You said this entire circumstance was regarding a club. Those picture depict a dorm room party closet. From the uneven "speaker stands" saved from a dumpster, the purchased from a garage-sale "audio system," to the masking tape electrical/fire hazard "cabling," not one of those images suggests they are even trying to create a club.

If they were paying you more than $25 a night, you were their largest expense.

My garage has a better and more professional sound system than that, and the gear is all aged, depreciated, no longer in service antiques.

I wouldn't plug a cell phone charger into that system, let alone a valuable lappy. Run, Forrest, Run!!!
 
thanks for clarifying my thoughts Canute. Im wondering how much you need this place to continue coming back for more. Its quite apparent no matter what you do a turd will remain a turd and if you are in fact giving away your service all I can think is that the economy must make it tough to leave even a measly portion of money on the table for you to continue providing in this skid row location.
 
Well houston,

You lied to us :sqwink:. You said this entire circumstance was regarding a club. Those picture depict a dorm room party closet. From the uneven speaker stands saved from a dumpster, the purchased from a garage-sale audio system, to the masking tape electrical/fire hazard cabling, not one of those images suggests they are even trying to create a club.

If they were paying you more than $25 a night, you were their largest expense.

My garage has a better and more professional sound system than that, and the gear is all aged, depreciated, no longer in service antiques.

I wouldn't plug a cell phone charger into that system, let alone a valuable lappy. Run, Forrest, Run!!!

Club is big but oddly shaped. It wraps around a square area that houses elevator and bathrooms. I cannot recall the square footage but it is large when you consider upstairs and downstairs. I am not afraid to say it, I charged $200.00 per Saturday night and $150.00 per Friday night. (All I had to bring was my Laptop, Hard Drive and Headphone/Mike) I had a Birthday party there in January and brought in my own sound equipment, the place was packed. I will be having a Toga Party there this Friday using my own sound system. If this helps any, it is a Lifestyle club. The lounge upstairs is very nice. In my opinion, thats where the club should have been.
You are correct! I am the major expense and based on what he pays for equipment, he really cannot afford me. This Friday I am getting my fee plus a percentage of the door. The Toga Party is my Production.

All I was trying to do was help him make the right decisions to buy quality gear but he does not get it. On my recommendation, he did buy a Furman PL-Plus C, A DBX 1231 Equalizer and a Newmark C3-FX Mixer. He was headed in the right direction but feel back on his old mentality.
When I give a production, I have a following, that is why he wants me around.
 
Rox while I may agree with you on a number of your points, I also realize that I live in the real world...... :sqbiggrin:



Standard club work is ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY nothing like private mobile event work.

Standard club prep is ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY nothing like private mobile event prep.

Standard club compensation is ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY nothing like private mobile event compensation.

Standard club expectations are ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY nothing like private mobile event expectations.

Standard club dj responsibilities are ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY nothing like private mobile event responsibilities.

There is no expectation or responsibility for the dj to provide back up equipment in a typical club relationship.

There is no expectation or responsibility for the dj to provide equipment maintenance in a typical club relationship.

There is no expectation or responsibility for the dj to provide equipment installation, repairs or replacement in a typical club relationship.

There is an expectation or responsibility for the dj to provide a legal music library in a typical club relationship.

There is an expectation or responsibility for the dj to provide the expected level of mixing, crowd reading, and performance talent in a typical club relationship.

There is an expectation or responsibility for the dj to behave, at the very least, as a responsible and proper club representative or employee in a typical club relationship.

There is an expectation or responsibility for the dj to alert the management of equipment problems and issues in a typical club relationship.

There is an expectation and responsibility for the club to provide substantial warning to the dj when any equipment requirement or provisions change or are altered in a typical club relationship.

There is an expectation and responsibility for the club to provide all the necessary and safe, functional equipment in a typical club relationship.

All those reasons are why houston did exactly what any experienced club/bar jock with legitimate equipment and safety concerns would have done.
 
Rox while I may agree with you on a number of your points, I also realize that I live in the real world...... :sqbiggrin:
Certainly, just take the medicine that the nice man in the clean white coat has for you.:sqwink:

Chuckster,

What you, and joe, and Tuck, all top shelf bros, were doing was applying a set of standards from a fully functional and successful system to a disfunctional system and one that does not reward, warrant, appreciate, nor expect such standards.

Clubland requires a completely different set of non-performance/business behaviors and expectations. Again, I'm basing that on my limited 25+ years in the mix.

P.S. I though you lived in Hawaii?
 
I understand Roxerator,,,, I've done the club thing, yes it was years ago, but from the club posts that I have seen, they haven't changed...

The best thing about club gigs? The chicks! Come on now.. we all know that!

But my point was, as I made in another thread here, is that I personally believe, that no matter what the gig, I feel that I give them each equal respect.

That means caring back up gear, prepping, venue site inspections, a willingness to take a bite in the butt to make the show work.

More pride in the job well done- less ego....

But that is just me in my real world on Maui! :)
 
thanks for clarifying my thoughts Canute. Im wondering how much you need this place to continue coming back for more. Its quite apparent no matter what you do a turd will remain a turd and if you are in fact giving away your service all I can think is that the economy must make it tough to leave even a measly portion of money on the table for you to continue providing in this skid row location.

Jon,
When I was first introduced to the man back in November at his older location, he had heard about my results at the club in the resort where I DJd for 4 years. I helped build that club and consequently the attendance at the resort (That owner there knew quality gear compared to this one).
He told me he knew nothing about Clubs and equipment and wanted me to help. I figured that by helping him to make the club successful that I would also be helping myself. I had no idea that he was so ignorant as to the importance of quality gear, especially in a club. I am glad I stood my ground about my fee from day one! Had I seen that he was really intent on improving the gear I may have given him a break on my fee for a limited period of time. Maybe one day he will learn.
 
I disagree with the following statements:

Standard club work is ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY nothing like private mobile event work.

Standard club expectations are ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY nothing like private mobile event expectations.

Standard club dj responsibilities are ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY nothing like private mobile event responsibilities.

Different, sure.. NOTHING LIKE?

"Nothing like" does not always equal "lower". I've found, in some cases, the expectations are higher.

There is no expectation or responsibility for the dj to provide back up equipment in a typical club relationship.

There is no expectation or responsibility for the dj to provide equipment maintenance in a typical club relationship.

There is no expectation or responsibility for the dj to provide equipment installation, repairs or replacement in a typical club relationship.

That varies from club to club, and situation to situation, period. I don't think blanket statements of this type apply.

There is an expectation and responsibility for the club to provide substantial warning to the dj when any equipment requirement or provisions change or are altered in a typical club relationship.

There is an expectation and responsibility for the club to provide all the necessary and safe, functional equipment in a typical club relationship.

All those reasons are why houston did exactly what any experienced club/bar jock with legitimate equipment and safety concerns would have done.

While these "expectations" would be nice, when you work for a club owner, your arrangements with that club owner are between you and that club.

I can supply my own club resume, if for some reason that's required for me to disagree with some of you.

You can make as many claims and "bullet points" as you like. It doesn't make them accurate, it just makes you look more desperate to show others how "right" you are, which is silly to me, because there is no right or wrong, simply opinions, and I believe that's what houston asked for.
 
Canute originally I thought you were giving him a reduced rate and thats why you got there 30 minutes prior. Im confused cause you are now saying that you got there one hour prior and are getting your full rate. Do you charge different rates per the night?
 
Canute originally I thought you were giving him a reduced rate and thats why you got there 30 minutes prior. Im confused cause you are now saying that you got there one hour prior and are getting your full rate. Do you charge different rates per the night?

Jon,
Let me clarify again. I ALWAYS arrive at ANY gig early. To connect my laptop, HD and Headphone/Mike should only take 15mins. That night I arrived at 8.00pm, took my stuff in and started chatting with one of the people there. About 9.15PM I went to turn on the system to get sound going so I could start unpacking my gear. That is when I noticed the mess. I immediately started to see what I could do to fix things when I noticed that the mixer and EQ were not even in the chain, yet had cables connected to them. (The condition of the speaker wires is what broke this camel's back.) I did not have the tools to fix them right there and then. After assessing how much time it would take I knew I would not be able to finish in time. Thats when I called him on the phone and he said "I'll be right there". This was about 8.25pm
He got there at 8.30 and proceeded to turn on the system. Yes, muddy sound came out. What do you expect from computer to Pyle amp to Defective Pyle speakers with blown high ends? He acted like there was nothing wrong.
I was not about to plug MY laptop where his computer jacks were in the amp. Besides which there was no place to connect my headphones or mike. I needed a mixer. he said that the mixer and EQ were both blown (Which turned out to be false) I offered to help him reconfigure things on Monday which I did. At that time I left. Approx 8.35 - 8.40
Last week Monday 4/6, I had made him a package deal for the rest of the month including my production of the Toga Party this coming Friday. that is the reason why I was back there to DJ. This weekend will be my last since he still owed a portion for the rest of the month. Based on what I received on 4/6 He will have gotten his money's worth by this coming Saturday. If he has more money then I have more time if I am available.
Does this clarify things a bit better?
 
my point is now going to be much more clear. In light of more detail. I would likely not have agreed to any more gigs on his gear after the first experience. I would have offered my gear for the events you brought in to the place but nothing more.How can you soar with Eagles when ya hang with turkeys.
 
Jon,
When I was first introduced to the man back in November at his older location, he had heard about my results at the club in the resort where I DJd for 4 years. I helped build that club and consequently the attendance at the resort (That owner there knew quality gear compared to this one).
He told me he knew nothing about Clubs and equipment and wanted me to help. I figured that by helping him to make the club successful that I would also be helping myself. I had no idea that he was so ignorant as to the importance of quality gear, especially in a club. I am glad I stood my ground about my fee from day one! Had I seen that he was really intent on improving the gear I may have given him a break on my fee for a limited period of time. Maybe one day he will learn.
Houston, Chuck, anyone else,

If you are giving something away, time, valuable knowledge, effort, without direct, immediate, or clearly assignable compensation, you have rendered it worthless.

I was, very early in my dj exploits, victim of my own overzealous, uninformed, inexperienced willingness to give away something now for the prospect of something valuable in the future, ie, I'll configure/design and install/set up your gear, even find the best sources and perform for little or no compensation so that when the place blows up, I'll be in, right?

Well,that kinda, sorta, paid off once, in twenty years and dozens of attempts. Unfortunately, for me, it was early on in the process, actually on the second attempt, so I was cursed with having had a high risk-low pay back success. Not since have such short sighted investments paid off and the balance sheet, from the various failed attempts with that practice, is so unbalanced that I suspect there are not enough red markers in Marks-a-lots inventory to color the complete sheet.

Chuck's practice of treating club gigs with the same sense of responsibility for contingency as private, mobile jobs may be beneficial in his experience, but not mine.

That is not to say clubs deserve unprofessional, unethical treatment, but certainly different in many aspects. Show up on time, keep the music current and effective, behaving in an ethical manner, provide the best possible performance, improving your skills, treating patrons with politeness, the stuff you expect any employee should not have to be told more than once to do.

Hauling back up equipment falls substantially outside the scope of a club dj's responsibility and duties.

Why would anyone provide back up equipment and expose their gear to normal wear and potential, eventual damage, not to mention the additional liability, at club gigs where it neither expected nor compensated for? That is not smart bid-niz.
 
Joe, we are running around in circles here. I'll reply one line at a time.

1.When I left in February, everything even though was crap, was running fine. I expected at least that when I returned last week Saturday. I arrived an hour early in case I had to make space for my laptop. It took me over 4 hours between Monday and yesterday to fix all the mess. So in other words are you suggesting that I should have known beforehand to arrive at 5.00pm last Saturday (BTW with no soldering iron and test equipment) to be able to start at 9.00pm?

2. It was not a DJs responsibility to have back up equipment (Except a laptop/hard drive if that is what he is using )for a Club that provides its own sound equipment.

3. Yes I carry back up when I am using my own full sound system.

4. After I left on Saturday night, the Club did what they have been doing for the past two months. Namely, load some songs on their computer and let it run like a jukebox. It was not like i left them without music.

5. For Pete's sake, there was no way for me to use a microphone, mine or theirs as it was Computer to amp to speakers.

6. It was the owner's responsibility to call me and tell me that some of the equipment was not working or connected and I would have gone there on Thursday to check out the situation. He had noise (Sound) coming out of two boxes and in his opinion all was well. Wait until I post the rest of the pics I took yesterday and you will get a better idea of his mentality.

I know I should let this go, but I can't for some dumb reason:

1) given past history, yes, but even earlier- a day or two- just in case the system had the expected problems, or the had to find another DJ. Whenever I work a venue that I haven't worked before OR worked recently, I go in for a pre-check no later than 2 days in advance- and that's WITHOUT knowledge of previous problems.


2) You are absolutely correct. It is not the DJ's responsibility to carry backup- but we do to uphold the quality of our shows- as you do when you carry your equipment.

However, I'm not just talking about HAVING back-up. As previously stated, you didn't want to lug it for the low pay. No problem, I'm with you 100%! But if that's the case, working without a net, I would have made DAMN sure to go in a few days early for a thorough system check of the only equipment available to me. What possible choice would I have?

I DO understand that you were backed up time and work-wise.

I DO understand that they played the jukebox instead- but that's not a DJ. They didn't deliver what they promised.

Skip to 6) Yes, it was the owner's responsibility to call if there was a problem, and they didn't. They screwed up. They were wrong.

....and going in early on your own would still have given adaquate time for repair, or paying more for you to lug, or another DJ.

This situation was working on the edge, and in this case everyone fell off.

YOU: went home- No pay, no exposure, no referrals, possible rep damage, a lost night.


THEM: No DJ, probably lost some customers and some projected income, some damage to their rep,

Please, please, PLEASE understand that I am not trying to bust on you. I am only posting with the sincere wish to put across that preparation is EVERYTHING.
 
Certainly, just take the medicine that the nice man in the clean white coat has for you.:sqwink:

Chuckster,

What you, and joe, and Tuck, all top shelf bros, were doing was applying a set of standards from a fully functional and successful system to a disfunctional system and one that does not reward, warrant, appreciate, nor expect such standards.

Clubland requires a completely different set of non-performance/business behaviors and expectations. Again, I'm basing that on my limited 25+ years in the mix.


I do over 250 club shows per year, outside of private events. I have to disagree. I actually built my performance/business behaviors FROM working in clubs, and bought them with me to private events. :sqcool:
 
The clubs I worked at would advertise the DJ, my name was on the door, my rep, but we, as Steve mentioned, should remember that what was asked in the original post was "what we would do" not how we feel about things...

This all boils down to everyone having their own thoughts on what they would do, as determined by how they choose to run their business and how they perceive each event.

While I may disagree with a lot that has been said here, and yes, I would have done it differently, the bottom line is doing what we feel we should.

Does that make it wrong or right? No, that would just depend on how it fits in your business plans and ideas.
 
While these "expectations" would be nice, when you work for a club owner, your arrangements with that club owner are between you and that club.
Forgive me for not also mentioning the sun rose this morning.:sqwink:

Somethings should be understood.



I can supply my own club resume, if for some reason that's required for me to disagree with some of you.
Unnecessary, you've never been anything but straightforward, why would you start acting different today?

P.S. I'll bore you with mine, if you have already completed counting the holes in the ceiling tiles and need something to do.:sqbiggrin:

You can make as many claims and "bullet points" as you like. It doesn't make them accurate, it just makes you look more desperate to show others how "right" you are, which is silly to me, because there is no right or wrong, simply opinions, and I believe that's what houston asked for.
Where's the beef?
 
I do over 250 club shows per year, outside of private events. I have to disagree. I actually built my performance/business behaviors FROM working in clubs, and bought them with me to private events. :sqcool:

Karaoke or dance club shows?
 
I know I should let this go, but I can't for some dumb reason:

1) given past history, yes, but even earlier- a day or two- just in case the system had the expected problems, or the had to find another DJ. Whenever I work a venue that I haven't worked before OR worked recently, I go in for a pre-check no later than 2 days in advance- and that's WITHOUT knowledge of previous problems. Joe, he should have called beforehand. Quit making excuses for his ineptness.


2) You are absolutely correct. It is not the DJ's responsibility to carry backup- but we do to uphold the quality of our shows- as you do when you carry your equipment. It is his show, not mine.

However, I'm not just talking about HAVING back-up. As previously stated, you didn't want to lug it for the low pay. No problem, I'm with you 100%! But if that's the case, working without a net, I would have made DAMN sure to go in a few days early for a thorough system check of the only equipment available to me. What possible choice would I have?

I DO understand that you were backed up time and work-wise.

I DO understand that they played the jukebox instead- but that's not a DJ. They didn't deliver what they promised.

Before and after me they did not have a DJ. BTW I did not say they have a jukebox, I said that they loaded their PC with songs and played "like" a jukebox.

Skip to 6) Yes, it was the owner's responsibility to call if there was a problem, and they didn't. They screwed up. They were wrong. Thats my point.

....and going in eary on your own would still have given adaquate time for repair, or paying more for you to lug, or another DJ.
He cannot afford me at $200.00 per Saturday Night and $150.00 per Friday night, how then can he afford to pay me if I have to bring in my own system?

This situation was working on the edge, and in this case everyone fell off.

YOU: went home- No pay, Yes I was paid 4/6/2009, he got his time/money's worth Monday and yesterday for repair. no exposure, no referrals, possible rep damage, a lost night. None of this applies to me.


THEM: No DJ, probably lost some customers and some projected income, some damage to their rep, Next time they will get their act together.

Please, please, PLEASE understand that I am not trying to bust on you. I am only posting with the sincere wish to put across that preparation is EVERYTHING. I understand Joe. I am not taking it personally. I am not about to indulge Club owners or clients in bad habits.

Responses are in "RED" above.
 
Houston heres where I disagree

"THEM: No DJ, probably lost some customers and some projected income, some damage to their rep, Next time they will get their act together."

The owner has proven without a doubt he will follow in his own path or rut to the end. You continuing with him will continue to be dealing with some sort of challenge every time. Are you really going to fulfill more dates with his gear? I wouldnt in a million years.
If you continue it should be of no surprise to go up against like obstacles and possibly going home again. Unless he agrees to put in adequate gear and not mess with it once it is setup I would refuse to work there other than your private doos. Dont fly with Turkeys you wont get off the ground.