Pricing revisited

Should I even jump in....

Tom: Our prices are on the web I have discounts and incentives to offer if they want a little slide on the price. We offer a military and civil service discount. We do whatever charities we can that work into our overall company values. (dont do cancer society because i smoke, dont do anything that has an openly negative position on homosexuality, race etc)

I gotta agree with Hank on the 20 billable hours, with the way we do things around here and back in the day when i was a single op i may have a bride who needs extra hand holding and takes 20 hours but i may have 5 in a row who want no more than to know i can read what they put down in intelligence, so i take some of bride 2's time and apply it to bride 1

As a multi op operator im finding more and more brides that want everything online and almost REFUSE to meet in person its that whole "millenial" concept Mike Walters has been addressing as of late. i have more time on conference calls than face to face's. I envy Sparkies commitment to details i can say that having personally seen him, his rates reflect his commitment to excellence. Tom im sure you offer similar service, but heres the thing a lot of guys will put soooo many hours into the event and then something changes the event unexpectedly. I rarely ever see a wedding stick to the timeline. I rarely ever see a bride actually want to stick to her playlist. I often get a "PLEASE NO HIP HOP" then the bride will come up and want jump around, flo rida and hot in here.

i dont agree with Ron's statement about how much you want to put into your talent i guess continuing education refines your craft but its my opinon you either have the talents to do this or you dont...i typically agree with Ron though...

I think your ability to deliver a good show depends on your musical skills, acting skills, creativity, ability to read the crowd and your ability to handle last minute change and keep moving.. that doesnt require 20 hours of time from me.

Tom says when they see the commitment you see the justification in price, i think videos, pictures and referalls, references etc show much more justification than a commitment sheet.

However Tom owns his own business as do i and just about everyone here and its certainly his perrogative to do so and i respect him for posting in the first place knowing the can of worms price opens here

JoeChartreuse said:

It shouldn't really. First, in my case, I don't charge more just because it's a wedding or a corporate event, though I admit that I take it into consideration. It's still more about the prep, event size ( meaning more, larger, and heavier equipment for a large event) etc...

Also, it's a chance to even up for all the bar venues that I work...

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Joe,

I might be a little presumptuous here, and I'm sure he will step in and correct me if I am, but at this point in the convo, I am pretty confident that Mike's big issue (and I think all of ours right along with him) isn't that dj's charge more for weddings per-se', but is that some dj's just view it as an opportunity to artificially inflate rates for event types because they can.

Even though you yourself said this above, and that these types of events have bigger budgets - and that came off as the kind of attitude Mike was talking about - I don't think you really meant to come off that way entirely, as even now you indicate a little more substance to your position.

Namely, you charge more because there is actually more involved, more that goes into these events, etc. You are basing your increased wedding rate on the plain and simple fact that there is more work that goes into weddings.

I think Mike's issue may be that while every dj will say there's "more work" or "more involved" with weddings and try to justify higher rates on that fact, it is very common practice for them to increase rates in an amount disproportionate with that extra work and rather than base the increase or difference on a matter-of-fact evaluation and breakdown of whats involved and charge accordingly, they use that difference as a blank check to simply charge "what the market can bear" for that event type without actually arriving at the number based on simple cost-of-business calculations.

That I think is Mike's big issue with wedding dj prices, and I would have to say I'm with him on that, which is why I find myself modestly positioned in the lower-middle price-range for wedding dj's in my market.

Many wedding dj's here in Cali might balk at my rate, but it is based on real-world tangibles and fairly reflects, I believe, what I am brining to the table at any given time.

Jon Tuck said:

All bets are off when running the bottom of the Barrel Discounts on Craigslit right?

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$495 in greensboro is average.. $200 is bottom again anyone who knows me knows we only run craigs for google impressions

1cdj said:

Should I even jump in....

Tom: Our prices are on the web I have discounts and incentives to offer if they want a little slide on the price. We offer a military and civil service discount. We do whatever charities we can that work into our overall company values. (dont do cancer society because i smoke, dont do anything that has an openly negative position on homosexuality, race etc)

I gotta agree with Hank on the 20 billable hours, with the way we do things around here and back in the day when i was a single op i may have a bride who needs extra hand holding and takes 20 hours but i may have 5 in a row who want no more than to know i can read what they put down in intelligence, so i take some of bride 2's time and apply it to bride 1

As a multi op operator im finding more and more brides that want everything online and almost REFUSE to meet in person its that whole "millenial" concept Mike Walters has been addressing as of late. i have more time on conference calls than face to face's. I envy Sparkies commitment to details i can say that having personally seen him, his rates reflect his commitment to excellence. Tom im sure you offer similar service, but heres the thing a lot of guys will put soooo many hours into the event and then something changes the event unexpectedly. I rarely ever see a wedding stick to the timeline. I rarely ever see a bride actually want to stick to her playlist. I often get a "PLEASE NO HIP HOP" then the bride will come up and want jump around, flo rida and hot in here.

i dont agree with Ron's statement about how much you want to put into your talent i guess continuing education refines your craft but its my opinon you either have the talents to do this or you dont...i typically agree with Ron though...

I think your ability to deliver a good show depends on your musical skills, acting skills, creativity, ability to read the crowd and your ability to handle last minute change and keep moving.. that doesnt require 20 hours of time from me.

Tom says when they see the commitment you see the justification in price, i think videos, pictures and referalls, references etc show much more justification than a commitment sheet.

However Tom owns his own business as do i and just about everyone here and its certainly his perrogative to do so and i respect him for posting in the first place knowing the can of worms price opens here

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Excellent post. I would have to agree except with the following:

"Tom im sure you offer similar service, but heres the thing a lot of guys will put soooo many hours into the event and then something changes the event unexpectedly. I rarely ever see a wedding stick to the timeline. I rarely ever see a bride actually want to stick to her playlist. I often get a "PLEASE NO HIP HOP" then the bride will come up and want jump around, flo rida and hot in here."

I can't speak for bride's wanting online rather than face to face meetings - perhaps it is a regional difference - pr not knowing your operation, perhaps they are kind of led down that since being a multi-op, who their dj may be isn't known up-front, so doing the planning electronically and meeting your dj the day-of or a few weeks prior may work better in that scenario - I can only speculate.

You are right that yes - the ability to roll with the flow and go with changes is a distinct talent we should all have, but you flatly contradict yourself and your claims about the kind of planning service you are offering when you say this:

"I rarely ever see a wedding stick to the timeline. I rarely ever see a bride actually want to stick to her playlist."

If these items are a common denominator for you, I would think you would want to soberly and honestly re-evaluate the particulars of the current planning process. Being one of the "20 hr guys," (even though it has been said ad-naseum this is only an average figure used for calculation), I can say that these two are never issues for me here.

Maybe brides and dj's a like are just more chaotic and less bound by structure in your area, but for some reason I would doubt it. Trying a slightly different approach - including downplaying the level of reliance on online planning tools (I know - lots invested - I know) in the planning process would yield different results.

Bottom line is this:

If you are not developing timelines that can be stuck to 8 or 9 times out of 10, and are not developing playlists that can likewise be used, you are speaking volumes of either the planning process itself being used, or of the people using them before and during the event itself.

Developing a timeline/itinerary that can be adhered to at an event seems to me to be dj 101, and someone bashing a proven process and approach in favor of one that develops useless or spurious timelines seems a bit silly.

Karl Langford said:

He will never believe a wedding is more difficult or takes more work.

He only believes that "ALL WEDDING VENDORS" jack up prices just because it is a wedding.

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I think that hurdle has already been overcome

I DJ for free because I am too lazy to refill my printer with ink so I can't send out a contract/bill...

i dont agree with Ron's statement about how much you want to put into your talent i guess continuing education refines your craft but its my opinon you either have the talents to do this or you dont...i typically agree with Ron though...

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Not quite sure what you mean here but I never said anything about putting into your talent or education. What I said was a part timer like Tom charging less than me, couldn't put me out of business. Unless of course his talent was equal to or superior than mine. Knowing what I have for competition in my immediate area I'm not worried about part timers charging less.

Please quote the statement so I know what you're talking about.

Karl Langford said:

I can't believe this is still going. He will never believe a wedding is more difficult or takes more work.

He only believes that "ALL WEDDING VENDORS" jack up prices just because it is a wedding.

When I read something that he agrees with, it is something that I said to him but he refused to believe me.

He believes we should charge the same for an event that takes a total of time spent that is twice as long as the next. For example. Spent 12 hours at a wedding reception because of OT. Also had to drive 2 hours each way. 1 meeting which drive time and time at the meeting of over 2 hours. Not to mention prep work. They got my game show system for an activity for the wedding party. Easily 3 hours of prep time for the game show acitivty.

I made around $1500 that night. But a 4 hour birthday party that took no meetings, or prep time and was 20 minutes away should be the same price. Meaning I should have charged $400 for the wedding. Maybe add the extra OT.

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Completely and totally wrong.

My argument was actually that the amount charged should be based ONLY on the work done for THAT client.

For example. What if I said that I charged $750 for light programming. I would base this on an hourly charge of $50/hr and an average programming time of 8 hours, 3 hours meeting with the client, and 4 hours of prep.

Now a client who I only do 6 hours of programming for, meet with for an hour, and do an hour of prep pays $750. A client who I do not prep work and only meet with for 30 mins pays $750. A client that I meet with for 4 hours, talk on the phone to for 8 hours, do 7 hours of prep, and program 10 hours for pays $750. Does this really seem fair to everyone?

Now, if it is a theater musical I charge $1500. Why? Because there is usually more programming involved, more prep, more meetings, etc. If a musical has 10 lights or 150 it is $1500. If it has 50 cues or 5000 it is $1500. Why? On average I do more work, and because I can (they usually have bigger budgets). Does this really seem fair?

Mike

GoodKnightDJ said:

I guess I am moving to Milford, MA...

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Why, you quite the business remember. But if you do we have plenty of VFW's and Elks Lodges around so I guess you'd have something to do.

Watch out Ron , Tom may move next door to you then all hell will break loose

he charges by the second on complaints on how bad your fence looks and how you havent mowed the patch on your head

there are a number of reasons but I wont badger on i'll let Tom tell you

Flat rate pricing here. No hourly estimates or the like. Some events take longer to plan for than others....some longer to drive too. Some last longer than others too.


Doesn't matter to me. Flat rate for the entire event. I feel like I'm above average in pay for my area and I definitely know my value is and the simplicity of my pricing structure keeps it simple for me and my clients.

Sounds to go... I think we pay $199 for our "online planning" so its not a big cost or anything I'd prefer in person meetings however around here, at least with our brides, they'll meticulously pick these lists that are more likely ipod playlists for sunday chores than wedding lists and they tend to want to change that.

I always go with the mantra that timeline is for order not timing, without really falling on me timelines are almost always thrown out the window in terms of time.

A lot of our brides want to do bouquet and garter at a point later in the evening to take a break from dancing call it 9:30 in a wedding that ends at 11 however they start loosing guests at 8:30 and want to do it then.

Photogs tell brides here that the photos will take 45 minutes, all except this one guy Tommy who tells his brides good photos will take upwards of an hour, this is just a flat out lie this 45 minute ordeal so intros rarely start on time.

We do keep things moving and in an order, but rarely do we keep to the "schedule"

good feedback though

Ron Auger said:

Not quite sure what you mean here but I never said anything about putting into your talent or education. What I said was a part timer like Tom charging less than me, couldn't put me out of business. Unless of course his talent was equal to or superior than mine. Knowing what I have for competition in my immediate area I'm not worried about part timers charging less.

Please quote the statement so I know what you're talking about.

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Ron i dont got a clue i got on way late and all the arguments blurbbed together.. my bad though man...

Sounds To Go said:

Joe,

I might be a little presumptuous here, and I'm sure he will step in and correct me if I am, but at this point in the convo, I am pretty confident that Mike's big issue (and I think all of ours right along with him) isn't that dj's charge more for weddings per-se', but is that some dj's just view it as an opportunity to artificially inflate rates for event types because they can.

.

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Sounds, I have a thing about personal honor and honesty. Though you have given me an opening to show how there really is a reason why I charge more for a wedding, I must also agree with Mikeas well- in ALL DJ/KJ fees. Why? Honesty. My minimum charge for ANY private event is $125/hr, with a 4 hour minimum. That's for a small party. I get up to $ 1250 for a corporate event ( and weddings when I did them). That's the LEAST that I charge. Now, that being said, are our services really the equal of worth to a doctor, lawyer, electrician,or even a nurse- training and education wise?

I'd say no. Since I consider myself, at best, a midrange DJ and top end Karaoke host, I am the first to admit that many of us actually charge more than our skills are worth in comparison to the trades above. Why? Again, because that's what the market will bear. We are in business to make money, and a successful business is one that maximizes it's profits. I consider myself an ethical man, but that also means being honest with myself.

Yes, weddings take more prep, work, and equipment than a birthday party, but let's not lie to ourselves. It's business.

Jon Tuck said:

after all its only seafood. I can get fish sticks for 6 bucks.

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True, but I bet the package doesn't specify a particular fish- mystery fish?

JoeChartreuse said:

Yes, weddings take more prep, work, and equipment than a birthday party, but let's not lie to ourselves. It's business.

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It is business, and I'm not lying to myself, and I don't think any one of us here participating has any more or less "a thing" for honesty and personal honor than any other. All I am doing (speaking for myself anyway) is passing along and charging business expenses where they belong - to the client. And yes, different events require more/different things, so they will be more or less than others.

No questionable practices there - no breach of ethics there, and no problems being honest with myself or sleeping at night. Just passing along to the client what they should be paying for - real world tangibles that cover the existence of the entity they are contracting with and the things that go into their individual event. What more or less should they be paying for? NOTHING!

You are right - far too many charge based on nothing, and solely get what the market can bear. I'm personally not one of those, and loathe that approach. There is a very real and necessary justification for charging different for different events - and there is nothing wrong with realizing that and doing so. The problem arises when people either out of plain ol' ignorance, or full-on unabashed capitalistic greed, take advantage of that margin and artificially inflate it. We all agree on that fact and recognize it as a problem, and anyone pointing out that that goes on in our industry is preaching to the choir! This tangent on the thread should've ended long ago!

As for what we "charge per hour," the entire point thus far is that that way of looking at pricing is baseless and meaningless from a dj business standpoint. That's not what we're REALLY doing even if it is what our clients perceive or even worse, if that's how we spin our rates to them - or ourselves as time goes by.

As for nurses, electricians, etc... even though attempting to "look at what we do" based on an hourly rate is just plain silly, we could just as easily charge that regarding this comparison, it is not us who "charge too much" (I personally DON'T), but them who are undervalued and underpayed with respect to what they do - and let me assure you, they will agree, as would most of us. So if anything according to that observation/analogy, maybe they should be going up - not us going down.

I don't feel guilty about what I charge or how I establish my rates - it is one of the most honest approaches around, so I don't have to.

If any of us is finding ourselves with internal uneasiness or having trouble sleeping at night because we know we can't justify simply charging "what the market can bear," then we'd better re-evaluate our approach - and quick.

It shouldn't have to be perceived as a windfall of negativity, questionable practices, etc. balanced out or justified with a shrug by saying "hey, that's just the way it is... let's not lie to ourselves - it's business."

It SHOULD be "It's just business, it's just fine, and there's nothing wrong with that!"

"It's just business" should be a mere statement of fact - not a justification.

JoeChartreuse said:

I am the first to admit that many of us actually charge more than our skills are worth in comparison to the trades above.

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Speak for yourself! The charge for my "dj performance skills" at an event less than 25% of my rate in my pricing structure. If we are being honest with ourselves, and we have any clue about running a business, we realize that "what our skills are worth" (for performance time, figured hourly per-event) are actually a very small part of what we charge - and rightfully so. If you are in a position where as a karaoke host you simply show up at your regular venues, sit down, spin their stuff on their equipment, etc., then yeah.... at $125/hr you should feel guilty cause you're ripping them off.

But I know that's not the case. You own your music. You own your equipment. You run a BUSINESS. Your own personal "hourly rate" for "your skills" and what you do at an event is only the tiniest fraction of that $125/hr... so you can't even run it up against the nurse making $40+/hr. Because you know what? All after all real-world business expenses aside, I can guarantee you she's making MORE per hour than you are at $125/hr - Just the way it SHOULD be according to your own argument!

The crux of your hourly comparison stems from the misconception you share with your clients that you shouldn't - namely that when they "pay you $125/hr" that that is just what they are doing - paying you for your skills that they see in their establishment. But they are getting so much more, and paying for so much more.

So don't feel bad - you're NOT getting paid "more per hour" than any electrician I know!