MP3 CDs

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(closer to the original topic, at least)

I've finally gotten more serious about selling the B-52 Prodigy FX that I don't use (see my post in Gear Exchange). It plays mp3 discs, with the same amount of manipulation you can do to "regular" cds. Bells and whistles galore.

If you're going the mp3 cd route, please consider it.
 
I haven't RTA tested... anything, but I have a question here.

Ipods have EQ settings. When you tested it, did you test it at "flat" EQ?

I did not know iPods had EQ settings (I was using a friend's iPod for the test).

The test was done with a white noise sample that I provided. The sample was loaded on the iPod using my copy of iTunes, and there was no EQ assigned to either sample in my iTunes.

Here is a tech article here that describes the EQ on an iPod: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2618

According to the tech article: "...Songs without an equalizer preset assigned to them in iTunes play as they were encoded (same as EQ - Off)..."

So, that means that for my test, the EQ was "Off."
 
Joe tell us how you really feel. Lol
In the end you can play bongos through a Mr Microphone and those idiots you speak of with love above will praise you more for the performance you give than the device you use.
Thanks for sharing Joe and all the rest. Perhaps we just realize we are allcomfortable with what device we use and thats why we get return business.


....and that's really all that I ask. Let others who are happy, be happy. All I ask is that people stop pushing....:sqcool:

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread..
 
1) Audio quality is subjective, period. According to Joe, test results are objective. I'm fine with that, and am glad these tests are performed. I DJ most frequently in a hotel ballroom, not a test lab. While I don't have an engineering degree, or specific lab test results, is there no value in the admittedly anecdotal observations, using years of my own DJ experiences, here on a DJ forum? Is disagreeing with you some kind of attack on your engineering credentials? If so, why?



2) The source is lossy compressed. "Corrupted" is judgement call, and your interpretation. You're welcome to view it that way, but it's coloring your responses.






I believe "could be" inferior or superior is a valid point of view because of the sheer number of variables in any given piece of recorded music. Your own statement references "high end tape", not just tape. Similarly, an mp3 is not ONE thing, either.



3) If YOU read the forums, Joe, you'll find that the advice constantly being given is to NOT use your performance computer as a multi-task machine, despite the fact that it's possible. How many computer problems (including those mentioned on forums like this one) are "user error" - the kind you CANNOT make on a CD player? More options = more things that could go wrong, if you, the user, subject yourself to them. Your statements here cannot be fact, as stated: you're comparing to nothing. What are you claiming that computer playback is inferior to? Many, many recordings now are CREATED and/or recorded via computer (ever heard of a program called Protools?). Are you suggesting that digital recording is inferior?

I would have drawers fail, mistracking, skipping, sticking, etc., and I take good care of my CDs. Via computer, either EVERY file plays (and correctly), or none of them do (and it's usually some kind of config. error on my part). Claiming something, calling it fact, and using all caps doesn't make your opinion anything more than your opinion. I value your opinion, but it's still just your opinion, for the most part.



4) I do, and I use common sense. I can elaborate further on that, if you wish.

5) Joe, one last observation and a question that's always puzzled me about you. You're the CD purist here, but you're primarily a karoake host, is that correct? You talk about inferiority of certain methods of music playback, while playing "cover" versions, for people to sing with? Do you see any irony in this? You're coming from an odd perpsective to argue "keep it real", to me. From my more limited experiences with karaoke, I'll take the actual Earth, Wind & Fire over any studio band's attempts to make instrumental karaoke recreations. And I'm willing to bet many of these recordings were made, using computers, Joe.


I guess I'm still in it.... However, Steve, your response was well thought out and presented. I hope my reply will be equal to it:


1) You are completely correct. AUDIO response IS subjective. I never argued the point. I was merely speaking in electronic terms regarding the music source. Though subjective, there ARE (myself included) people who can hear the difference, even on the best of playback devices. I happen to hear them as flat. One of my friends hears them as tinny. Another ( who must be some kind of wierd savant) can hear random changes in BPM.

As many will say ( and with whom I agree), the majority of listeners probably won't notice the difference. I just don't want to stiff those who can. Just because I might get away with it, doesn't make it right- FOR ME.
Disagreeing with me on a subjective basis doesn't attack me. Heck, subjective disagreements are half the fun of forums! However, disagreeing with the electronic testing is just a waste of time. The results are what they are. There's nothing to argue.



2) You are also correct here. My use of the word "corrupted" is probably incorrect, at least in regard to a professionally made ORIGINAL MP3. Unfortunately, even these are missing a LOT of information, as previously tested, and are still...um...lacking. Then of course, people who download music are not getting originals, and then corruption IS present. Those who rip their own are in most cases amateurs ( if talented), and corruption shows there too.


3) Even a PC dedicated to music performance only is still a PC, and built for purposes other than that for which it is being used. It is not designed specifically for music reproduction. Yes, it can be modified with both software and harware to do a better job, but this in itself can cause problems.

Yes, players can have their own problems, as described by you. However, the cost of repair or replacement is TEENY compared to to those of a PC ( Sorry about the caps again, but I believe it helps get the point across..:sqembarrassed:).

Good software costs good money. A good PC costs big bucks. Good backup equipment will cost the equal of the other two. This forum contains HUNDREDS of posts in regard to all the problems inherent with PC use, and very few in regard to players.

Even if a player were to EXPLODE in use, you lose a disc (or a few with a multi-drawer) and the player- a couple of hundred bucks. If a PC blows up, you lose the PC, the music library it contains ( tens of thousands of songs?), the software, and the hardware upgrades such as a top sound card and video board. A lot of time and money.

Steve, this is only one reason why I, and only I, have no desire to switch yet. When it's worth it to switch to a superior media, I will, as I have done before.


4) Steve, there are some who's common sense I may question- in all parts of my life- ( including my own on more than one occasion), but you are not one of them. The post above asks nothing but solid questions, presented in a non-hostile manner. For that I thank you, as well.


5) This one I must answer with a smile on my face. First the serious side: Except for Midi freebies, most are studio recorded on master CDs, not computers) so the sound quality is as full a range as can be produced on that media.

As for the smiley side, unfortunately you are right. The sound quality may be recorded properly, some covers can be pretty horrific. I have heard some terrific, dead on covers as well, but.....:sqembarrassed::sqlaugh:

However, because of copywrite law, that's what is available. There are no alternatives. I use the best available ( subjectively speaking, of course...)


One last bit about electronic testing results. Remember, these are not sound tests but a test for accuracy in regard to duplicating original music.


Just an extra monkey wrench: Electronically, VINYL is still the best for audio RANGE.....:sqcool:


Steve,

I hope I have clarified my points. If not, please let me know. I will attempt to do a better job.

The only thing that gets to me is the constant preaching. CD people don't try to switch anyone. Vinyl people don't either. However, the PC Posse seem to have a great need to "spread the good word"

I have my own beliefs regarding the reason for that, but they are not germaine. What is germaine is that when some one tries to convince ME of something, they had better have facts, or I will push back. That's not just here, not just about music- it's about anything from politics to business to cars to all that life entails.
 
OKAY I know Johnny has waited patiently in this thread and so I will say it. Joe Vinyl is superior to CD. Can you deny that comment? Not trying to ruffle feathers but in fact switching from Vinyl to CD was a step down in true audiophile reproduction. If you truly want accurate copy try Reel To Reel or 4 track.
Sorry Ducky I had to make that last point however back to your question. MP3 CDs were a thought for me in my transformation to Computer system. Unfortunately to label each CD youd need microfiche reader to put each song on a sleeve. I dont want a binder full of oversized CD labels I may as well bring out vinyl again.
 
Just an extra monkey wrench: Electronically, VINYL is still the best for audio RANGE.....:sqcool:

:sqconfused:

Magnetic tape has about 55dB of available dynamic range.
An LP has about 60dB of available dynamic range.
A CD has about 90dB of available dynamic range.
A DVD has about 144dB of available dynamic range.

I will grant that in the days of vinyl, recording engineers and producers actually made use of the available dynamic range. With the effects of the modern "loudness war" most modern recordings are using less than 15dB of the dynamic range that is available from a CD. Louder is better, after all... :sqwink:

There are many cases where vinyl recordings made use of more range than is use on CD's, to claim that the vinyl is "the best for audio RANGE" is disingenuous at best. Go get a CD that was mastered in the early 1980's, and the dynamic range will easily exceed anything that is available on vinyl.

For more on the subject of dynamic range:

YouTube - The Loudness War

http://georgegraham.com/compress.html

Dynamic range - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Question_book-new.svg" class="image"><img alt="Question book-new.svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png

Loudness war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Cd_loudness_trend-something.gif" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Cd_loudness_trend-something.gif/276px-Cd_loudness_trend-something.gif"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/a/ab/Cd_loudness_trend-something.gif/276px-Cd_loudness_trend-something.gif
 
OKAY I know Johnny has waited patiently in this thread and so I will say it. Joe Vinyl is superior to CD. Can you deny that comment? Not trying to ruffle feathers but in fact switching from Vinyl to CD was a step down in true audiophile reproduction. If you truly want accurate copy try Reel To Reel or 4 track.


No feathers ruffled, and I agree completely. I stepped down in audio ( but a small step) for the OVERALL benefits of CDs . The step down to MP3 is a much bigger audio loss, and as I have described, there aren't really any benefits that come close to making up for it. But that's just for me. If others find PCs a blessing, I have absolutely no desire to attempt to change their minds.....:sqbiggrin:
 
In considering MP3 CD and computer based systems I have struggled the same with the switch as I did from Vinyl to CD. Perhaps I will be completely computer based before I retire or a new alternative media becomes mass appeal as the PC has presently.

You hit it on the head Joe there were crappy copies onto vinyl in dingy little recording shacks which when transferred to CD sounded even worse. Produced CDs today still have to be EQ'd in many cases. The Mastered CDs in the 80's for the most part sounded like crap missing that range that Vinyl still carrys even on those wafer thin discs they are grooved into.
 
In regards to mp3's, if someone really feels that mp3's are a huge drop in quality, there is the option of going to wave files. Hard drive space is inexpensive nowadays to make that a reality.

One of my best friends, who is an excellent DJ, tried using computers but simply couldn't get comfortable with it. He was much more comfortable with his CD's and his processes. I totally respect that and encourage everyone to find what works for you and do it well.

My hope is that people that read my posts may find them useful especially if their situation is like mine(mostly weddings). I would hope that people that don't see their situation as similar to theirs and don't feel my posts were helpful to them do not see the posts as me trying to tell anyone how to run their business. I try to posts my experiences and let others use them how they may. I know I have found many others' experiences to be helpful to me.

Joe, I hope you did not find my posts offensive in any way. If you did, I apologize. That was never my intent.
 
The only thing that gets to me is the constant preaching. CD people don't try to switch anyone. Vinyl people don't either. However, the PC Posse seem to have a great need to "spread the good word"

Which church do you preach for Pastor Joe...? The EE Church of the Sacred Bleeding Heart of O Holy Scope... :sqwink: :sqlaugh:

Joisey folks... :sqrolleyes:


Quite frankly, I love it when people go computer, since that's how I make my living :)

Putting that aside for a moment though, the reason I wrote my first DJ program (which is still my only DJ program), was to save my back! I couldn't care less whether Joe the Plumber, can tell the difference between a CD and an MP3, in a quiet room, with headphones going through an o scope.

The noise floor at any event, renders the argument irrelevant -- that is fact. 50 people stomping to Mony, Mony, and yelling Get laid..., makes it impossible to tell the difference in either the source, or the output. It is not a valid debate point in the DJ Universe.


Now, since you said I called you a liar above (don't mind me, I always call people from Joisey liars, and bad drivers to boot (Joe especially) :D), I thought I should elaborate...


Mechanical means, provide the reason for my saying what is physically impossible:

In the time it takes you to eject a disc, physically take it out of your player, and place another one in -- I have done my search, and cued the song. That doesn't even account for the time for you to look through your book, pick out the CD with the song you want, and grab it out of the case or book. Then, you need to wait for your player to recognize the disc, and read the TOC, then, advance to the track you want.

It is simple physics -- it can't be done in anywhere near the time software can!


One thing I would like to state, as Scott mentioned above -- if you don't feel MP3 is up to your standards, use WAV! It is an exact duplicate of your CD -- sample for sample.

You still benefit from the speed of the computer, and inherent organizational structure, yet get the same compressed results you get on a CD.


CDs are not a correct representation of the music, just sampling points, put into digital format -- so in fact, they are a Codec :)


So Joe -- have a beer, stop singing out of tune, drive properly, and join more of the political discussion, since you seem way stressed about that... :sqlaugh: :sqwink: :sqbiggrin:
 
Produced CDs today still have to be EQ'd in many cases.

What if: you could EQ a song, and save it?

Wait, you can! And then add the new EQ'd version to your music library, without having to burn another disc?

I have done this, and even started threads describing what songs I felt compelled to "fix" in this manner. Want me to start a thread on that, here?
 
Absolutely my friend its info like this which we need to improve our stock. Thanks in advance.
 
I can agree with Joe's line of thought...

I too really like the range and response of CD's, but i really don't want to carry a few thousand of them around. When i first started digital, i ripped to 256CBR.

These are some really good sounding files.....However, I used an inferior way of ripping them..(Windows Media Player)
So...I'm going through the process all over again, and will not be batch converting to MP3. Nope i'm gonna run Big,Fat,Wav files.....Because i like how they sound!!!!


With this argument....Can you hear the difference if your using sh)tty sounding speakers to begin with????
The guy i partner up with uses crap limewire files, with what i consider crap speakers and YES I CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE!!!!!
 
:sqconfused:
I will grant that in the days of vinyl, recording engineers and producers actually made use of the available dynamic range.
There are many cases where vinyl recordins made use of more range than is use on CD's, to claim that the vinyl is "the best for audio RANGE" is disingenuous at best. Go get a CD that was mastered in the early 1980's, and the dynamic range will easily exceed anything that is available on vinyl.

For more on the subject of dynamic ]


You are correct in all cases. However, most of the CDs used today are not from the 80s. Much as I love 'em, modern CDs are not made as they were, and thus DON'T have the range of vinyl....
 
okay wait a minute I know for a fact that initially the range was horrible in the first CD's and in fact much less than vinyl they then boosted bass to rid the discs of horrible tin sounding offerings.
 
As Quoted From Scott H.


1) Here's a fact for you. I've plugged an ipod into my system. I've also plugged a computer with a professional sound card into it. I know what sounds better. You can test things all day. Testing for things that simply won't matter to my customers doesn't make any sense to me. More and more DJ's are moving to computers.


2) Yes, I am sorry. I admit it. I'm making it all up. CD's are superior for DJing in every way. I just thought i could trick someone else into going down the long lonely computer road that I did. Does that make any sense? Seriously, I have been simply letting other know how MY experience has been and how I AND my customers have benefited from it. If that is lying and uneducated, sorry.

3) Apology accepted....but they do sound directed at me. I do read the posts. I never said PC's don't have problems. I said they had less problems for me that CD players did. You did read that, didn't you?



4) Joe,
Sounds like you are ready for a vacation. Try to relax. you deserve it.



5) You can keep saying how inferior computers are in playing music. You can keep saying that DJ's with computers have all kinds of problems. You can keep saying customers WANT you to play these much better sounding cds. I disagree. STRONGLY


6) I totally disagree with you telling others that are considiring advancing to newer technology about problems and pitfalls that many of us have found simply not to be true. ....End Of Quote.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1) I'm happy your customers don't care, but they are not mine. Mine have heard both, and voiced their opinions. I guess they are just picky, but since they pay my way, I try and please them. As previously posted, just because I can get away with lesser quality doesn't mean I WANT TO.


2) OK, I have to leave this alone in public forum. I believe I know why this is, but it would cause more trouble than it's worth.


3) Scott, I'm sorry you feel that way, but the apology was sincere, and my comments were NOT directed at you in particular.


4) Nope, I just need more contact with people who are not to lazy to think for themselves, and don't play Follow The Leader.


5 & 6) If all of my comments regarding PC problems are untrue, and there are less with PCs than CD players, why does this forum have a whole section dedicated to PCs that is filled with threads about problems with them, but no such thing exists for CD players?

Because there are so many more problems with PCs- OK? It's right there for all to read. No debate, no argument. It's there in print. It's where I LEARNED about ALL OF THE PC PROBLEMS- right on the forum. Difficult to accept, maybe, but it can't be changed for denial's sake.

It's not new and better technology unless it's BETTER



So far, no one says that MP3s are equal to or superior to CDs

So far, no one has addressed or denied the fact that so many PC problems have been discussed right here on the forum, and so few CD player problems have.

Once again, I have no wish to convert anyone. I ( billionth repetition) am explaining why it's not worth it for ME to switch. Others do as they wish- I have not been elected judge.

If one wishes to run foil cylinders through a Victrola, it's ok by me. Just stop trying to tell me it's better just because one finds it more pleasant or less heavy, or "track at a time" convenient to use.
 
Well, the dynamic range of CD media is still available. It just isn't being utilized to full potential. Remember, the majority of music buyers these days don't have upper-crust audio equipment anymore. If it's mixed down for play through a set of tinny earbuds, that's what it's gonna sound like.

Some early CDs in the '80s were recorded from less-than-professional sources. They'll only sound as good as the source material. Gosh, I had an early CD set of holiday music that had been recorded from vinyl. I could hear the pops and clicks in it. Some had been recorded from tape that was not in good condition to begin with... I could hear the tape drag on occasion.

We've got some CD sets that sound like an AM radio. They were never remastered. AM radio is what the originals were mixed down to match. There are no highs and lows on AM.

On the other hand we've got a very nice, remastered Charlie Pride collection on CD. It sounds like he's right there in the room singing. :)
 
In regards to mp3's, if someone really feels that mp3's are a huge drop in quality, there is the option of going to wave files. Hard drive space is inexpensive nowadays to make that a reality.

One of my best friends, who is an excellent DJ, tried using computers but simply couldn't get comfortable with it. He was much more comfortable with his CD's and his processes. I totally respect that and encourage everyone to find what works for you and do it well.

My hope is that people that read my posts may find them useful especially if their situation is like mine(mostly weddings). I would hope that people that don't see their situation as similar to theirs and don't feel my posts were helpful to them do not see the posts as me trying to tell anyone how to run their business. I try to posts my experiences and let others use them how they may. I know I have found many others' experiences to be helpful to me.

Joe, I hope you did not find my posts offensive in any way. If you did, I apologize. That was never my intent.


Never offensive, Scott. I have a hide like a rhino. I too, mean no offense to anyone. I'm just a passionate debator. You are right about the WAV files, but I'm still not up to switching to PC full time, though I should consider WAV files for the parties where I DO use the laptop.

I would like to point out that I am completely comfy with the lappy, it's just preference.