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SoftJock Rick said:
Actually, it wasn't the IRS -- it was the state.

And yes, I'm well aware they will try to get it from the easiest source. It was only an oral agreement between us. Since I hadn't heard from them in a couple of decades, I wrongly assumed she had paid off her part.

Marriage is just plain dumb from a financial perspective.
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Not at all. This has nothing to do with marriage or divorce. Your problem is simply a door you failed to close by not creating and enforcing a written separation agreement prior to divorce. It's not really her fault that you left all that money on the table for the IRS to come collect from you. Her part seems rather predictable.
 
ahoustondj said:
The Big Markets with their larger populations outnumber the small markets.
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The numbers don't matter, Canute. The only thing that matters is whether you WORK in a big market or small market.
I live about an hour from Philly. Far enough that I don't get gigs in Philly.
So I need to focus on MY market, which is mostly weddings.
ahoustondj said:
What Bob says is true, a lot of the Wedding DJs, not all, are part timers
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How do you know (or prove) such a claim?

What does ANY of this have to do with the original post?
 
Proformance said:
In other words... you just paid for one product but - were given a different one with no assurances that they will ever actually deliver what you paid for. It's called "bait and switch."

I'm still waiting for my free upgrade to OtsDJ 2.0 - is a name change all it takes to run this scam again?
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I think you're definition of "Bait and Switch" is flawed. While I agree it seems a little silly that they are not saying what's in the new product, and don't say when it will be complete, they make it perfectly clear what the purchaser is getting NOW...making "bait and switch" not applicable here.

I think they are making themselves look extremely bad by taking so long for an upgrade that was supposed to be done last September, just as they have with previous upgrades. But people buying from the email you got know they are getting a discount OFF OF THE CURRENT PRODUCT price with the promise of some upgrade...some time some day. Do you know someone that took advantage of this offer and thought they were the only one getting the upgrade now and were surprised to find out they weren't? That would be bait and switch. See the difference?

While I'm not happy about the upgrade thing, I think "scam" is pretty far stretch. If they were looking to scam you, they could have called the upgrade they did 8 years ago 2.0 and be done with you.

It's perfectly fine not to like something and bring up why you don't like something. But when you start throwing out "bait and switch" and "scam" where they clearly don't exist, people will stop listening to what you have to say. So lighten up, Francis!:)
 
Scott Hanna said:
I think you're definition of "Bait and Switch" is flawed. While I agree it seems a little silly that they are not saying what's in the new product, and don't say when it will be complete, they make it perfectly clear what the purchaser is getting NOW...making "bait and switch" not applicable here.
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If there were a warranty, refund or return provision, and time definite delivery then I would agree with you - but, essentially they can deliver a piece of s___ to you and you have no recourse. They are also not a U.S. company so you won't have leverage with U.S. consumer protection law.

I think they are making themselves look extremely bad by taking so long for an upgrade that was supposed to be done last September, just as they have with previous upgrades.
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I think you just condemned them right there by saying they have a long history of not delivering a finished product. Does it not occur to you the obvious reason for the name change?

But people buying from the email you got know they are getting a discount OFF OF THE CURRENT PRODUCT price with the promise of some upgrade...some time some day. Do you know someone that took advantage of this offer and thought they were the only one getting the upgrade now and were surprised to find out they weren't? That would be bait and switch. See the difference?
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I see the promise of an advertised product that doesn't exist, and a substitute product being sold with no provision for a refund. That Scott, is the legal definition of bait and switch.

While I'm not happy about the upgrade thing, I think "scam" is pretty far stretch. If they were looking to scam you, they could have called the upgrade they did 8 years ago 2.0 and be done with you.
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Yes, when the machines people bought the program for had already become obsolete - so where do you get this notion that time doesn't matter?

It's perfectly fine not to like something and bring up why you don't like something. But when you start throwing out "bait and switch" and "scam" where they clearly don't exist, people will stop listening to what you have to say. So lighten up, Francis.
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I think not. I stand by my categorization of this email, and the company in general. At this time OtsAV has not demonstrated any meaningful integrity. Case in point is your reference to version 2.0 which has never existed as anything but bait, and has now been switched - same scam just a new name.
 
Proformance said:
I see the promise of an advertised product that doesn't exist, and a substitute product being sold with no provision for a refund. That Scott, is the legal definition of bait and switch.
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Well, I guess I thought bait and switch meant something else. I was not aware that selling a current product at a discount with a promise of an upgrade of a future release is the legal definition for "bait and switch" because it offers no provision for a refund, even when the advertisement clearly states that the upgrade is not ready and they are getting the current version now.

When I bought a vista computer, Microsoft included a future upgrade to Windows 7 with no date when it was coming and no provision for a refund. Even though it was made very clear to me that I was not getting windows 7 at the time of purchase, i guess it met the legal definition of "Bait and Switch".

Seems many software companies do this. We could make it a full time job suing those bait and switch people. Mind giving us some reference to this legal definition?

And while I don't pretend to know the exact legal definition of Bait and Switch(I didn't know there was a legal definition), I know what the spirit of it means. It's false advertising.

The advertisement CLEARLY let everyone know that they were buying the current product. It seems you are the only one who didn't understand that.
 
Scott Hanna said:
Well, I guess I thought bait and switch meant something else. I was not aware that selling a current product at a discount with a promise of an upgrade of a future release is the legal definition for "bait and switch" because it offers no provision for a refund, even when the advertisement clearly states that the upgrade is not ready and they are getting the current version now.
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What you are failing to do is put the horse on front of the cart. They are selling you a promise which they quite openly admit no commitment to keep. It has nothing to do with the refund - that's just an extra nail in an already obvious coffin. Wy you have such a difficult time seeing the obvious I don't know.

If this is so legit then why not sell the actual product? - Ooops! that's right IT DOESN'T EXIST. It's just the BAIT.

When I bought a vista computer, Microsoft included a future upgrade to Windows 7 with no date when it was coming and no provision for a refund. Even though it was made very clear to me that I was not getting windows 7 at the time of purchase, i guess it met the legal definition of "Bait and Switch".
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You are contradicting yourself. You didn't buy Windows 7 - you bought exactly what was advertised - a Vista computer.

And while I don't pretend to know the exact legal definition of Bait and Switch(I didn't know there was a legal definition), I know what the spirit of it means. It's false advertising.
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Bait and switch is not false advertising. False advertising is making unsubstantiated or untrue claims about a product or it's benefits. (Classic example: "Listerine kills the germs that cause the common cold.")

Ots is advertising is not false - rather they are advertising something they can not now, and admittedly may not ever be able to deliver. They are advertising a new product to entice you to buy (without warranty) a substitute product instead. That's Bait and switch.

Scott, how big a fool are you? If the product is so good or even real - then why not describe it in detail and let it sell itself? Answer: because it's too little too late and if you knew the truth you wouldn't buy it.
 
It's still not Bait-and-switch .. that requires the offering of one product and the unknown substitution of another. What Ots is doing is selling Vaporware as we call it in the computer world. Still not a good practice if you want to keep customers.
 
Proformance said:
Scott, how big a fool are you? If the product is so good or even real - then why not describe it in detail and let it sell itself? Answer: because it's too little too late and if you knew the truth you wouldn't buy it.
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I probably am a big fool to keep this argument up. But what part of they are offering the CURRENT PRODUCT WITH A FUTURE UPGRADE don't you understand?

I can't figure out if you are just pretending not to understand that just to keep arguing, or you seriously didn't know that...as I said...that would make you the only one.

I clearly said taking so long is not good, and they have not been good with past upgrades. But you trying to tell people that the offer is a bait and switch is wrong and a scam is not only wrong, it's totally illogical.

Your arguments simply don't make any sense.

You are contradicting yourself. You didn't buy Windows 7 - you bought exactly what was advertised - a Vista computer.
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This does not make any sense. THIS IS EXACTLY what the offer ots was doing. Selling the CURRENT PRODUCT promise of a future upgrade. That is EXACTLY what was advertised in thde OTS promotion. Again, it seems you are the only one that doesn't understand that. Did you even read your original post....what you copied and pasted there says "Pre-release" Do you understand what that means? How are they "Baiting" anyone(besides you, of course) into thinking that they are getting the new upgrade now?

If the product is so good
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Again, this makes no sense. I never said the upgrade was good. Who said the upgrade was good?.I have no idea what the upgrade is like. How does this even fit anywhere?

or even real
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So, you really believe this is an attempt to scam people. They really don't plan on every releasing an upgrade, and you and your special detective powers have uncovered this and saved the niave lot. Man, you are sooooo smart.

Bob, maybe, just maybe, imagine a world that you are not right ALL THE TIME. I know that seems like an extremely silly concept to you. But just consider that it might be even a remote possibility. You seem to dig your heels in and keep blasting off statements to back something up without considering things like....hmmmm...does it really make sense that this company is trying to scam people? You've made it very obvious in the past that you don't like OTS because of some video disagreement. It just seems like this whole thing is just to carry on whatever grudge you have with them.

But here's the great news....You are finally going to get your chance to be proven right about something. When the people that took advantage of this offer never get the FUTURE upgrade they were promised...we can all look back on this thread and say...Bob was right...we should have listened to him...and not that fool Scott, who...was never saying someone should take advantage of this offer...simply that it was not "bait and switch" and not a scam.

Let's just mark this thread and see who's right. If I'm wrong, it won't be the first time...and I'll gladly admit it.
 
steve149 said:
It's still not Bait-and-switch .. that requires the offering of one product and the unknown substitution of another. What Ots is doing is selling Vaporware as we call it in the computer world. Still not a good practice if you want to keep customers.
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I totally agree.
 
Scott, you are totally out to lunch on this. READ the email.

The product being promised is ESPERANCE not OtsAV. Buyers are very clearly being pre-sold on a product that they can not describe, admittedly does not yet exist, and has no time definite delivery date.

You are way off on your analogy. You did not buy MIcrosoft Windows 7 or even MS Vista - you purchased HARDWARE. Your transaction was with Hewlett-Packard, Toshiba, Apple, etc. not Microsoft. The upgrade offer was a deal struck between MS and the manufacturer not you. It is separate 3rd party offer no different than getting a free year of Qickuen Online, or a trial of Norton Anti-virus. You were promised HARDWARE with a functional OS and that is what you were sold.

There is no third party here. They are advertising ESPERANCE and can not deliver ESPERANCE. They are selling ESPERANCE but not delivering Esperance. This email is not advertising OtsAV it is promoting ESPERANCE and selling you vapor.

No where in that email is there a promotion of OtsAV - it is all about Esperance. Then, they admit they can't give it to you and have no idea if they ever will - so you get a switch to OtsAV.
 
SoftJock Rick said:
Bob,

If you put this much time and effort into something tangible, well, you get the drift... ;)

Buy Rockit -- you can actually call me, or email me. Heck, I'd probably do your horoscope for you :)
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What is the basis of your assumption that I make no time or effort on things tangible? Is it not possible I can do both? On the simple basis of post counts to this site - I'm 94% more available for tangible efforts than you are!

I agree. Rockit is a good honest mobile DJ deal. Club DJs not so much, and for me, it just doesn't have the video features and range of assets that suit my business. I'm a full event tech not just a DJ and at least 70% of what I do now is better categorized as production. I'm looking to solve bigger issues than just filling a dance floor. Other than that, I donlt see ow a mobile Dj could go wrong with buying Rockit.

Generally speaking, DJ software of any kind has to have a professional functionality that differentiates it from the multitude of consumer level products if it is going to survive. For example, OtsAv in terms of the audio program offers no more functionality than iTunes. In fact, iTunes actually makes tighter segues than OtsAV. Both provide automated playback, and OtsAV really doesn't offer anything more - Ots lacks instant start, there's no looping, no sampler, etc. nothing that would allow a DJ to do more with an audio track than consumers can do with iTunes.
 
Proformance said:
Scott, you are totally out to lunch on this. READ the email.

The product being promised is ESPERANCE not OtsAV. Buyers are very clearly being pre-sold on a product that they can not describe, admittedly does not yet exist, and has no time definite delivery date.


There is no third party here. They are advertising ESPERANCE and can not deliver ESPERANCE. They are selling ESPERANCE but not delivering Esperance. This email is not advertising OtsAV it is promoting ESPERANCE and selling you vapor.

No where in that email is there a promotion of OtsAV - it is all about Esperance. Then, they admit they can't give it to you and have no idea if they ever will - so you get a switch to OtsAV. BOB, this statement could not be more wrong. The email clearly states its a OtsAV promotion...see below
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So THAT'S what all this has been about? You actually believed that "Esperance" is a different product? You did all of this belly aching without even looking to find that "Esperance" is just the name of the upgrade?

Right on the front of their website...it says...coming soon...all new otsav...code named "Esperance". How could you miss that esperance is simply the name of the upgrade

They are selling OTS software...have always sold ots software. it's had several name changes...from OTS juke, to OTS DJ to OTSav. they've never said they are coming out with product called esperance. As the website says...it's simply the name of the upgrade. Even if they chose to change the name of the product to Esperance, which they have not, they have clearly stated that it's an update to their current product.

Most people that split hairs are at least right about the hairs they are splitting...even if it's complete overkill. You are not even close on this.

Again...it seems you are the only one who didn't understand that this was an upgrade...NOT A NEW PRODUCT.


Let's take a look at the full email that was sent out:

ESPERANCE UPDATE

Ots Labs expects the initial Esperance release to be available in June/July. Our original intentions and expectations had been for a much earlier release window, however we encountered several late obstacles which required considerable time and effort to overcome while continuing to maintain the standards of excellence that OtsAV customers are accustomed to and upon which the Ots Labs brand has been built. We sincerely apologise for any inconvience caused and we understand how passionate many of our customers are. We're very excited about what we have achieved and can't wait to share it with you in just a short while from now.

WHAT'S IN ESPERANCE?

Thus far, we've chosen to keep information about exactly what's inside Esperance fairly closely under wraps. While a number of statements have been made, few have been particularly specific and a couple have relied on some level of speculation to reach a conclusion. We have good reasons for this and although Ots Labs will continue to keep the majority of details under wraps until release day, we can reveal today that Esperance sports a completely re-designed lists/media interface and search functionality making for a greatly improved user experience. For this reason and many others, Esperance is a pure joy to use and our developers can't wait to show off their efforts. Once you've used Esperance, you won't be wanting to go back to an earlier version
smiley.gif


WHAT IF IT'S STILL NOT READY BY JULY?

Today we're drawing a line in the sand! It's no secret that we've encountered some unexpected challenges that have messed with our release schedule. We believe we can complete most remaining tasks within the timeframe detailed above. However, if for any reason this proves elusive, we're going to release in July at the latest - even if it means temporarily holding back a feature or two due to final integration issues until a subsequent update. Esperance is a new foundation for OtsAV and once it's out, there will be no looking back.

LAST CHANCE TO SAVE BIG - 40% OFF - 40 HOURS ONLY!

Starting now, we are running our FINAL pre-release promotion. For the next 40 hours only, all new OtsAV license sales / additional licenses are available for a whopping 40% OFF. All include a free update to Esperance once it's out. TODAY is the day to stock up and SAVE BIG - tell your friends and colleagues!
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Yet, you say that no where in the email does it state that the customer is buying OtsAv....this would be an epic fail on your part. LOL...even the part of the email that you posted clearly says "all new OtsAV"

You chose to copy and paste only parts. Not sure if you didn't even read it all, didn't comprehend it all, or purposely chose to leave parts out to move your agenda along.....WHERE IT CLEARLY says that the customer is purchasing a license for a product called OtsAV........with...are you ready for this........AN UPDATE called ESPERANCE

No where does it state that the customer is getting a totally NEW product. Simply the promise of a coming update...NOTHING more

So, you've never heard of a software company putting a name on an upgrade? In your world, if they put a name on an upgrade, that makes it a completely different product?

If you even bothered to read my first post, I agreed with on parts of it...that the upgrade history has been crappy.

But all you saw was that I disagreed with you about your "bait and switch" and "scam" tag...and you went on a rant and arguing that I thought how great the release is and how great the promotion was....which was not even CLOSE to what I was saying.

I think you should spend less time trying to copy and paste one line statements to disagree with...and try reading an entire message some time to try to understand what someone is saying.

If you read the whole original email from OTS, you would...or at least should...have grasped this.
 
Seriously? You really think the name makes all the difference?

I'm sure it's possible Scott, that Ots is about to release the next best thing since the birth of Christ - then again, I see nothing in their recent history to suggest they are capable of anything other than lip service. Call me when they actually have a product they can document.

Buyer beware.
 
Scott Hanna said:
So THAT'S what all this has been about? You actually believed that "Esperance" is a different product? You did all of this belly aching without even looking to find that "Esperance" is just the name of the upgrade?

Right on the front of their website...it says...coming soon...all new otsav...code named "Esperance". How could you miss that esperance is simply the name of the upgrade

They are selling OTS software...have always sold ots software. it's had several name changes...from OTS juke, to OTS DJ to OTSav. they've never said they are coming out with product called esperance. As the website says...it's simply the name of the upgrade. Even if they chose to change the name of the product to Esperance, which they have not, they have clearly stated that it's an update to their current product.

Most people that split hairs are at least right about the hairs they are splitting...even if it's complete overkill. You are not even close on this.

Again...it seems you are the only one who didn't understand that this was an upgrade...NOT A NEW PRODUCT.


Let's take a look at the full email that was sent out:



Yet, you say that no where in the email does it state that the customer is buying OtsAv....this would be an epic fail on your part. LOL...even the part of the email that you posted clearly says "all new OtsAV"

You chose to copy and paste only parts. Not sure if you didn't even read it all, didn't comprehend it all, or purposely chose to leave parts out to move your agenda along.....WHERE IT CLEARLY says that the customer is purchasing a license for a product called OtsAV........with...are you ready for this........AN UPDATE called ESPERANCE

No where does it state that the customer is getting a totally NEW product. Simply the promise of a coming update...NOTHING more

So, you've never heard of a software company putting a name on an upgrade? In your world, if they put a name on an upgrade, that makes it a completely different product?

If you even bothered to read my first post, I agreed with on parts of it...that the upgrade history has been crappy.

But all you saw was that I disagreed with you about your "bait and switch" and "scam" tag...and you went on a rant and arguing that I thought how great the release is and how great the promotion was....which was not even CLOSE to what I was saying.

I think you should spend less time trying to copy and paste one line statements to disagree with...and try reading an entire message some time to try to understand what someone is saying.

If you read the whole original email from OTS, you would...or at least should...have grasped this.
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When it requires so much rationalization to justify your position - then there is something clearly wrong with your position - not my perception of it.
 
Proformance said:
Seriously? You really think the name makes all the difference?

I'm sure it's possible Scott, that Ots is about to release the next best thing since the birth of Christ - then again, I see nothing in their recent history to suggest they are capable of anything other than lip service. Call me when they actually have a product they can document.

Buyer beware.
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lol...when did I...or anyone in this thread say anything about how good the update was going to be?

When did I say the name makes the difference? in fact, I said the exact opposite, that the name DOESNT make the difference. It's always been promoted as an upgrade

Do you even read posts before you disagree with them?
 
Proformance said:
When it requires so much rationalization to justify your position - then there is something clearly wrong with your position - not my perception of it.
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It wasn't clarifying my position, just pointing out all the flaws in your arguments. When someone can be so wrong so many times in one topic...it's difficult to keep it brief.

I tried keeping it brief and you just keep bringing up more and more things that SIMPLY ARE NOT TRUE and/or completely incorrect.
 
Bob - If the above is the actual email sent and looking over the website, I still don't see how one could call this bait-and-switch. It's a hail mary pass maybe, but all they are doing is hyping a next rev of the product hoping people will hang on with them as long as possible. Bait-and-switch requires the sale of one product and the substitution of another more expensive or higher-margined product .. clearly this is not.

You could certainly call it desperation or pleading, but it does not lend itself to the level of scamming. It is pretty clear, again going by the website and above email, that you are buying today's product at a discount and will get the next revision when it is available. Software companies do this all the time to keep people buying instead of holding off until the forthcoming release or worse, going to a competitor.
 
steve149 said:
Bob - If the above is the actual email sent and looking over the website, I still don't see how one could call this bait-and-switch. It's a hail mary pass maybe, but all they are doing is hyping a next rev of the product hoping people will hang on with them as long as possible. Bait-and-switch requires the sale of one product and the substitution of another more expensive or higher-margined product .. clearly this is not.

You could certainly call it desperation or pleading, but it does not lend itself to the level of scamming. It is pretty clear, again going by the website and above email, that you are buying today's product at a discount and will get the next revision when it is available. Software companies do this all the time to keep people buying instead of holding off until the forthcoming release or worse, going to a competitor.
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Steve,
Again, could not agree more. As I mentioned in my first post, I think it's pretty bad how long it's been taking. I think it is pleading, and I think they are...and probably SHOULD be embarrassed by how long it's been taking and trying to generate interest in it.

But, bait and switch and a scam? not even close. Some how, Bob took from it that I am somehow campaigning for this "new product" as he calls it.
 
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