Too Many DJs

ahoustondj said:

The thread was mainly for discussion and I still stand by my thinking that over saturation has caused somewhat of a decline. That is just the fact of simple economics. Too much of anything can cause a price drop for some.

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I don't see how it caused a decline...

In 1979, there were roughly 220 million people in this country, it is currently estimated by the census as about 320 to 340 million people. But the percentage of WORKING DJs, doesn't seem to have changed much, in regards to the population statistics.

Since the recession started in 2008, people are willing to spend less, and DJs, like anybody else (except the food market), are willing to make less in order to make up for it in volume. There comes a point of diminishing returns when you charge above what the market can afford. Let's say you make $20,000 for 20 shows at $1,000 per -- the other dude that charges $500 per show, and gets 50 shows, earns $5,000 more than you do.

People are cutting back on luxury expenses across the board (with the exception of the uber rich billionaires). You have to roll with supply and demand, and not just keep raising prices when it's not warranted...

SoftJock Rick said:

I don't see how it caused a decline...

In 1979, there were roughly 220 million people in this country, it is currently estimated by the census as about 320 to 340 million people. But the percentage of WORKING DJs, doesn't seem to have changed much, in regards to the population statistics.

Since the recession started in 2008, people are willing to spend less, and DJs, like anybody else (except the food market), are willing to make less in order to make up for it in volume. There comes a point of diminishing returns when you charge above what the market can afford. Let's say you make $20,000 for 20 shows at $1,000 per -- the other dude that charges $500 per show, and gets 50 shows, earns $5,000 more than you do.

People are cutting back on luxury expenses across the board (with the exception of the uber rich billionaires). You have to roll with supply and demand, and not just keep raising prices when it's not warranted...

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You mentioned a price point of 1k for a bench mark. Now I'm proud of a DJ that can get 1k or more to do an event. Now in certain cases a DJ that can get paid that much doesn't necessarily mean all they are providing is DJ services. Some of that cost may be add ons. What's wrong with a DJ raising their rates as they see fit. If it works good for them. Some of the increase may have to do with how much they have increased their prices. Rick mentioned raising his prices by $100.00. So that if I'm correct his starting price is $600.00-$700.00. Now depending on the type of service he provides that just may be a real bargain. And from what I've seen him post it looks that way.

MIXMASTERMACHOM said:

You mentioned a price point of 1k for a bench mark. Now I'm proud of a DJ that can get 1k or more to do an event. Now in certain cases a DJ that can get paid that much doesn't necessarily mean all they are providing is DJ services. Some of that cost may be add ons. What's wrong with a DJ raising their rates as they see fit. If it works good for them. Some of the increase may have to do with how much they have increased their prices. Rick mentioned raising his prices by $100.00. So that if I'm correct his starting price is $600.00-$700.00. Now depending on the type of service he provides that just may be a real bargain. And from what I've seen him post it looks that way.

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Simply raising the inflation rates.

To think of it in other terms, when I was buying gas for my car in the 70's, it was about 40 cents per gallon, now it's about $4 per gallon. It doesn't get me any farther or faster than it did then. I went grocery shopping the other day, and 4 half split chicken breasts cost me $9! That was about a $1.20 30 years ago -- is the chicken any better -- no, it still tastes like chicken.

Just arbitrarily raising rates, with no additional value is moronic. It's like giving an assembly line worker $30 an hour, to bolt on the same wheel, as it used to cost minimum wage. No wonder this country is in the sh_tter.

SoftJock Rick said:

Simply raising the inflation rates.

To think of it in other terms, when I was buying gas for my car in the 70's, it was about 40 cents per gallon, now it's about $4 per gallon. It doesn't get me any farther or faster than it did then. I went grocery shopping the other day, and 4 half split chicken breasts cost me $9! That was about a $1.20 30 years ago -- is the chicken any better -- no, it still tastes like chicken.

Just arbitrarily raising rates, with no additional value is moronic. It's like giving an assembly line worker $30 an hour, to bolt on the same wheel, as it used to cost minimum wage. No wonder this country is in the sh_tter.

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Today there are things that a DJ can offer that we couldn't when I first got started in 1981. I remember DJ's couldn't offer a client a ton of lights at that time. Now DJ's have so many choices to choose from for lighting. Like I said if you can raise your rates. Some may be at the top of the heap like Bob Carpenter that the last time I remember his starting price was I think $1,500.00. Now in his case this is all he does. So he has to command that much to start for him to be able to keep the lifestyle he is used to living with him and his wife.

The amazing thing is how much things have changed over the year. When I first got started the internet wasn't a big deal. Businesses didn't have websites back then to advertise themselves online. That went for lawyers as well as DJ's. There was no way to buy music online. You had to go to a store to purchase records. I remember a a store in NYC on Bleeker St. that sold Richard Long amps. At that time a big club where I used to party at was using their complete system that the sound and lights cost them $100,000.00. They sold records in that store and some were hard to get classics. I remember a 12" by James Brown sold for $75.00. That was how much I spent every 2 weeks on my music to DJ with. Now think of how much music you can buy off of the internet today for $75.00 compared to when you had to buy records. I would guess you can get a good 50-60 songs with that kind of money depending on where you buy the music.

When I first got started you had to have 2 turntables to DJ with and those required needles to play the records. Every so often you had to replace the needles because they would eventually wear down. Now I'm not complaining about a DJ having the modern technology to use to DJ with. It's very nice and much more convenient then lugging around crates of records to do an event. Even if you use CD's that's much better then carrying around 4 or 5 crates of records. Lately we've done gigs where people are amazed at what we use to DJ with.

The real problem is that it looks so easy that some think they can simply get a controller, laptop, some powered speakers and either put the music on the laptop or use an external HD to store the music so they can use it to play. And now they think that's all there is to it to become a DJ. What I find is important if you are truly serious about DJing is to work on your craft first before just rushing out to do events for people. Yes in the beginning you're going to make mistakes. That's normal. The thing is to learn as much as you can before you take your show on the road. Even then you still will make mistakes sometimes.

Hell we made one this past Saturday. We had everthing hooked up and was playing before I realized we forgot to put the power cord in the for the other sub so it would be on working.

Things change in life, there's no use in getting your panties all in a bunch over this.

Kirby Ball said:

Things change in life, there's no use in getting your panties all in a bunch over this.

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Gives us something to do, besides bombing a marathon -- WTF were they thinking. I guess they didn't have balls enough to bomb the White House

I recently dropped my prices by almost 50% -- sales have gone up, less piracy. I think most of us understand the economic climate, and are willing to adjust to meet its needs.

Big Dan said:

Aww chit thanks for the key phrase. If we're offline tomorrow DHS ceased our server and I'm on my way to Gitmo.

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We'll send cookies.. We don't want you to join their hunger strike.

SoftJock Rick said:

Gives us something to do, besides bombing a marathon -- WTF were they thinking. I guess they didn't have balls enough to bomb the White House

I recently dropped my prices by almost 50% -- sales have gone up, less piracy. I think most of us understand the economic climate, and are willing to adjust to meet its needs.

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Of course your sales have gone up! You cut your price for what you were charging by 50%. Yes sales may have gone up but are you still making the same money you were when your rates were 50% more then what they are now? Yea you get to do more gigs but at a cheaper price. That to me tells me that per gig your profit is less. Why sell yourself so short? Are you not worth the price you were charging before?

Now Steve Cie mentioned he doesn't do a gig for under $700.00. He has a lot of options that he can make more money from add ons. He told us in a presentation once with his light show that he used to charge 1k for that light show but because of the economy he's had to drop the price to $750.00. Just because the economy isn't the best right now doesn't mean that people won't pay a premium price for a service they feel is worth it. You said it yourself to show people what you truly are worth and they will pay it if they feel it's worth it. Then you contradict yourself and say you've cut your rates by 50%

I've learned the hard way to stop being scared of giving a person a price quote that I feel we're truly worth. I used to tell myself all the time that a potential client will never pay that much to book us as their DJ. No way! Yes there is a way! quote with confidence. I'm not talking about getting carried away. You were charging $500.00 and now want to jump the price all of a sudden to $1,500.00. That basically is stretching things a bit too far.

Today part of my business plan is to come up with starting prices for the type of events we. I remember a member on here made a great statement about me being all over the place when it comes to price. Going from $200.00 to 1k in price. They were certainly right! I'm looking to come up with starting prices that will realistically have potential clients wanting to book us without the price being so low we really don't get to make a decent profit from doing the event. Instead of our practice in the past giving out all these great deals and we're on the losing side of things.

That was a big reason why I bought the camera I did so I can get more evidence to show potential clients why we should be the DJ service they book to do their event. Things are coming along and picking up slowly. One thing I made my mind up about was no more doing private gigs for $250.00. Now my best friends big cook out is something I do as a freebie because he's just like my own brother to me. We've been best friends going on 45 years! So he can get away with that and it's a great time for all!

ahoustondj said:

There is such a thing as precedents, we see it every day in all aspects of our lives and the DJ business is no exception. People in some industries have long moved to set standards so that some precedents do not take root and become problematic. Many industries have sought to even register/certify these standards so it does not become a free for all.

Take for instance, in most states one has to be certified to become a Rigger, Real Estate Agent, Life Insurance Agent, Registered Interior Designer, Wedding Event Planner etc. The reason for this being was that before these certifications came into place the consumer public was not fully protected against any malpractices. Being ignorant as to what to expect, they fell prey to the rogue vendors offering up their versions of Professionalism.

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Mobile DJs are not an industry - they are a consumer niche. The gear is a segment of the retail trade, and all the expos and such that have followed are retail marketing to that consumer niche.

Keep in mind that Mobile DJs are born out of the consumption of the retail record product - consumption driven by Joe Average consumer. This "industry" exists as an extension of the way people use and enjoy retail music. As technology changes so do the applications - thus, DJs may very well melt back into the consumer pot from which they were cooked. "Everyone is a DJ" - because that is essentially where this has always been trending.

DJs were a temporary way to bridge the gaps - now those gaps are being bridged by new technology. The history of people buying professional DJ services does not by itself mean that those services were a perfect fit for the needs to be met. They may have simply been the best option at the time. Times are now changing and people are finding other more satisfying home grown ways to meet their music needs

MIXMASTERMACHOM said:

Of course your sales have gone up! You cut your price for what you were charging by 50%. Yes sales may have gone up but are you still making the same money you were when your rates were 50% more then what they are now? Yea you get to do more gigs but at a cheaper price. That to me tells me that per gig your profit is less. Why sell yourself so short? Are you not worth the price you were charging before?

Now Steve Cie mentioned he doesn't do a gig for under $700.00. He has a lot of options that he can make more money from add ons. He told us in a presentation once with his light show that he used to charge 1k for that light show but because of the economy he's had to drop the price to $750.00. Just because the economy isn't the best right now doesn't mean that people won't pay a premium price for a service they feel is worth it. You said it yourself to show people what you truly are worth and they will pay it if they feel it's worth it. Then you contradict yourself and say you've cut your rates by 50%

I've learned the hard way to stop being scared of giving a person a price quote that I feel we're truly worth. I used to tell myself all the time that a potential client will never pay that much to book us as their DJ. No way! Yes there is a way! quote with confidence. I'm not talking about getting carried away. You were charging $500.00 and now want to jump the price all of a sudden to $1,500.00. That basically is stretching things a bit too far.

Today part of my business plan is to come up with starting prices for the type of events we. I remember a member on here made a great statement about me being all over the place when it comes to price. Going from $200.00 to 1k in price. They were certainly right! I'm looking to come up with starting prices that will realistically have potential clients wanting to book us without the price being so low we really don't get to make a decent profit from doing the event. Instead of our practice in the past giving out all these great deals and we're on the losing side of things.

That was a big reason why I bought the camera I did so I can get more evidence to show potential clients why we should be the DJ service they book to do their event. Things are coming along and picking up slowly. One thing I made my mind up about was no more doing private gigs for $250.00. Now my best friends big cook out is something I do as a freebie because he's just like my own brother to me. We've been best friends going on 45 years! So he can get away with that and it's a great time for all!

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You are over-engineering things.

If you know the customer's needs - then you can predict their budget. If you understand the customers needs and budget and you want the job you quote appropriately. I do some events for $350 and others for $15,000. Totally different customers - totally different budgets. The only constant is that that I'm qualified to satisfy both.

Proformance said:

You are over-engineering things.

If you know the customer's needs - then you can predict their budget. If you understand the customers needs and budget and you want the job you quote appropriately. I do some events for $350 and others for $15,000. Totally different customers - totally different budgets. The only constant is that that I'm qualified to satisfy both.

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My point is on how we need to move up the scale and not keep doing such cheap gigs where we're getting paid $250.00-$350.00. All that ever did for us was keep us in a hole and very hard to dig ourselves out of the hole because all those gigs would lead us to is the next client not willing to pay no more then that. So thus was the merry go round effect. We kept going around and around but not getting us anywhere.

Big Dan said:

Aww chit thanks for the key phrase. If we're offline tomorrow DHS ceased our server and I'm on my way to Gitmo.

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No worries Danno -- I happen to know the way to Gitmo via boat...

DHS won't bother you -- trust me. I give them freebies all the time. You don't really believe that cop across the street is protecting 120 million gallons of fuel with a cheapy Glock, and eating a breakfast burrito do ya...?



MixMasterMachoMachoWTFWasIThinking:

I would presume you don't really read my posts -- I WRITE DJ SOFTWARE. I do a gig now and then for S&G, usually at a local bar or poolside. Most times anymore, I don't even charge -- just put out the tip jar. Keeps me in practice, helps develop my software, and I can usually walk out with a few hundred if I need it per night.

I prefer not to do it often any more, as I'm getting older, and prefer me time.

SoftJock Rick said:

No worries Danno -- I happen to know the way to Gitmo via boat...

DHS won't bother you -- trust me. I give them freebies all the time. You don't really believe that cop across the street is protecting 120 million gallons of fuel with a cheapy Glock, and eating a breakfast burrito do ya...?



MixMasterMachoMachoWTFWasIThinking:

I would presume you don't really read my posts -- I WRITE DJ SOFTWARE. I do a gig now and then for S&G, usually at a local bar or poolside. Most times anymore, I don't even charge -- just put out the tip jar. Keeps me in practice, helps develop my software, and I can usually walk out with a few hundred if I need it per night.

I prefer not to do it often any more, as I'm getting older, and prefer me time.

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That's fine if that's where you're at. It works for you good. But why tell others to lower their prices because the economy isn't doing so great right now? Then you went on to compare gas prices of yesterday to now. When the price of gas was under a dollar rents were much cheaper, food was much cheaper and we didn't have a lot of gadgets that we have on the market today. There was no such thing as people using laptops, cellphones, DVD players, IPads and so on.

So as things cost more then why shouldn't a DJ look at ways to charge more? Especially if you're doing this full time and not someone who has another job besides DJ. That was me for many years. So I wasn't depending on DJing to survive. Thus is another reason why I would do gigs for cheap or practically free. Since I've retired from my day job I've had a change of heart. I had times when I would go to do a gig and barely had the gas to make it there or money to buy a battery for the cordless mic. That's sad.

Now at that time I was doing it because I loved what I did. I still do but I realize today we need to raise our rates to get the proper compensation for the work we do. Also I made that decision because of all the money I have spent on the new gear and lights I've bought within the last year and half to 2 years.

MIXMASTERMACHOM said:

My point is on how we need to move up the scale and not keep doing such cheap gigs where we're getting paid $250.00-$350.00. All that ever did for us was keep us in a hole and very hard to dig ourselves out of the hole because all those gigs would lead us to is the next client not willing to pay no more then that. So thus was the merry go round effect. We kept going around and around but not getting us anywhere.

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Your delivery reinforces the price by way of proving your value. i.e.: A $250 gig proves you can solve a $250 problem, and perhaps are even up to the challenge of a $350-$450 gig.

What is your plan to demonstrate that you can deliver something valued at a substantially higher rate? If someone has $1,800 to spend how do you intend to demonstrate that you can deliver something of real value for that amount?

MIXMASTERMACHOM said:

That's fine if that's where you're at. It works for you good. But why tell others to lower their prices because the economy isn't doing so great right now?

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It's a starter Mix. I can live on less than $20k per year, and be just dandy. I don't have a lot of needs and wants. I don't mind the extra cash flow, but I won't rape people for it, and I'd blow it just as fast as I make it.

If we cut the inflation rate, everything starts to get cheaper again. That requires sacrifice on each persons part, and not greed.

Are you here to help the country, or to hurt it...?

SoftJock Rick said:

It's a starter Mix. I can live on less than $20k per year, and be just dandy. I don't have a lot of needs and wants. I don't mind the extra cash flow, but I won't rape people for it, and I'd blow it just as fast as I make it.

If we cut the inflation rate, everything starts to get cheaper again. That requires sacrifice on each persons part, and not greed.

Are you here to help the country, or to hurt it...?

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On the other hand, Jimmy Carter, if everyone spends less, sacrifices and cuts back, less goods and services are sold. which means less jobs and less taxes, which hurts the country.

If someone works more and makes more money, they pay more taxes, which helps the country.

If someonone has more money, they have the ability to hire people, which helps people, which helps the country

If someone has more money, they buy more things, which helps the economy, which helps people

I'd say making more money helps the country.

Scott Hanna said:

On the other hand, Jimmy Carter, if everyone spends less, sacrifices and cuts back, less goods and services are sold. which means less jobs and less taxes, which hurts the country.

If someone works more and makes more money, they pay more taxes, which helps the country.

If someonone has more money, they have the ability to hire people, which helps people, which helps the country

If someone has more money, they buy more things, which helps the economy, which helps people

I'd say making more money helps the country.

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I tend to disagree Scott.

a) We don't need more tax money, the gov't needs to spend less.
b) If someone wants to hire someone, do it for $10 an hour, versus $20 per hour for basic unskilled labor.
c) If things were lower cost, more people would buy them.


Our previous economic growth was built on cheap labor costs, and low cost of goods and services. How many people can afford a $40-50,000 dollar car these days? China is the new US -- they keep their labor costs low, sell products at a much lower rate, and they are being successful, because the volume makes up for it.

Proformance said:

I just think you are wrong about that.
It may not have been a laptop or iPod - but 30 years ago with different consumer technology that is exactly what "everyone" was doing. The storage and playback method may have changed - but, the way people play and behave has remained a constant.

It sounds like you have erroneously assigned gear and music to the "legitimacy" of a "DJ?" Being a DJ has never been and never will be about the gear. It's about being creative - and that has no such qualifier.

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I agree to a point, Pro....
but you have to admit, there was a lot more work involved in getting music back in the day.
You'd have to do your homework and subscribe to magazines to know what the hottest songs were...
you'd have to get in your car, and waste a little gas driving to the record store...
you'd have to find a way to store, organize and care for your lp's or 45's...
and if you were at a gig and didn't have a song, you could not download it instantly.

As for gear...owning the gear IS part of the qualifier.
In the past, the general public did not have (some of) the gear needed to do the job.
And they certainly did not own enough music to qualify.
These days, EVERYONE has a record collection on their phone.

- - - Updated - - -

SoftJock Rick said:

China is the new US -- they keep their labor costs low, sell products at a much lower rate, and they are being successful, because the volume makes up for it.

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WHO is successful in China?
Certainly NOT the workers!
They are paid wages lower than most American teenagers working at Burger King.

SoftJock Rick said:

It's a starter Mix. I can live on less than $20k per year, and be just dandy. I don't have a lot of needs and wants. I don't mind the extra cash flow, but I won't rape people for it, and I'd blow it just as fast as I make it. If we cut the inflation rate, everything starts to get cheaper again. That requires sacrifice on each persons part, and not greed. Are you here to help the country, or to hurt it...?

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People working minimum wage are living BELOW the poverty level. Comparing you, as a single guy with no kids is apples and oranges. And it's not the average worker that needs to sacrifice. Middle income wages have not grown in a long time. I think the big CEO's are the ones who need to sacrifice something. Like their million dollar bonuses.