Religion?????

The Wizard Of OZ said:

Religion and the concept of god is a fantasy world created by human beings.

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I appreciate you clarifying that for me

If a true god existed that is all powerful, all knowing and all seeing, so powerful that he created the universe and all within it, he would not create a world of brutality and depravity.

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Don't believe He did -- that would be a consequence of human behavior.

A supreme being would not allow the horrible things that occur daily among human beings.

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I take it you know quite a bit about supreme beings...?
If you know so much -- I guess they must exist, since you had to get your information somewhere. You don't happen to have an email address where they are hanging out, do you?

If god can create the universe, he can create a world where people behave humanely towards each other and where greed and corruption don't rule. Think about it.

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That would take all the fun out of it -- God probably needs some drama every now and then too

Religion is contrived and created by man.

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I can't disagree with you there -- organized religion is a product of mankind. Although, we don't know for sure whether God played a role in that...

Hate me and what I say because I speak the truth and say what others do not dare to say because they will be ostracized.

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Your "truth", is no different than my truth, or Billy Bob's truth. It is purely speculation. The only "truth", is that which is not FALSE. What is the definition of FALSE? Your definition of FALSE, may be my TRUE...

I don't care anymore, I speak the truth and I am willing to suffer the anger of those that cling to mythical ancient tribal fables passed down through the ages repeated over and over until they become ingrained in the minds of the tellers and the ones that listen.

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Reminds me of something Hamlet said

People lie to themselves everyday, it's a way of life.

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Speak for yourself.

They can't handle not knowing or understanding so they cling to religion as a crutch to rationalize their existence, pablum for the masses who live lives of dreary desperation and oppressive poverty. This world is so bad for so many that their only hope is a better life in the next world.

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You've been listening to a lot of Obama speeches, eh...


Wiz,

For somebody that says they want to debate, you have left out any options for such debate, as you "present" your "truth" to us, and our views do not matter in your eyes.

You want us to prove that God exists to you.

I'll make you a friendly wager: If you can prove that God does not exist, I will prove that He does... Sound fair?



Anyway, just so you know, my dogs name is Faith, and dog spelled backwards is, well God

And, even though I was trained to be a priest, I no longer attend any church, nor practice in that capacity. That is not a sign that I do not believe in the value of organized religion, only that it is not my path to walk at this time.

An organized religion, can be very spiritually and morally uplifting, has great social value, and can help those on their way to learning more about themselves and their internal beliefs.

Ya never know, ya might like it yourself -- can't hurt to try...

If you were born in Papua New Guinea, in the jungle, you might have an animistic view of god and you might be a head hunter and think that it was an important part of you religion and spiritual belief. If you were born in Japan you might be a Shinto worshiping your ancestors, if you were born in Korea you might be worshiping Kim Jung Il, if you were born in Iran you might be a Muslim and think that Muhammad was the true prophet and if you were born in Utah you might believe that Joseph Smith had the true bible revealed to him and all others are lacking because they don't know the revelations of god to Joseph Smith.

Seems to me that what people believe, their faith, their god, and their religion has a lot more to do with where they were born and what they were taught as a small child than anything else.

I was raised by devout Catholics, and my wife was raised by fanatical Catholics.

My mom played organ at church, and my dad sings in the choir. My dad is a Lay Minister. I went to Catholic school for all but four years of my primary education. I was so sick of religion that I was Atheist by the time I graduated from high school and my beliefs were in line with Wiz's: Religion is a crutch and comfort for humans who can't handle the fact that when they die, it's all over, and there's no "there" there; there is no "afterlife."

When I got into my car crash in 1979, my thinking changed. When you've come back from the dead (I didn't have a pulse when they used the Jaws of Life to get me out of the car), you tend to have a different take on things. I got more faith-based than religion-based. I didn't have an OOB experience--actually, I don't remember a thing for 98% of my five weeks spent in a coma--but I felt lucky to be alive, nonetheless.

Over the years I've gone back and forth with my religious beliefs and my faith. In the early and mid 80s I attended church almost every Sunday, mainly for the sense of community. Since about 1986 I've called myself a Christmas & Easter Catholic, and a few years ago I refined it to the point that I call myself an Occasional Catholic now.

Being an avid fan of astronomy and speculation about the universe and our role in it, I'm currently an Agnostic. One thing I wonder about is, why would a Supreme Being have the need to be praised and adored and worshiped so much? Is this God so insecure that he/she/it needs to be idolized by us for our entire lifetimes? It would make more sense to me for God to simply take satisfaction in the art of creation and the results from it.

Another thing is the Bible. Written by man. God's word? Says who? I think it's a nice book if people need that crutch. If it keeps its readers from acting uncivilized, then that's a good thing. But to me it's not the be-all, end-all tome. Same for any religion's Holy Book.

Could we really be so arrogant as to think that in the entire universe, we're the only living creations in it? Why do we think we're so special? I have no doubt at all that even in our own galaxy we're not unique. The sheer number of other planetary systems in the Milky Way with the right conditions for what we call "life" makes our uniqueness suspect. Multiply that by the billions of galaxies in the universe and the uncountable number of planetary systems in each.

What if our version of life actually started a few billion years ago as an experimental bacterium sent by some life form elsewhere in the universe?

Although I don't believe in Creationism, I find it very dubious that the Big Bang theory is valid, too. Just as one thought, if all mass was super-condensed in a singularity that exploded billions of years ago, then where was it, and what did it explode into? If all matter is expanding, then 1) we should be able to tell where its source point is, i.e., the location of the original singularity; and 2) the outer edge of the expanding matter would be defined, and again, what's beyond that edge? Where is everything going?

I posed question 2 to an Astronomy Prof in college, and his simple answer was, "That's cheating."

As for Creationism, look at the history of the earth. For hundreds of millions of years, the earth spun around our star, the sun, and finally the conditions were right for simple life to begin. It took hundreds of millions of years, with all sorts of life forms coming into being and eventually becoming extinct to be replaced by something else, for mankind to develop. Folks, mankind's longevity isn't even a blip on the radar when you take into account how long the earth has been around.

A Catholic priest friend of mine once told me that he has no problem with evolution. Even if you go all the way back to when the first germ of life appeared on our planet, it had to be created by something. And for him, that's where God had his/her/its role. From that first spark of life, evolution and mutation and natural selection have taken their courses to where we find things today.

But I do think that religion is nothing more than a business model selling salvation.

And what about what we can perceive? We can only sense in very minute ways. The light spectrum is a small band of all wavelengths. We perceive things in three dimensions. Are there others that we cannot perceive because we're not able to? Maybe we haven't evolved to a sufficient degree to be able to detect things in other dimensions. Maybe there's a lot more to the universe than we know.

Maybe we do have other lives or states which we will return to when we die, and our souls will be sent elsewhere to fulfill other missions.

I know this post is all over the board, but these are random thoughts that this thread has inspired in me. Your mileage may vary.

Rick, you seem to be very sarcastic about what I had to say, but I don't claim to know it all, I just gave my VERY unpopular opinion. I see people lieing to themselves all the time, I am speaking for myself, this is my observation, you obviously don't like what I have to say. I see the sleazy TV evangelists robbing people in the name of religion, it's disgusting.

I talked about supreme beings in the context of how people believe in them based on their religious books like the bible. It's not my view, it's your view, it's based on the first paragraph of Genesis. In the beginning god created the heavens and the earth. That's a supreme being is it not? Does it not say in the bible that god created man? Isn't that a supreme being? This is what you believe. Is it possible that there is a god? Absolutely! Anything is possible.


As far as my truth, it is speculation, I never said it wasn't. It's the truth as I see it. I asked a lot of questions along with the statements I made. I say that I BELIEVE that religion is fantasy. I don't have faith that it is, these are my ideas and thoughts about religion and god, not my faith. These ideas come from observation and contemplation not from faith.

I don't want you to prove god exists, you can't, what I did was express my thoughts and ideas. I know they're unpopular and that they make people uncomfortable and angry. People want to live in their religious make believe world-do what allows you to make it through each day. Be angry at me because I think your religious beliefs are no more valid than the science fiction that L Ron Hubbard turned into a "religion" called Scientology.

I said I wanted to debate because people get so bent out of shape that the only thing they express is anger, no thoughts, no ideas, no persuasive argument for their point of view, just anger and resentment.

If someone is so sure of their beliefs they should be able to give a good sound argument that has merit. All I see from most people is anger that their belief system is being challenged. If it's so strong then what's the problem? If it's weak then maybe it's based on false hope and fallacies.

Well said Brian!

Until recently people didn't have the technology to understand anything other than what they could see, taste, hear, smell or touch. They thought the sun revolved around the earth and that the earth was the center of the universe. Galileo spent his last years under house arrest under orders of the inquisition because he said the earth revolved around the sun. He was considered a heretic because what he observed as an astronomer was contrary to the scriptures. There's a lot more of these kinds of stories where this came from. I didn't make any of it up.

Humans just recently emerged from living in caves. In some ways we're still in the stone age clinging to superstitions and magical forces.

The Wizard Of OZ said:

Rick, you seem to be very sarcastic about what I had to say, but I don't claim to know it all, I just gave my VERY unpopular opinion. I see people lieing to themselves all the time, I am speaking for myself, this is my observation, you obviously don't like what I have to say.

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Has nothing to do with WHAT you have to say Wiz, it is HOW you say it.

You are very condescending in your words -- I see no debate in those words, only you explaining how everyone else is wrong, and you are correct.

My faith is based upon my experiences with God -- not a book, or a class, or a professor. That cannot be challenged, as I have experienced it. There is no way for me to prove or disprove it, as it happened to me. My faith is absolute, that is all I can offer.

I do not know what your observations are, or your interactions with the Lord, so I cannot debate something that you will not put forth.

You will not get anger from someone who has interacted with the Lord, just because you believe differently. But, being condescending, and calling into question THEIR beliefs, will probably not get you any brownie points either


Think about this statement you made:

I said I wanted to debate because people get so bent out of shape that the only thing they express is anger, no thoughts, no ideas, no persuasive argument for their point of view, just anger and resentment.

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So, is it that you want -- people to get bent out of shape, stir the pot a bit...?

If so, come over and help me brew some beer -- that requires a lot of stirring

I personally believe, you have the right to believe what you want and no one should judge you.

I believe there is a god, I used to be a weekly church goer until someone thought they were the "god" and thought they could tell me how I should live, then I left.

So the way I raise my kids is to believe in god and that he loves them, but you don't need to be in a church to believe.

I believe church is for people who want to take your money and put demands on your soul, and when you really need them they aren't there for you.

So that's my take...

How come He gets all the credit?

What do I look like - chicken liver :sqerr:


I'm the guy that brings you booze, sex, drugs and rock and roll. Have some consideration here.

This is an endless debate ....Simply Put by the Beatles all you need is Love....Guess what Jesus said the same thing Wiz my friend your beliefs are understandable I felt the same way once. I will not fault you for your views and hope you won't fault me for mine.. .... al you need is love love ..Love is all you need.. Everybody Sing .....

I hope some day to have the pleasure of meeting you Barry. You are a kind soul. I appreciate your humor and I believe you truly care about other people. Your comments here at ODJT have consistently entertained me. Thank you. I wish there were a lot more people in the world like you.

Oz:

Suppose you had the power to create a universe and populate it. Suppose you loved the creatures you created and the only thing that you wanted from them was to love you as well. If you forced these creatures to love you would that make you feel good or would it be empty?

God does love us and wants us to love Him as well but he does not want it to be a hollow forced love. He wants us to do it of our own free will. That is why he gave us free will; so that we can make the choice to love Him or not.

He also wants us to love each other but he wants to have a choice in that as well. Unfortunately many make the choice to be cruel to their fellow man.

God does not step in because that would take away free will.

That's the best answer I have for you.

The Wizard Of OZ said:

It would be boring if people were good and not evil? God couldn't create people with free will who were nice to each other? There would be no art or music or humor and it would be boring? that's nonsense. God is all powerful and he created us in his image. Isn't his image one of goodness? Is that what you see in the world?

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The key here is image. Images are copies and copies are not always perfect. God never intended man to be a perfect copy of Himself. Man was always intended to be a finite copy that lasted for a time. A finite copy in which the spark of God that was given to man could live, learn, and return the love given by God.

The imperfect image has three parts; physical body, animating soul, and eternal spirit.

So Cal Hugh said:

Not so much the content. I have discussed this with many people over the years. But the tone. If a preacher came on here and discussed his/her point of view with the tone Oz is currently using, would the hackles of others come up? Most likely.

Think, explore, discuss, challenge, seek, etc. But respect.

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Well, Reverend is part of my title by ordination. Do I count as a preacher?

knardini said:

One thing that really struck me this past weekend as I sat and listened to the father preaching...then I looked at everyone listening to his every word and I wondered (wished) I could "believe" so freeley as they all were. Then I thought about my wife :sqerr: She is ALWAYS right, and I'm always wrong :sqembarrassed: Seriously, directions....simple judgement calls....even "who's singing this obscure song from the 80's"...I'm never right. So why do I think I know for a fact there cannot be a God when I'm not even right with the simple stuff. I have such a scientific slant to everything that it seems laughable that something other than evolution has a hand in our world around us. I don't know where this little journey will take me...maybe back to square one - but maybe not

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Kris, as a scientist, use the Scientific Method.

Look at the universe around you. How much of it really is random chance?

Knowing that we do not and cannot know all in this present existence due to physical limitations also limits what can be applied logically. There are just certain things that logic cannot explain because we don't know enough to explain this.

Rick, would I be condescending if I criticized the religious belief that gets someone to strap a bomb to their body and blow themselves up in a crowded place where a bunch of strangers are shopping? In the name of Islam these religious fanatics kill themselves and others. They proclaim Allah akbar!!! God is great! Right before they press the button on the detonator.

They believe in what they're doing just as fervently as you believe in your religion, maybe even more, they're willing to die for it.

Can you say that what they do in the name of god is right or wrong?

If you say it's wrong are you criticizing someone else's religious beliefs?

The Wizard Of OZ said:

Can you say that what they do in the name of god is right or wrong?

If you say it's wrong are you criticizing someone else's religious beliefs?

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If their belief does not contradict the law, fine. However, strapping a bomb on yourself and detonating it among others is murder.

When the Sacred Months are over, kill those who ascribe partners to God wheresoever ye find them; seize them, encompass them, and ambush them; then if they repent and observe prayer and pay the alms, let them go their way (Koran 4:5)

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You tell me.