Religion?????

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I hate to break it to you Goodknightdj, lots of people have been killed, I dare say murdered in the name of Christianity. Read history. People have been burned at the stake, beheaded, drowned and a variety of other horrible things.

Read the bible carefully, there is a lot of violence and people being smitten for one thing or another and being told to go smite someone. The ancient Hebrews used blood sacrifices. Today people would be horrified to see 7 oxen killed at an alter and their blood used to appease a god. They would say it was barbaric and primitive, like what an ignorant savage in the jungle would do. That is the roots of christianity. Animal sacrifice.

Since you brought it up, I think religion IS brainwashing and the more zealous someone is, the more I believe they are a victim of this brainwashing.

I'm not sure this is really going with the flow of the conversation, but it's something that bothers me. Someone who is a priest or a pastor or a rabbi who betrays the the god who they represent commits a worse offense than an average person who is expected to be weak and subject to carnal desires. A religious leader is and should be held to a higher standard. They have no excuse. If they can't control themselves they have no business being a leader. How many times has this happened recently in the Catholic church? What was done about it? It was the biggest coverup of the last couple of centuries. Pedophiles and predators were simply move to a different geographical location. They weren't punished for their crimes against humanity. Even in the secular world there are sanctions and punishment for that kind of behavior.

How can god have an organization who represent him on earth that is so corrupt and lacks the moral fiber that average people have every day? Many average laypeople conduct their lives in dignity without raping children, without living lives of depravity. Isn't god all powerful? Couldn't god have an organization that represented him with goodness, with integrity, that was a shining beacon for the world of what the goodness of god represents? Is that what you see??? It's not what I see.
 
Harry, for whatever reason you don't want me to voice my opinion, I'm not sure I understand why. It's a matter of having thoughts and ideas and expressing them. You equate this to me trying to control others. Everything I've said is how I feel and what I think, it's not a matter of if I care what someone believes in as a Muslim, Christian, Jew, Rastafari etc., I said what I think about it. Some people here think I'm an a$$hole, that's their true feelings and what THEY think. I said religion is fantasy and that's considered rude and condescending. It's how I feel and what I think.

You said "What do you care if your neighbors are Satanists, Baptists, Wiccans or worship Joe Pesce? We each have to look after our own house, right?"

Does this mean I can't have an opinon about it? Does it mean I can't discuss my ideas? I guess so, because people have a hissy fit.

How dare you challenge the church and all it stands for, that's blasphemy, it's heresy, it's disrespectful, it's just wrong.

People don't want to hear or think about my ideas, it messes up their head.
 
The Wizard Of OZ said:
Harry, for whatever reason you don't want me to voice my opinion, I'm not sure I understand why. It's a matter of having thoughts and ideas and expressing them. You equate this to me trying to control others. Everything I've said is how I feel and what I think, it's not a matter of if I care what someone believes in as a Muslim, Christian, Jew, Rastafari etc., I said what I think about it. Some people here think I'm an a$, that's their true feelings and what THEY think. I said religion is fantasy and that's considered rude and condescending. It's how I feel and what I think.

You said "What do you care if your neighbors are Satanists, Baptists, Wiccans or worship Joe Pesce? We each have to look after our own house, right?"

Does this mean I can't have an opinon about it? Does it mean I can't discuss my ideas? I guess so, because people have a hissy fit.

How dare you challenge the church and all it stands for, that's blasphemy, it's heresy, it's disrespectful, it's just wrong.

People don't want to hear or think about my ideas, it messes up their head.
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No, speaking for myself, that is not true. What comes off as abrasive to me is a lack of tolerance. I will listen to anyones opinion or belief. I get uncomfortable when I start getting preached to. I grow less comfortable when I feel I am being talked down to because of what I may or may not believe.

For example...if someone approaches me on the street and says "Have you heard the word of God", that is cool. If I choose to continue walking and they follow me and harrass me, I may start getting irked. If I share my belief with them and get told that I will be damned to hell because there is only one true god..., then I will think a lot less of the messenger of that message.

I am not looking to silence ANYONE, but, be aware that you have made your belief clear, and you seem to be becoming confrontational to anyone who seems to have an opposing belief. That is where you appear to be losing favor in the dialog.

I actually have a Jehovahs Witness that stops by and chats with me that I do not mind talking to, because she listens equally as much as she talks, and I can express any opinion, even if it disagrees with her belief, and she listens and studies on it...and answers intelligently and on point. It is not a lopsided dialog. HOWEVER, I have a sister who is an evangelical. If I were to invite her to the dialog, she will be the one who becomes the pitbull because to her, JESUS is the only way.

Me? I would just sit and listen, then continue doing whatever I wanted to do, for myself.

Fervent disbelievers can be as annoying as zealous believers IMHO.

VOICE that opinion. Then stop, and let others digest and state theirs without opposition. We are all on separate paths. No problem telling us what you see on yours, just dont brag that the view HAS to be better on yours than mine.
 
The Wizard Of OZ said:
I hate to break it to you Goodknightdj, lots of people have been killed, I dare say murdered in the name of Christianity. Read history. People have been burned at the stake, beheaded, drowned and a variety of other horrible things.

Read the bible carefully, there is a lot of violence and people being smitten for one thing or another and being told to go smite someone. The ancient Hebrews used blood sacrifices. Today people would be horrified to see 7 oxen killed at an alter and their blood used to appease a god. They would say it was barbaric and primitive, like what an ignorant savage in the jungle would do. That is the roots of christianity. Animal sacrifice.
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Man has been doing his best to interpret what God wants for our entire existence here on the third rock. I make no excuses for the things that have been done. It is like those suicide bombers you have been talking about. They thought that they were right in what they did.

The Wizard Of OZ said:
Since you brought it up, I think religion IS brainwashing and the more zealous someone is, the more I believe they are a victim of this brainwashing.
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When I was little my parents required me to go to Sunday School. There I had to memorize things and was taught things I really didn't understand. Additionally, if I didn't go, I was punished.

Honestly, I was never punished because the Nuns that were teaching were nice, my mom would come and get me after class, and I would always be treated to a comic book on the way home. Knowing that I could buy the comic book was the hook that kept me there. :sqbiggrin:

As I grew up, I began to understand some of the lessons that, in the beginning, had been taught by rote. In the middle school ang high school portion of Sunday School (which I was now attending voluntarilly as it was not a requirement after Confirmation) classes were not taught by Nuns but by laypeople. I was able to ask informed questions and get back informed answers.

I can't say that I was brain washed through this process. I had (except when very young) a choice in my beliefs and I still have that. I have considered many times leaving Catholisism and becoming Episcopalian so that I may make the next step to Minister.

The Wizard Of OZ said:
I'm not sure this is really going with the flow of the conversation, but it's something that bothers me. Someone who is a priest or a pastor or a rabbi who betrays the the god who they represent commits a worse offense than an average person who is expected to be weak and subject to carnal desires. A religious leader is and should be held to a higher standard. They have no excuse. If they can't control themselves they have no business being a leader. How many times has this happened recently in the Catholic church? What was done about it? It was the biggest coverup of the last couple of centuries. Pedophiles and predators were simply move to a different geographical location. They weren't punished for their crimes against humanity. Even in the secular world there are sanctions and punishment for that kind of behavior.

How can god have an organization who represent him on earth that is so corrupt and lacks the moral fiber that average people have every day? Many average laypeople conduct their lives in dignity without raping children, without living lives of depravity. Isn't god all powerful? Couldn't god have an organization that represented him with goodness, with integrity, that was a shining beacon for the world of what the goodness of god represents?
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Ron, you have the right to ask that. Would it shock you to know that these things have happened in other faiths as well but have not been as widely publisized?

Religious organizations, like the humans that run them, are not perfect.

God is all powerful but stepping in and making us all good would be eliminating our free will and turning us into puppets.

I'll ask this again, if you were to create a universe and populate it with beings that are capable of love and the only thing that you wanted from them was to love you and each other, wouldn't you give them the freedom to make that choice? If man does not have free will then man is devoid of the capability of giving unconditional love because unconditional love requires a choice.

I'll leave you with this parable...

A few years back a soldier coming home called his mom. This is their conversation:

Soldier: Mom, I'm coming back home and I'm bringing a freind.
Mom: That's great.
Soldier: Can he stay with us for a while?
Mom: A friend of yours is a friend of mine. He is welcome.
Soldier: Well, he was seriously wounded.
Mom: Ohhhh
Soldier: He was mamed pretty badly. One could say that his was very disfigered.
Mom: Well....
Soldier: As a matter of fact he also lost a leg and an arm.
Mom: Well, you'd better not bring your friend then because people will talk.
Soldier: Oh. OK Mom, talk to you later. Click

That soldier killed himself because he was describing himself to his mom. If she had shown even a little unconditional love and told her son to bring his friend home anyway, things would have been much different.
 
Harry, what I'm doing is exactly what you said, I am confronting peoples' most cherished beliefs. People need to be challenged, I need to be challenged. I appreciate the opportunity to be able to think and to be intellectually stimulated. Sometimes it's painful.
 
No...look at the difference between your dialog, and mine, and the others. Look at the question Kris initially asked. As people decided to drop their own opinions, they did so, then walked away without the argument and confrontation. You want to keep challenging and arguing the points. Is this really the place to do that?

I pick my wars carefully, and try to be sure I am in a proper location for a battle. You obviously got some input before you decided on your path, just as I did. I think that is what Kris is looking for. Honestly, you are coming off more as a recruiter of non belief, LOL. Just an observation. Those secure in their beliefs dont NEED to be challenged or challenge. That is a rub.
 
I have a newsflash for you folks, George Carlin says the same stuff that I just said. I'm not the first to come along and say or think these things.

A lot more people out there feel the same way as I do and they would say the same thing, but they don't want to take the heat from religious people.

Some people in this "discussion" say they don't like the way I said what I said. That's double talk for they don't like what I am saying.

How can you say that religion is a fantasy world created by man without making people mad? I don't think you can.
 
Here's my thoughts.


1. God created Evolution. Who said 7 biblical days couldn't be a billion years each?

2. No God? Then who could be responsible for creating the universe? I feel like our entire galaxy is just one spec of dirt under God's toenail. Something larger is at work.

3. Scientists are constantly trying to prove the existence of God.
Just like they are trying now to disprove Global Warming.

4. I'm Catholic, and I'm sure my priest hasn't touched any little boys. There are wierdos every where. With 1,000,000,000 Catholics out there, you are bound to find many idiots in the pews as well. (By the way Kris, unlike Muslims, we don't torture our women and children) Graphic article here, WARNING

5. If you find love in your soul and peace in your heart, that may be God at work. If you find pain and sorrow, he's reminding you that you are still alive. Use your time wisely.
 
I ask some of the same questions Jeremiah.

How can the universe be without limits? How can it be infinite?

How is it possible that there are billions of galaxies and within each galaxy billions of stars? I can't come close to being able to comprehend it, it makes my head want to explode thinking about it.

If god created the universe and all in it, who created god?

If god has always existed and is as unlimited as the universe, where did he come from?

Where is god?

Why can't you see god or really know that god exists if he is so powerful that he created the universe?

Those that have faith don't really know any more about god than anyone else, they just think they do.

Before the CONCEPT of one god came along most people believed in many gods.

Those people that believe in one god believe that their concept of god is more worthy than the belief of people who believe in many gods or spirits. (that's in the bible)

To me they are both the same, superstition and magical powers.
 
Hey Wiz, just curious, but do you remember who posted this...? ;)


I couldn't disagree more. If you want to see friends never talk to each other again get them into discussion about politics or religion. I hope that stuff stays in the man lounge and off the main board. Politics, religion and lifestyle are taboo subjects as far as I am concerned. You can do whatever you want.
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Sorry Lord, I just couldn't resist :)
 
I'm a Roman Catholic...although I don't practise much. I'm very dis-illusioned with the Catholic Church in particular....although most organized religion irks me to some extent. They seem more like a business that a religion.....I guess I haven't found the one that gives me what I need. Somehow I don't think Jesus had this in mind preaching as he did way back then.

I do though believe in my God, just as the Chinese beieve in their God , the Pygmies believe in theirs...There is a supreme being. How we see that supreme being depends on where we were brought up and how we were brought up....I don't think any God truly advocates murder, intolerance or any other bad things.....Blame that on man's mis-interpretation of the message.

I try to lead a good life, try to help others as much as I can..to me that's "christian".

Wiz - the bible isn't God's autobiography; he didn't write it (neither is the Koran)...so I take it for what it is......

Here's a bigger question.......Does it really end when we die...Is it like a light switch; every thing goes black.? Look how advanced we are yet we can't dupicate vision; machines can't replacate the brain's abilities.....Talk about wondering.....
 
The Wizard Of OZ said:
I ask some of the same questions Jeremiah.

How can the universe be without limits? How can it be infinite?

How is it possible that there are billions of galaxies and within each galaxy billions of stars?

If god created the universe and all in it, who created god?

If god has always existed and is as unlimited as the universe, where did he come from?

Where is god?

Why can't you see god or really know that god exists if he is so powerful that he created the universe?
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This tale goes round and round. Questions beget more questions.

I ask:

Why couldn't the universe be infinite?

God exists, but may it be that time does not?

Why do you think billions of billions of stars is any more impressive than the trillions of cells within your own body?

Did nature come up with that biological plan by itself?

Did nature move its only super thinking creature from Omnitheism to Monotheism in an attempt to help man understand Him better?

We as a species run in packs when it comes to religion. Could it be that religion, however imperfect, may be a vehicle to get people thinking about a larger picture and what lies beyond our life?

Or are we simply stardust moving aimlessly around the universe?

Praying to God makes me feel good and prayer works.

I may die and never see God. I may die and rejoice with Him.

Either way, the power of prayer and the ease of my heart and compassion the church has taught me in my journey will never be taken from me in death.

One final question:

Who does an Atheist cry out for in their hour of death?
 
If this had been posted in the Knuckle Draggers Forum I would have never seen this and everyone would have been spared my views on religion. Unfortunately that room has been closed.
 
I just recently saw a movie called Idiocracy late one night on cable. It's supposedly about the world 500 years into the future, I think it's really about the world right now. The movie is pretty ridiculous, it's probably really, really funny if you're high. But it did make me think. I doubt that's what the people who made the movie had in mind though.
 
The Wizard Of OZ said:
If this had been posted in the Knuckle Draggers Forum I would have never seen this and everyone would have been spared my views on religion. Unfortunately that room has been closed.
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I dont think anyone OBJECTS to your view, I think they object to your objection of theirs. Therein lies the difference.

Take Davy, who expressed the same view in 2 posts. Or Cam who did it in one. They were not looking to challenge or confront.

If a Christian, a Jew, A Muslim and a Wiccan board member all tried as hard to make you see their point of view as you have to make us see yours, it would be quite the free for all wouldnt it, LOL?

Be personally secure in your own belief without the need to make others feel the same way. That is why they are called PERSONAL beliefs.
 
The Wizard Of OZ said:
I ask some of the same questions Jeremiah.

How can the universe be without limits? How can it be infinite?

How is it possible that there are billions of galaxies and within each galaxy billions of stars? I can't come close to being able to comprehend it, it makes my head want to explode thinking about it.

If god created the universe and all in it, who created god?

If god has always existed and is as unlimited as the universe, where did he come from?

Where is god?

Why can't you see god or really know that god exists if he is so powerful that he created the universe?
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Those are good questions. Mankind has been asking them ever since mankind could ask questions. Keep asking them and please, if you want to continue this talk, you can PM me. I'm having a great time with this. I love this kind of debate.

For my money, you are putting forth some very intelligent arguments and questions. I hope my answers have been likewise.

The Wizard Of OZ said:
Those that have faith don't really know any more about god than anyone else, they just think they do.
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I never said I did. I only konow what I have the capacity of knowing and I am also willing to modify my concepts when given evidence that it needs to be modified.

The Wizard Of OZ said:
Before the CONCEPT of one god came along most people believed in many gods.

Those people that believe in one god believe that their concept of god is more worthy than the belief of people who believe in many gods or spirits. (that's in the bible)
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If you are saying that God asking us to put himself before all else is saying that monotheists are more worthy then I have to disagree.

Is my guess that you are a Wikkan, a nature worshipper, correct? Nature was created by God and can be considered an aspect of God therefore you are worshipping God.

Many Eastern religions believe that each person has a higher self; a spiritual self. The process of meditation is to reach that higher self or higher conciousness. It can also be seen as reaching a stage of spiritual enlightenment. In the Hindu and Buddhist faiths it is called Samadhi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Samadhi_Mandir,_Srila_Prabhupad,_ISKCON,_Vrindavan.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7f/Samadhi_Mandir%2C_Srila_Prabhupad%2C_ISKCON%2C_Vrindavan.jpg/200px-Samadhi_Mandir%2C_Srila_Prabhupad%2C_ISKCON%2C_Vrindavan.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/7/7f/Samadhi_Mandir%2C_Srila_Prabhupad%2C_ISKCON%2C_Vrindavan.jpg/200px-Samadhi_Mandir%2C_Srila_Prabhupad%2C_ISKCON%2C_Vrindavan.jpg. Many believe that when one reaches the higher state one becomes one with God.

The Wizard Of OZ said:
To me they are both the same, superstition and magical powers.
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Let's just suffice it to say that there are many things that we don't understand about the universe we live in and we will not understand until it is revealed to us.
 
The Wizard Of OZ said:
I just recently saw a movie called Idiocracy late one night on cable. It's supposedly about the world 500 years into the future, I think it's really about the world right now. The movie is pretty ridiculous, it's probably really, really funny if you're high. But it did make me think. I doubt that's what the people who made the movie had in mind though.
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Great movie! Given that is was created by Mike Judge, I am certain it was meant to be more thought provocative. We really could be headed in that direction, although he did a great job of exaggerating the point.

South Park is another great example of base humor with a great lesson. They have a CD set called Passion Of The Jew that has 3 religious episodes on it. I would highly recommend everyone see the episode titled Red Hot Catholic Love, and also Christian Rock Hard.
 
I'm not a wiccan, that is ridiculous stuff. It's magic without the pretense of Christian magical fascination with spirit and the mystery of god. Wiccans outright believe in magic and say so. They have spells and incantations, not unlike Christian prayers. Christians don't call what they believe in magic.

I'm not any of those things that you mentioned Goodnightdj. I don't worship or participate in religions of any kind. If some day I get some sort of proof of god or have an experience that convinces me that all the things I said here are wrong then I will be the first to admit it and will certainly want to share it with others.

If a god exists and I never said it was impossible that god exists, why would I not want to know and then show god all respect and admiration if that's what he wants?

I don't believe there is a god in the Judeo-Christian concept. That's what I've been saying all along.

I understand the world, god and the universe in the only way I can, with the limited mental powers that I have. Just like I have a limited knowledge and understanding of physics and a limited ability to understand the complex mathematical calculations that lead to a deeper understanding of physics. I understand the basics, that's all. The same goes for my understanding of life, god and the universe. It's beyond my human ability IMO. What I freely and copiously admit is that I don't know. I don't think anyone knows until they die.
 
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