New Behringer Iron...

Lets be real!

Why would anyone try to compare Behringer amps or any other product they make to reputable brands that proved themselves over time? They sucked from day one and they suck today. They're designed to compete with Gemini and Pyle Pro amps.

Even back in my broke DJ days, 1990. I knew well enough to stay away from garbage gear and save up for quality. Their were many turntables that came out that tried to replicate the look and feel of the Technics 1200. They all died off and the legendary 1200 is still around today gracing many clubs with their quality and presence.

BTW, just wanted to clarify something...

I am not involved in the pissing match above (I have a big one -- couldn't care less)


I want to know why brand A is being touted as better than brand B, and whether the price differential is worth it. I also want to know if the circuit boards are the same (or reasonable facsimiles), that are functionally equivalent.


Convince me why I should spend more money...

SoftJock Rick said:

Just for S&G, and since Bosch doesn't advert here...

(don't mind me, just playing Devil's Advocate to learn more).


Can we see close ups of the circuit boards, wiring, etc., for two comparable products...? Please don't be subjective when I say two comparable products -- you get my drift.

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Rick...actually we signed a contract recently with Dan to begin advertising here. We are creating the banner as we speak and it should be up in the next week or so.

Nevertheless, I am happy to show anyone what makes our stuff stand out from the crowd. Name the model and I will take pics of whatever you want.

I may or may not be able to provide any competitive pics and really I shouldn't anyhow as I will probably end up being accused of doctoring the photos or some other ridiculous thing.

Let's just agree to look at the important parts of the amp...power supply, etc. I don't want someone to see two amps that both have Neutrik speakon outputs and say "See...I told you they use the same components".

Michael Doucot said:

Rick...actually we signed a contract recently with Dan to begin advertising here. We are creating the banner as we speak and it should be up in the next week or so.

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Well then welcome aboard Mike.

Be aware though, nobody gets any slack here :sqerr:


Dan runs a fair place, and we all get hammered -- and we all work harder because of it


But, I still want to know why product A, is better than product B (like I said, no slack here).

Thanks Rick...just awaiting someone to tell me which model(s) they'd like pics of...

I'll leave that to Steve, Rox and Ben -- I just want another beer


Personally, I use tube amps -- Jolida, Mac's and such. But, I do on occasion recommend solid state stuff to my customers. I have to be convinced, before I can do that though.

So I ain't taking sides -- you guys fight it out, and I'll sit back, listen and learn...

DJ JohnThe1 said:

Sorry for the derailment but it seems like EV, Yorkville, RCF and FBT are the only speakers left on the market without all the Chinese B/S inside of it.

It made me happy to take apart a set of Yorkville NX 750's to find Made in Italy stamped on the back of the 15" drivers.

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And you'll find Made in USA stamped on the EVs. Good post John.

Ben

SoftJock Rick said:

BTW, just wanted to clarify something...

I am not involved in the pissing match above (I have a big one -- couldn't care less)


I want to know why brand A is being touted as better than brand B, and whether the price differential is worth it. I also want to know if the circuit boards are the same (or reasonable facsimiles), that are functionally equivalent.


Convince me why I should spend more money...

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Rick -

I'm glad to see this post. I will tell you that first, we carry 84 brands... we have our favorites, but they have won that place by their reliability, performance and business practices. It is rarely based on how much money we make on the product. In fact, as most are aware, the higher end products have SMALLER markup because they have a strong brand loyalty and they make a more expensive product but try to keep it price competitive.

That being said, since Mike Doucot from EV has chimed in here, and I have been to their world headquarters enough to practically have my own key (LOL) let me say THIS. If you go to their "showroom" you will find a LOT of other people's stuff, speakers, amps, etc. Something notable about the amps... ALL the chassis are open. What you are asking for is something that will make the engineers at EV do backflips. They PRIDE themselves on being different and the engineering that goes in their product. I have personally seen not only the "guts" of their amps next to QSC, Crown, etc, etc... but also the schematics.

To be blunt, for ANYONE to assert that all of these amps use the same board, same components, etc... is pure ignorance. I am normally pretty laid back... but that was such an utterly misinformed statement made with so much authority that it has struck me to the core. I PRIDE myself on ensuring to the highest level that any statement I make is factually accurate and given with the highest level of integrity. I have a hard time swallowing the opposite.

I think your challenge is the PERFECT solution for this, and I hope that when the results are in, people will hold those who have been misleading accountable. We spend a LOT of money and time on educational efforts to help people get past the marketing myths of our industry and I have little tolerance for anyone who would perpetuate the misunderstanding. As a highly technical person yourself, Rick, you and I can agree that most in this industry are less than "geeks" and that suits them just fine. However, this means they must rely on the faithful representation by those informed.

Your challenge will show decisively who is informed and who is not, and I will be posting pictures as quickly as I can get them. I welcome anyone else to participate. Please... let's get as many models involved here... open yours and post the pic!

Ben

Fred Wright said:

As I understand, Carvin's cabinets and drivers are made Stateside. Carvin loads Eminence and B&C drivers. I believe their plastic cabinets are outsourced to China, though.

In all honesty, the true values of any business equipment are suitability for purpose and longevity. I really don't care about the logo plate. I care about my equipment investment doing what I need it to do for years to come. If I have to pay more, so be it. Quality is of utmost importance in business equipment.

True, the Behringer brand has earned a less-than-flattering reputation. They've got no one but themselves to blame for it. Behringer's reputation of reverse engineering and outright copycat pieces is the stuff of legend. But if if it works for you, good deal.

One thing I've noticed on the various forums over the years, DJs tend to think in the first person when it comes to business equipment. In other words, "crap" is synonymous with "anything I don't own."

Ben, if you'd like to start a new thread here for gear dissection photos, feel free to do so. I've got the weekend off and may pull our DCM2500 out of the rack for some maintenance and photos. Just on general principal, of course.

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That's a good idea Fred. You'll get to the DCM2500 before I have a chance to get anything done this weekend (believe it or not, I'm going to actually put my family before this LOL) so please start the thread.

You'll note that I've never said a bad word about Carvin.

Ben

This copycat stuff goes on in every industry. Every auto company gets competitors cars and takes them apart, studies them and copies what they like or think is good.

The same thing happens in the electronics industry and the computer business. Intel and AMD reverse engineer and copy each others technology and engineering all the time. They sue each other constantly.

Foreign countries do the same thing. That's how they've been able to catch up to the US in many areas when they were rubbing two sticks together a few decades ago to make fire.

All of this is called industrial espionage. It's been going on for a long time and it will go on forever. Ever see a movie that seemed really similar to another recent movie that was very successful? Ever see an ad and you thought "wow, that's a great idea, I should use that in MY advertising!" Did QSC and Crown invent audio power amplifiers? If not, they "borrowed" some technology and maybe they refined it and came up with a better product.

For some reason we put QSC, Crown etc. on a pedestal. They charge high prices for their products so they must be really good, right?

Do you think that their engineering accounts for a difference in two to three times the price of their products compared to other manufacturers? People complain that Behringer simply copies QSC designs and then sells essentially the same amp for a fraction of the price USING THE SAME INTERNAL COMPONENTS. The same capacitors, the same transistors, the same resistors etc.

So why aren't some of you mad that QSC and Crown etc. are overcharging you when Behringer can make a profit selling the same amp for a third or half of the price QSC or Crown sells for?

Some folks think that because something costs more it must be better. Sometimes it is better and sometimes it's just better marketing.

Sometimes the difference between some of you really good less expensive DJs and your higher priced brethren is better marketing and salesmanship, nothing more. Same thing with some audio gear. Better marketing and salesmanship and management.

I don't think I would buy a Behringer mixer, but a Behringer amp? I bet you couldn't tell the difference between a Behringer EP4000 and a MUCH more expensive name brand amp putting out a comparable amount of power. I've found the Behringer on line for $350 so apparently it's already shipping. Look at the specs and then tell me how much a Crown or QSC amp putting out 1400wpc@4ohms would cost. I bet it's $1,000 or more. So who is ripping off who? Hmmmm . . .

I would be willing to bet that Crown and QSC take each others amps apart and study them along with Peavey, Dynacord and Crest and all the rest. I bet they copy each other all the time. If one of them comes up with a new idea or they use a new type of component that cuts weight or improves energy efficiency etc., within a year the others will do the same thing. They might have to do it slightly differently if there are new patents etc. but they figure out ways to copy each other.

Fred, don't you ever sleep?

I get what you're saying Fred and I agree, but I've read so many positive comments about Behringer amps being very reliable.

I've read lots of complaints about their mixers though. Seems to me that there is a lot more that can go wrong on a mixer than on an amp. I haven't had years and years of experience with power amplifiers, but if I can get an amp for a fraction of the price and it lasts just a few years then I'm way ahead.

I've also noticed that some good old fashioned ideas and ways of doing things may not always ring true anymore. In the good old days if something broke you fixed it or brought it to someone who could. Now it costs more to fix something than it costs to chuck it and just get another newer one that's more advanced and has more features.

If a Behringer amp was just a little less expensive than a Crown or a QSC etc. then we wouldn't be having this discussion at all, but the difference in price is significant and enough to make the Behringer look attractive to a lot of people. There is a reason why GM has Chevy and Cadillac. You can buy a Lincoln or a Ford. Sometimes it's just different trim and interior. I don't expect to be able to afford the same gear as touring bands or high end venues. Maybe some day . . .

It boils down to value. Some folks place a high value on buying only the best regardless of price. To them value is not dependent on price. To some people a component that can do a competent job that costs considerably less is of great value.

Michael Doucot said:

As I said before, there are plenty of folks here who can attest to the quality of the products I represent...don't take my word for it...ask them.

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Why Cant this be true for Behringer too? Is there a double standard just because of the brand name? The EP series of amps have been out for over 6 years now with very many happy customers who have been using them without fail. Some use them alongside QSC or Crown without fault. I use Crown and Behringer myself.

Back in 1988, Hyundai was just an upstart in the US. They copied and even rebadged Mitsubishi cars. There own design the Excel, came out of the box selling hot, started to have reliabity issues then was labeled crap. Fast forward today, their quality is comparable to the japanese, at least in the US have exceeded Mitsubishi sales,seems much better than SOME chevy /dodge/ford products. Emphasis on SOME. Small cars, I'll go with Hyundai. If they build a Full Size Truck, heck Chevy or Dodge.

Behringer has managed to create an RMX clone that works for half the price.
It works. Get over it. Thats why these arguments on boards drag on. Because a lot of peoeple feel that it is a worthwile peice of gear.
Now if they made a PLX or lightweight amp, I might have doubts. It takes more to engineer a lightweight amp that will not overheat on you.

Havent any of you noticed that when anyone says Behrineger mixer , everyone agrees, a few that have had good luck will say I disagree but the bad outweighs the good so everyone agrees that those that work just got a lucky draw. Good for them.

How many here run sound processing using behringer? EQ, X-Over, Soundcards, etc ? A lot. Not a lot of complaints in that department either.

So they copied the RMX. Big deal. Its no secret anyway.

Why is it OK to buy an LG, Vizio or some other no name Flat Screen manufacturer from costco, best buy, or sams club. If we followed the same logic using the Behringer principle, then all TVs sold will ONLY be sony or PANASONIC. How many have TVs other than SONY or PANSONIC.

Same with Cell Phones. Why arent we all only on Nokia, Motorola, Blackberry? These are all the Industry Standards. All these LG and Carrier OEMS are just knockoffs anyway.

There is that brand again. LG. Dont you notice how they make everything from Microwaves to Fridges to Cell phones, but people call them " A Good Value".

If you can afford the better brand name, good for you. Some of us have to run our business smarter. Does that mean buying crap gear either? No. Look at Pyle Pro Amps. Thats a cheap brand. No one is defending it. All agrees.
With Behringer amps, it has proven itself.

Look at every office. There are still a lot of Lowly HP6L printers being used.
Why arent they using those new fangled all in ones shhizznits that cost $500+

Because its not smart business.

Does the customer Care about the brand we use?
Before you answer that, just think of how many people called BS when the BOSE guys said that having BOSE made them more credible. Now these same guys that called BS, that are using QSC and Crown and whatever, are trying to imply that they are more credible over the Behringer guys. Its just a my stick is bigger than yours argument.

If its crap, its crap, no arguing there. But give credit where credit is due.

I never said it could not be true for Behringer, Crown, QSC, or anyone else for that matter. In fact, up until right now, I am pretty sure I've never even typed the word Behringer.

The problem I have with this whole thread is that it someone throws out an ignorant statement such as "The Dynacord is different though it is put together by different people in a different factory using the same componets and an identical board to the Behringer!", then hides behind "prove me wrong". Leaving it up to everyone else to do the work to prevent damaging the reputation of the brands they believe in.

It seems to me it would be equally unfair if someone said "All DJ's are the same...you are no different than the guy who charges $200 per event!". Now you both may have lights, use microphones, play music and introduce the bride & groom...is that where the comparison ends, or does it ultimately come down to how well you perform?

Michael- Im sorry if my post implied that you said that. I was just using your quote to point out that if customers using a product are happy, it should be the guage of how it is judged. Whatever the brand is.

He was referring to what Thunder said earlier, not anything you said eezee.