MP3 CDs

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Scott Hanna said:
Joe,

1) You've said before that people are getting inferior sound. I disagree.


2) However, If someone thinks that switching to computers is going to cause excess hardware problems, increase costs, and give you inferior sound, I have found none of these things to be true. I have found computers save me A LOT of time and have made my life much easier with regards to DJing.


3) I don't care how well you know your collection, when a customer wants a song that you've never played before, or have only played once in years, you are not going to instantly know if you have it or where it is.


4) Here's a question. How many dj's have made the switch from cd's to computers. a lot. How many dj's have made the switch from computers to cd's? anyone?....buehler? Why would all of these DJ's increase their costs and give themselves excess hardware problems...
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1) If you wish to disagree, you have that right- but it doesn't change the fact that when MP3s are electronically tested, they ARE seriously inferior not only to CDs, but even high quality TAPES. It also doesn't change the fact that there ARE plenty of people who who CAN hear the difference. Since they could be at any event or bar show, I can't take the chance.


2) Scott, I am glad that you haven't had to experience any problems, but per my previous post, all you have to do is read the threads related to PCs to find that THE MAJORITY of PC users DO experience all of the problems that I mentioned. That's how I found out!


3) Of course I can find obscure songs in seconds! Also per a previous post, my book ( using KJ Pro karaoke book software- REALLY helpful for DJing too!) Lists songs by Artist, Title, Disc, and Genre. With a disc and track # ( found in about 2 secs), I know EXACTLY where it is. Like I said, my collection is ORGANIZED, as any good CD DJ is.

I would also add that I have won speed loading contests against PC KJs


4) ....and ALSO as previously posted, we live in a world of trade offs. Hence, inferior quality cell phones in trade for more bells and whistles, trading the privacy of a cash transaction for insecure and junk mail producing ATM cards, virtually nutrition-free fast food for convenience over a healthy diet and strong immune system, living in isolated air conditioned environments over fresh air and good neighbors, etc..... They do it for the perception of convenience. However, as stated above, the reality of that convenience falls way short of the advertising. Some also do it for the gazillion tracks they can pirate without having to leave their chair. Some amateurs do it because they saw a DJ use it at an event, and figure "What the heck, even I can do that!", and then go out and ruin someone's event.

Once again: I have gone from tape to vinyl, vinyl to cassette, cassette to laser disc, laser disc to CD. When something that is actually BETTER comes along, I'll make another change. It just hasn't happened yet.

An added point. My laptop IS fully loaded with MP3s and DJ/Karaoke software. I use it for very small private ( read house) events. It works. However, I would NEVER use it in a public venue.

BTW: I am not knocking ANYONE'S PERSONAL CHOICE- I am only explaining MINE, and also why, in good faith, I just can't bring myself to recommend it to anyone.
 
Joe: I'll back you on that one....
 
Joe,

I totally agree with you that it is a personal choice. Each of us needs to decide what works best for us.

The inferior thing i don't think we'll ever agree on. I am not sure what tests you ran, what equipment was used, or how it was conducted. The test i ran was a high quality audio file, using a high quality sound card vs a high quality cd player and a store bought cd......no difference. If your test was with a computer with a soundcard that came with it. or a lower quality bit rate..i can see how you came up with that. Next test, try a 320 bit rate file and a denon hd2500 or a bose T1 as a sound card and check those results

there may be djs like yourself that can look up a song in a book(or on a computer), then go to their collection, find the cd it's on, put the cd in the player, go to the song number, cue up the song to the point you want faster than a computer. my test was limited. the test was with me. It was simply impossible for me to do all of those things in the few seconds it takes to to type in part of name and load a song(with the proper cue points already there)with my laptop.

In the several years i've been using computers. I've had 4 issues. 3 of those were in the first year. twice the software crashed....so i switched software...never happened again. Third was a hd failure. 4th was a bad mother board. So, one issue in the last 5+ years. Using cd's, many, many, challenges. Doors jamming, cds skipping, etc etc.
If i was felt customers really wanted dj's to use cd's, i'd quit the business. Thankfully, i've not gotten the slightest indication from ANY customer that they don't like the fact that i use a computer. I have received indications that they are happy i do use a computer.
 
3) Of course I can find obscure songs in seconds! Also per a previous post, my book ( using KJ Pro karaoke book software- REALLY helpful for DJing too!) Lists songs by Artist, Title, Disc, and Genre. With a disc and track # ( found in about 2 secs), I know EXACTLY where it is. Like I said, my collection is ORGANIZED, as any good CD DJ is.

I would also add that I have won speed loading contests against PC KJs
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Physically impossible Joe -- unless your contest involved a blind man operating the computer :sqrolleyes:

We are no longer using TRS-80s with cassette decks :sqwink:


As to the sound quality, we could argue that forever, but I expect in the words of Meatloaf "That ain't getting us nowhere...". I would just mention though, that most people's ears aren't o-scopes... :)


When something that is actually BETTER comes along, I'll make another change. It just hasn't happened yet.
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That is an subjective opinion -- not a fact. ;)
 
It's amazing in one respect that someone would take what was essentially an internet file format and change it to an audio standard. BUT in another it amazes me WHY we continually accept as good enough a step backward in technical quality.

A perfect example is our yet to be fully implemented DTV and HDTV. It's not going to be up to its full potential because it was insisted that we use computer standards of the 80s, instead of broadcast standards that would have allowed a much more detailed image than the current 1080p standard.
 
JoeChartreuse said:
1)

... They do it for the perception of convenience. However, as stated above, the reality of that convenience falls way short of the advertising. Some also do it for the gazillion tracks they can pirate without having to leave their chair. Some amateurs do it because they saw a DJ use it at an event, and figure "What the heck, even I can do that!", and then go out and ruin someone's event.

.
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Pirating songs was happening way before computers were used. Cassettes and CDR's have been a tool for pirates for years. Plenty of events have been ruined by bad DJ's with cd's. Plenty of cd based djs using burned cds with low quality. A computer is not must for a bad event. A bad or unprepared DJ and/or bad equipment comes in all forms.
Maybe you are reading different posts than I am, but i just don't see dj's complaining that computers are not convenient. I don't see people going back to cds

I do see people that DONT use computers to DJ on a regular basis telling others how BAD it is.
 
Folks I apologize for going off topic but I wanted to address the issues of CDs. There are (or were) many brands and models of so-called pro quality CD players on the market that are just plain junk. I know ~ we owned a pair of Gemini top loader decks. Before that, we worked with Radio Shack decks.

Sure, they'll skip. Sure, you'll have sticking trays, broken trays, decks that just won't read some discs etc. But they're cheap and that's the target market for many people in this business. If yas break down and invest in pro quality business equipment you won't have these issues. As an aside, most DJ gear catalogs don't even list the top end equipment because it doesn't sell like the cheap stuff.

To be sure, PCs have their issues but much of that correlates to CD decks ~ you'll never get more than you pay for. If you want professional quality that will withstand the rigors of road duty you'll have to pay more for it. This applies to CD decks and PC rigs. I wouldn't expect a Gemini CD deck to perform like a Pio pro machine. I wouldn't expect an off-the-shelf Dell to perform like a custom-built PC either.

Thoughts?
 
Fred:

I only wish things were as "cause and effect" as that. If they were, you could easily make the right decisions for yourself and your business. While I believe in "you get what you pay for", I also believe what I've seen, several times in recent memory.

A company builds its' product or entire brand, from the ground up - it's well made, durable, and a good value. Flash forward a couple years, and once the name is "made", the quality goes down, either because the company sold to another company (but kept the name), or the original company simply got "greedy". Aren't there threads around here about speakers brands that USED to be good (before the manufacturing went to China)? How many times has the "best" brand of external hard drive changed?

If you can find a product "on the way up", you're fortunate.
 
Thanks, Steve.

While I understand that brand names don't necessarily equate with touring grade quality, I still believe you never get more than you pay for.

I'll offer an example: Artie isn't a member here but most of us in the Annoying Club have known Artie for years. He comes to stay with us on occasion to visit.

Artie is a club jock at the Dance Ranch & Saloon. He's also PC based. Artie brought his PC rig down when he stayed with us sometime back. I was amazed... this isn't an off-the-shelf Dell. It's a custom-built machine with two external HDDs, the battery backup module and cooling, all built into a road case.

Artie has over three grand vested in this rig. It's all top of the line quality components. He has never had an issue with it, ever. :)
 
While we're on the subject of mp3's, most of us have a database that will tell us a particular song is on H cd, song #54.
I never could get use to having a cd just with a number or letter that corresponds to my database. With a cd that contains 20 or 25 songs, printing out an insert listing the songs is not a problem, but when you have over 100 on a disc, that demands that you be somewhat more creative. The only way that I can think of is print the song listing for that cd on several pieces of card stock both front and back. Anyone have an easier way?
 
Brian Martin said:
While we're on the subject of mp3's, most of us have a database that will tell us a particular song is on H cd, song #54.
I never could get use to having a cd just with a number or letter that corresponds to my database. With a cd that contains 20 or 25 songs, printing out an insert listing the songs is not a problem, but when you have over 100 on a disc, that demands that you be somewhat more creative. The only way that I can think of is print the song listing for that cd on several pieces of card stock both front and back. Anyone have an easier way?
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1) Yes. Since I am primarily a karaoke host, I also use my KJ Pro karaoke songbook generator to create a DJ songbook as well. Whether created by artist, title, genre, or disc number, each line contains all of the above, plus disc and track number.

For even faster lookup (Rick) I have my book tabbed by section ( Artist,title, disc#) AND alphabetically. I will always open the book to within a page or two of the specific song, finding it in SECONDS.

Scott, we can agree that both mediums have problems, I personally just find less with discs.

As for testing, it's an oscilliscope on data output points. Sound output is not important if the data is corrupted. Please also keep in mind that most uploads and downloads are done by amateurs on all different sorts of equipment, through different sorts of transmission medium. There is just simply no quality control. This is one reason some mfrs. stopped releasing them. I DJ PC has a crappy load of an MP3 by a well known mfr., how will the mfr.'s reputation fare?

Again, it is a matter of personal choice. If I'm going to spend time, money, and energy on a change-over, I personally wish to wait for a proven superior product.
 
DJ Ducky said:
Of course, I could always just stick with bringing normal CDs and just bring a heck of a lot more of them with me.
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Course, you could just try using a computer instead of CDs a few times. I bet after you got used to it, you would wonder why you didn't switch ages ago... ;)


I hear that all day long from customers -- they are amazed at how easy it is, how much less they have to carry, and how quickly they can cue up a song :)
 
I can look up a request and load it into a player while the person is still asking me for it.

Dave

ps. Computer based I are!
 
About four years ago, I was right where you are today. I bought a Denon 6000 dual CD player and started making mp3 CDs with about 100 songs on each disc.

I got about 20 discs made and had barely made a dent on my music collection. I scrapped the idea of mp3 CDs and instead took my laptop with me to a gig, running it alongside my CDs. Every so often, I'd play a song from the laptop instead of off a CD. And by doing more frequently at each event, I was able to ween myself off of the CDs.

I haven't brought a CD with me to an event in the past two years, and I don't ever have second thoughts about that. MP3 CDs were a nice idea at the time, but there's just too much work and time needed to burn, test and keep track of what songs are on what CDs.
 
SoftJock Rick said:
Course, you could just try using a computer instead of CDs a few times. I bet after you got used to it, you would wonder why you didn't switch ages ago... ;)


:)
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No disagreement on ease of use, Rick. Like I said, I've done both. Nothing hard about a PC. It's all the other issues that are problematcal.


One other thing about CDs: Like most, I have plenty of them pulled and ready in advance, plus one loaded in the second drawer. Speed between the two media really isn't an issue....:sqwink:
 
Here's another equation to throw in the mix...

Lose or damage a music CD, lose 20 songs at most...

Lose or damage an mp3 CD, lose 100 songs at least...

I've been a CPS DJ since 2003...I'd never go back.
 
Hey guys, perhaps I can offer a few things as a computer technician and lighting designer to this. Perhaps not. I didn't read the entire thread. But here goes.

1. 99% of computer problems are user error. I have run 1000 cue concerts off of lighting software on a PC and never had a problem. I did set ups all the time with lighting software on PC's. Many of my clients also use video and presentation software on PC's. The key is to use only trusted software that has been proven over time and never install anything on said PC other than the software you are going to use. Any time you make a change on the computer run a hard drive diagnostic to keep everything cleaned up. These days computer prejudice is exactly that. It comes from bad experiences (that are usually the users fault) or just general hatred.

2. As far as quality. As an LD I would make changes in in a lighting cue, often adjusting a level by 2 or 3 percent. I could see the difference, even though it was very subtle. I would also make 5 minute or 10 minute long light cues that were very subtle that no one would notice except me. I would ask people after the show about particular cues and they would say "what cue?". The point is, to me, a good quality MP3 on a good quality computer sounds the same as a CD. I would be willing to bet if you took 99% of people at any event and play the same song for them in MP3 and on a CD they would not be able to tell the difference. However as professionals, you guys can.

3. Always back up. Period. End of story. Losing or scratching a CD or even a HDD crash should never mean losing songs.

4. Oftentimes we allow perception to creep into our opinions. Not to say that is the case here, but perhaps some people see the skills they have a DJ (finding and cuing a song, operating the equipment) threatened by computers. The same thing happened 30 years ago in the lighting industry. The move from piano to computer boards meant that light board operators were no longer skilled labor. They were now just button monkeys. Nevermind that it takes a whole different set of skills to operate a computer board and these guys are still very skilled individuals, that was their perception. Perhaps here if you move everything to computer DJs see themselves as becoming "guys with iPODs" instead of DJs.

Just some thoughts.

Mike
 
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