Looking for a Y cable

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NLFX Pro said:
Bill -

We can whip one of those up for you (with either Neutrik or cheapo RA XLR) in no time flat. :)

Ben
Click to expand...

Ben,

Is this a bad idea to use a Y adapter out of the mixer's zone output to either run to a powered speaker, or use for recording? (videographer, etc.)

Thanks,

Bill
 
Bill Kexel said:
Ben,

Is this a bad idea to use a Y adapter out of the mixer's zone output to either run to a powered speaker, or use for recording? (videographer, etc.)

Thanks,

Bill
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. It comes down to an impedance ratio. I call it the 10:1 rule. In commercial installations it's not uncommon for a single output to drive multiple amp input channels. What you're doing is exactly the same as a parallel input/output on an amp or a powered speaker.

I have to make some assumptions here since I don't know exactly what you're using (although since I sold you much of it I think I'm going to take some liberties with these numbers). Let's assume your mixer's output impedance is 100 Ohms and the powered speaker's input impedance is 10,000 Ohms. That's a ratio of 100:1, so in theory we could connect 10 of those speakers to that drive in parallel. I might be oversimplifying it a bit here, and I'm sure some of my fellow nerds will jump in to try to complicate it, but that's the basics of it.

Where it gets a bit messier is when you talk about driving both a powered speaker and a recording device, which may have different input impedances and also different grounding structures. A transformer based splitting device would be a preferred way to avoid any problems here. Many times in FOH snakes when we split an input signal between a FOH console and a monitor desk we will use Ground Lifts (GLs) and Isolation Transformers (ISOs) to ensure that we don't invite problems into our mix (pun intended).

That help?

Ben
 
NLFX Pro said:
Not necessarily. It comes down to an impedance ratio. I call it the 10:1 rule. In commercial installations it's not uncommon for a single output to drive multiple amp input channels. What you're doing is exactly the same as a parallel input/output on an amp or a powered speaker.

I have to make some assumptions here since I don't know exactly what you're using (although since I sold you much of it I think I'm going to take some liberties with these numbers). Let's assume your mixer's output impedance is 100 Ohms and the powered speaker's input impedance is 10,000 Ohms. That's a ratio of 100:1, so in theory we could connect 10 of those speakers to that drive in parallel. I might be oversimplifying it a bit here, and I'm sure some of my fellow nerds will jump in to try to complicate it, but that's the basics of it.

Where it gets a bit messier is when you talk about driving both a powered speaker and a recording device, which may have different input impedances and also different grounding structures. A transformer based splitting device would be a preferred way to avoid any problems here. Many times in FOH snakes when we split an input signal between a FOH console and a monitor desk we will use Ground Lifts (GLs) and Isolation Transformers (ISOs) to ensure that we don't invite problems into our mix (pun intended).

That help?

Ben
Click to expand...

Ben, he isn't referring to splitting an output signal with the "Y" connector. He is using the "Y" connector backwards to incorrectly sum two outputs into one. This requires a "Special" Y connector with resistors etc wired in.
 
Ben,

I would be plugging in the 2 female XLRs of the Y into the L & R channels of the zone output on the back of the mixer. The single male end of Y (male XLR) would be connected to a powered speaker XLR input (in another room)
OR
I could plug it into a recording device. (not at the same time)

My reasoning....many old older songs have vocals in one channel or instruments in one channel or the other. by just plugging into a left or right channel & running it to the powered speaker, it would be missing vocals or instruments (the stereo) The mixer does NOT have a mono switch on the zone output.

If it's not a good thing to do, I would gladly accept any suggestions.

Question:.......if Y adapters are bad, why do so many DJ use them?
 
Bill Kexel said:
Ben,

I would be plugging in the 2 female XLRs of the Y into the L & R channels of the zone output on the back of the mixer. The single male end of Y (male XLR) would be connected to a powered speaker XLR input (in another room)
OR
I could plug it into a recording device. (not at the same time)

My reasoning....many old older songs have vocals in one channel or instruments in one channel or the other. by just plugging into a left or right channel & running it to the powered speaker, it would be missing vocals or instruments (the stereo) The mixer does NOT have a mono switch on the zone output.

If it's not a good thing to do, I would gladly accept any suggestions.

Question:.......if Y adapters are bad, why do so many DJ use them?
Click to expand...

Well.. it's two questions really.

To answer the first question, I've seen it done... but that really leads to the second question. To correctly answer the first question, you really shouldn't do it. I would go on to explain it for you, but it's already been done very well by my friends at Rane. Check it out:

http://www.rane.com/note109.html

If you need a summing cable like that, we can build you one very easily. We can put the resistors right in the XLR shells or we can build a little project box for you so it doesn't look like a wye (or "why?" as I call them LOL) cable.

The second question really made me chuckle.... "why do so many DJ use them?". I have often wondered why so many DJs do many things. LOL. I think the best answer is lack of education. That's one reason we established the ProAcademy educational sessions. We want to help explain some of the great technological mysteries out there.

Ben
 
Bill Kexel said:
Why not mono? it would sound better.
Click to expand...
LAUGHABLE!

Running in mono does NOT necessarily sound better. For most mobile work, stereo sounds infinity better, that is why the source material is mastered in STEREO.

Is it common to see dj systems configured in mono? Yes.

Is it harmful? No.

Is it better? F NO!
 
Bill Kexel said:
Pioneer DJM-5000, digital MP3s
Why not mono? it would sound better.

Thanks Ben...I'll get a couple made up.
Click to expand...

No, you misunderstood. I say yes to mono. I now see what you're up against.
You have your main speakers going out in mono and need the zone for another room/recorder. That kinda sucks that such a loaded mixer has no mono option for the zone out. Sorry.

Maybe just run your second sound card out in mono or use an RCA y-connector instead of the XLR?

djm5000_rear_large.jpg
 
When I run my audio to my main speakers (dancing, etc.) I typically run it in stereo. But running audio to 1 individual speaker in another room, mono is better (that way, nothing is lost)

For those of you that do this & use only one channel, which channel is preferred?...the left or the right channel? Am I the only one that does this????
 
When I have to do what you now clearly describe, I run a mono signal using the L channel.
 
Bill.
I would talk with Ben and have him build you a balanced summing box to XLR (Figures 3 and 4 in the RANE link). He knows what he's doing and you'll be happy with the results instead of spending ton of money in little stuff that won't work properly.
 
Bill Kexel said:
Question:.......if Y adapters are bad, why do so many DJ use them?
Click to expand...

Laziness?
Expediency?
Lack of fundamental knowledge?

There are hundreds of "reasons" why, and none are good.
 
Bill Kexel said:
When I run my audio to my main speakers (dancing, etc.) I typically run it in stereo. But running audio to 1 individual speaker in another room, mono is better (that way, nothing is lost)

For those of you that do this & use only one channel, which channel is preferred?...the left or the right channel? Am I the only one that does this????
Click to expand...

Okay then, if you are using your master out in stereo, why not just use the zone out for the dance floor and use the master in mono for the single speaker?

:triconfused:
 
Bill Kexel] Question:.......if Y adapters are bad said:
Laziness?
Expediency?
Lack of fundamental knowledge?

There are hundreds of "reasons" why, and none are good.
Click to expand...
You forgot:
1) Because the sales guy at Radio Shack, you know the one with the Subway Special Sauce on his clip on tie, said it would be OK.

2) My friend that spins and his step-1/2-Uncle-Brother's biker bar does it and it hasn't caused too many issues.

3) I would eat up all my imaginary, unreal profits if I started doing things properly that cost more than next-to-nothing.

Hank Davidson said:
Okay then, if you are using your master out in stereo, why not just use the zone out for the dance floor and use the master in mono for the single speaker?

:triconfused:
Click to expand...
Or run the master in mono, then you would have 4 zones!
 
djrox said:
LAUGHABLE!

Running in mono does NOT necessarily sound better. For most mobile work, stereo sounds infinity better, that is why the source material is mastered in STEREO.

Is it common to see dj systems configured in mono? Yes.

Is it harmful? No.

Is it better? F NO!
Click to expand...

Tell them again Rox and speak LOUDER! I don't think some of them heard you. :trirolleyes:
In one's living room Stereo from a small home system = great stereophonic sound. At a large venue, it is the same result except the stereo and space are both larger.
 
I have a single powered speaker on my Dance floor as Monitor. However it is connected to the "Aux Out" on my Mackie which gives me a Mono signal.
Maybe what you should get is a small Line Mixer which can give you multiple uses and also have an Aux/Send. Ben sells those too.
 
Bill Kexel said:
When I run my audio to my main speakers (dancing, etc.) I typically run it in stereo. But running audio to 1 individual speaker in another room, mono is better (that way, nothing is lost)

For those of you that do this & use only one channel, which channel is preferred?...the left or the right channel? Am I the only one that does this????
Click to expand...

If you use only one channel you will loose some of the music (The Music in the other channel) unless the whole source is Mono to begin with.
Are you not charging enough to warrant using two speakers in the Zone Room?:triwink: BTW you had the answer to your original question in Post #2. repeated in Post #27

Bill,
Looking at the back of your Mixer I believe that the Left Send is a Mono out. Try it and see. To test, play a song and while it is playing manually disconnect one of the input channel cables and listen if sound still comes out. Then reconnect that channel cable and take out the other one, if the music still comes out then it is mono.
 
Hank Davidson said:
Maybe just run your second sound card out in mono or use an RCA y-connector instead of the XLR?
Click to expand...

My friend, ANY plain "Y" connector (XLR, RCA, 1/4" or whatever) connected backwards is just simply crazy electronics. Try doing that to an amp and see where it will get you.:trirolleyes:
 
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