Limewire...

AHHHHH, I LOVE DJs!

Those that know me, know I am a straight forward for better or worse kind of guy.... Pasisonate about what I know, skeptical about what I dont.

I've been a DJ (Off and on) since spring of 1987. If there's anything in this world I am certain that I KNOW...... Hip Hop and music Downloading.(A.K.A. File Sharing) would be IT.

Does anyone remember the birth of music on the internet? Yeah, I was there for that. Back in 1998, there weren't any known musicians/artists doing the internet music thing. If you were finding music over the internet, it was mostly local bands and unknowns grapsing for any recognition they could get. Alanis Morissette changed all that. Others followed.

In the early summer of 1998, my brother and I set off on the business venture of owning our own DJ company. That was before our business became one. Music costs for CDs was astounding. Buying entire CDs for 1 or two songs was B.S. And the vinyl was becoming scarce as a relaible source. Late fall or early winter of 1999, my brother tells me that he was told about a website on the internet that you could "download" all these songs for free. I blew him off and told him it was crap, it couldnt be real. I had looked into finding music over the internet and no one was putting popular or even well known music on the web. He was trying to convince me I was wrong. Our cousin from Bloomington, Indiana (just off Indiana University campus) told him about this thing called NAPSTER. And said we HAD to check it out.

By the end of 1999, There were just a couple hundred people sharing music through Napster. It was still very, very small when we started. Keeping in mind that we were downloading 10's of 20s of songs through 56k and 33.3k modems through dial up services, running the computers all night long - tying up phone lines.

We got to the point we could weed through all the crap in seconds and find just the right ones to get. Good bit rates, strong internet connections......next thing you knew we had THOUSANDS of songs. Stuff you couldnt find anymore and stuff that was just coming out before it hit the radio. Even DJ mashups and remixes from bedroom DJs that weren't in the spotlight of the music scene.

By the summer of 2000, and sometime after Napster made the cover of Newsweek magasine, my downloading network of friends and us were in the middle of a rebellous movement against the recording industry. It was more than just stealing music, it was a fight over greed vs principals. lol.

Everytime the R.I.A.A. announced or a news report leaked they were going to be surfing the P2P servers and busting people, we were always 2-3 steps ahead of them. Using Napster, WinMX, Morpheus, Shareaza, Kaza and Bearshare....... There was no way to stop us, we even used IP masking techniques and programs. Changing out internet service providers or using multiple accounts, using web gateways and routers.....we were hell bent for music.

Sometime after I started hanging out with other DJs over the internet on message boards and forums, the HEATED debate about this topic was thick, and Draxx and I were toe to toe about it. In fact, using some of the same points of conversation that have already been mentioned in this thread by others.

In 2004 I made the decision to go legitimate. Believing that file sharing music DOES deny the Industry their costs/profits for the music production (right or wrong, it is stealing when you dont pay for it. Period.) I debated with myself for weeks about needing to delete and wipe my drives of music that had grown to exceed many thousands of songs from rare 50's & 60's to the newest releases just leaked out of the studios to the internet. But I did...... sort of. I had announced that I had turned my ways and gave up file sharing...... in public. Only what I had really done was simply get rid of all my radio edits. The DJ mixes and music that you simply just cant buy in stores was proving too valuable to get rid of. I just couldn't do it.

But when the news came out that a mobile DJ can be fined thousands of dollars per song, per instance on their HDs....... AND jail time included...... That was enough for me.

Since those days, I am STAUNCHLY against using any illegal means to aquire music. Now, I have to say that I have been greatly surprised by the confessions in this thread, but I also do know of many local and well known DJs that confess they are strongly against P2P file sharing of music, but privately participate in downloading illegally as well as mass reproduction of music for multi-op systems. You think the New England Patriots are the only high profile people who will stop at nothing to maintain a competitive edge??? please.

If I dont have a song a client wants/needs and I can't get it. Then I DONT HAVE IT. They can get it and bring it to me legally or we will improvise with another song. I only do PRE-planned events. So the scenerios used earlier in this thread won't apply to me. No excuses. I do not support any DJ using P2P means for any reason. Wrong is wrong.

I'm not shy about telling people where I came from, I've been street for so long I have yellow paint on my back from doing the windmill. But today is a different day and I am a better DJ for it.

Chris, that post was awesome.

I'm not sure there is anything anyone could say to add to that. Well put man. That took some real soul searching to write.

By what means do you say hypocritical?

I stated my past, put it out there for everyone and self-confessed it was wrong and against the law. I openely proved that I knew well the topic. I didnt glorify it. I didnt come on here and say, "Yeah, been doin it for years and love it."

I wrote all that to say that I used to download illegally and finally wised up about it. There are people here openly confessing of still doing it today. What's THAT about??? I dont judge people, because I am not a model worth following. I suggested my view and that was that.

Sorry you didn't appreciate the post Jeff. I'll stay out of it next time around.

We're all entitled to our opinions, please try to stay civil about this subject

I'm with you Chris. I liked your history. I didn't feel at all that it was hypocritical. If you were hypocritical, you'd still be downloading free stuff and NOT telling us. Hypocrites hide.

Chris,

I enjoyed you post and certainly can understand the position you took, however, no one will ever be able to tell me that downloading hurts the music industry. Let me explain.

1. Record companies will make always make money, no matter how many discs are sold, and the reason is because, they sell their product in bulk to the distributors. When Wal-Mart or FYE buys something from the labels, each individual store is not purchasing those discs, but the company as a whole is, and as such, the labels are already paid, no matter how many of those CD's are sold. So for example, let's say the label ships out 1 million copies of the new Band X cd to Wal Mart for distribution. Wal-Mart buys there and are stuck with them in their warehouse not matter what. A little known dirty secret of the recording business is that ones the labels sells the product to the distributor, the distributor CAN NOT return it back the label if is not sold. So if Band X's cd only sells 10 copies, Wal-Mart is stuck with the other 999,990 copies, and the label already has its money from them.

2. Insane rescrictions on what distributors can sell. I will use FYE as an example. Every store is require to have the exact same displays and up front promos, and all of these are stipulated by the label in the distribution agreement. This means that is Band X is a huge seller in LA, but a bomb in DC, LA can not promote it more. Both LA and DC are required to have the disc in the same place in the store. This insures that only the acts the labels want to push will actually get pushed. And normally, it is the acts which the labels have already undersold their product to the distributors. So if FYE buys 1 million copies of band Y's discs, but only 500,000 copies of band X's discs, the label will force FYE to push band X's discs in all its stores, because it already has its money from band Y's. Also, no major distribution outlet for the labels (ie, chain stores, Box stores, etc) are allowed to carry non-labeled products (local indie acts). If a popular local band, say in Philly (ok, I want drop their name yet again,lol), wants to sell their music through a chain store, they must get special waivers from the corporate office of that store, and that corporate office gets it permission from, you guessed it, the 5 major label distributors. You can only guess how often that happens.

3. Production and Distribution costs. Have you ever asked yourself why a CD still costs 16.99 when it costs that 20 years ago byt the price of production have dropped to next to nothing? It's because, through the chain/box stores (which is where close to 80% of discs outside the net are purchased), all pricing is mandated by the labels. There is no price variation, even in sales. So if you walk into a FYE in Denver, that Vanilla Ice disc is going to cost you the same as it would if you want to the store in NYC. This price control has enable the labels to create a virtual standstill with consumers because it completely limits your choice for price shopping.

Because of all of these factors (plus others I will not go into here), the labels have no right to cry poverty. Yes, less of their product is being sold, but they are actually making a HIGHER profit margin off less product.

Downloading has ZERO affect on the labels.

No Jeff, let me reposition myself alittle here for clarity.

I did not mean any indignation or disrespect. I wasnt intending any angry tones or subtle sourcasms. I want to make sure that you and everyone else reading understands that I was not angry or upset, I didnt react harshly.

To clarify, for the sake of discussion, the section of my post which you point out was all for private, individual use only. I had never used any bedroom DJs mixes for any client. My statement about those DJ mixes and music you cant buy online or in stores was solely for personal listening. If DJ whatever made his own mix of a song that I liked, but you cant find DJ whatever's music anywhere because he's just some club/mobile DJ out there somewhere, it was difficult at first for me to part with it knowing that I could not find that song again. Clients dont care for amature DJ mashups and mixes, it would not have been in anyones best interest to use that material for a job. Radio edits were one thing to download, clean up and use. DJ whatever's remix of "Baby got back" blended with Queens "Another one bites the dust" wouldn't do. It was the individual, personal listening thing that made it hard to get rid of. Which "technically" wouldn't have violated any copyright laws from the viewpoint that it was "promotional" in use to display that DJ whatevers mixing abilities and creativity.

I'm not debating with you Jeff because I dont feel we disagree, we barely know of each other, so theres no animosity there. I just didnt see where the hypocisy you referenced was coming from. To say that I did download in the past, but stand against it today - - - well, maybe I agree there. But that's more of a change in position about the issue, not to insinuate that its ok for me to do it and not someone else.

To add to my first post if I may, Our business performance is down more than 400% in the last 2 years. But I still pay for the music. Its a financial burden, especially when the music isn't paying for itself, but we still pay for it.

My mother raised me to believe that no one gets something for nothing. No matter what it is in life, it costs something of someone. If you get or take something that was not yours without paying for it, no matter what circumstances or situation or condition, its stealing.

Chris

Patrick - I can not argue with your post. Im not qualified to rebuttle anything you said. I can identify with you on the basis that it was that thinking that lead to the "rebellous" movement we were all in when the R.I.A.A. threatened to close Napster down. How much greed do you really need?

I cant speak for more than I know. I know that the music industry is wealthy and its profits are not evenly distributed. Otherwise how does it make any sense that Sony can participate in going after illegal file sharing and music piracy, and yet also produces the very equipment used to make those things possible?

What I do know is that right or wrong, in the late 1990's there were no defined laws set against the practice of file sharing music. Even politicians were doing it, just about everyone was either trying it or knew someone that was. But today, in 2007, it is against the law and the penalties outweigh the risks for me to be able to afford to continue thinking that I'm somehow "sticking it" to the man.

By the way, thank you everyone for allowing me to share this conversation with you. We all know there are other message boards for DJs out there whom are not so welcome-like to differing opinions and views.

Chris

Oh Chris, trust me, I am in no way say "file share away because it is ok."

I know full well it is a form of stealing and is technically, by the law wrong.

But, I have to ask myself which is more wrong. Me downloading a song I really like, or the record companies charge close to $20 for a CD which contains that one decent song and 11 or 12 others of just filler?

Ahhh Patrick, we could be friends if we were closer, you and I....lol

The temptation is there, its always there. In fact, as resourceful as the process was for us back in the day to do, with all the advances in technology we have today; I'm certain within a weekend I could double my music library or more.

I had to relalize for myself that it couldnt continue. Because trying to maintain a legitimate business image as a Mobile DJ while using illegal music would be too much to hide, cover up and excuse. I couldnt handle the thought of being that DJ on the 6 o'clock news report that was busted for file sharing and holding an astounding library of illegal .mp3s

I love Limewire and get all my music from them, I mean really, why buy it if you can get it for free? Geezee

I will shop on Itunes, Napster, Yahoo Music, Borders, and Amazon. If after all that I can't find it, since I do not have any P2P installed on my computer, I will ask my daughter for it.
Yes, she does use P2P and once in a blue moon I end up using a file she sends me.

I'll just take a seat over here on the bottom feeder's bench now.

I have also always maintained the position that some DJ's will get on their pedesatal of righteousness regarding file sharing and using copyrighted material, and ten if you ask them if they have ever caught a little pot buzz, not reported all of their tips and income or maybe participated in a sports betting pool, then they are not so innocent.
Glass houses ya know.

Chris...

Very good posts. Remember that many folks here, are doing exactly what you are protesting against. That's a sure way to get into an argument. While I respect and admire you for your stance, I really can see both side of the issue. I don't have a stance that would satisfy anyone here. The subject of your thread was prerequisite for a battle.

I like to drive over the speed limit, but I'm not going to tell folks about the pitfalls of speeding. If I was to come and advocate total lawful driving practices, I'd have to be prepared for arguments from those who speed.

Again, you gave very thoughtful and logical arguments for legality, but, you should also be prepared for others to pipe in with different views. Not necessarily a bad thing... just know that others will disagree.

I'd like to compliment everyone for remaining civil... keep it going!

not reported all of their tips

Click to expand...

Shouldn't that word be "any"

I'm not a waitress, I don't work for tips. If someone wants to hand me money for being cute and charming, it's not income, and the IRS has no "right" to know


I shall be honest -- I've used some of the file sharing places. Usually it's been to pre-listen to a song, to see if it's worth buying. If it's worth buying, I buy it.

I haven't done so in a few years now, but I also don't care whether others do or not. Not really my business to make a judgement call as to whether it's right or wrong.


I do see John's point about the self-righteous though. When I used to have the ripping software/service a few years back, I would get hammered all over the place by them, and yet, many would purchase the service... :sqerr:

Good thing I'm good at keeping my mouth shut, and removing my customer lists


Anyway, support the artists (at least the ones that work hard to give us good music).