Limewire...

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... One other thing. Why was napster closed down by the courts while limewire and kaazza were allow to continue?
If memory serves (that's a big if, lol), Napster was maintaining a database that held ripped music. By permitting the general public to access it at no charge (no licencing), they were found to be in violation of copyright law.

Again, I may be wrong about this... but aren't Limewire et al true P2P sites? Ie, to DL a file from these sites, it is transferred from one machine to another, not from a storage database? :dontknow:
 
Rob, I understand and respect your position. I just hope you can see my POV as well.

Here's another scenario:

You have JonesTM (they deliver music pretty darn early) but you need a song for a wedding last minute. You know the song will be in next week's CD-- but you need the song then and there (last minute request). You have WiFi.

Do you do it?


***

Also, given the same scenario. I've had times that it's happened to me, and I already own the music, I just didn't load it on my PC. At that point, it is legal to download P2P if you already own the song. My previous scenario is what YOU would do beforehand.
 
Rob - I'm not inferring anything.....while you and I may think you're legal....many, including authorities do not. if you read various cd's it speaks of unauthorized duplication, public, commercial performance and so on.....

I believe Drax has made the statement that if one truly interprets the written law, all dj's are in a sense acting illegally.....

going 5 mph above the speed limit is still speeding.....

That being said, we can only do what we can do.....or can we?

Just fodder for discussion
 
As I understand it, the use of retail CDs in the US by a DJ company is within the realm of copyright law. Tony Valentine got with the folks at the RIAA some years ago to clear this FAQ up. :)

The MP3 and PC DJing aspect is covered under the archive part as long as the original discs are kept by the company. If I ain't mistaken, the making of CD comps for use by the DJ is also covered under archive. Again, we've got to keep the original discs for archival purposes.

Essentially, as long we own the originals we're OK.

The public performance aspect covers venues where the DJ or band sponsor an event that is open to the public. Charging at the door makes it public. If the DJ or band has been booked by someone else ~ venue owner, promoter etc the venue owner is responsible for music reproduction licencing.

Private events like weddings, birthday parties and the like are not considered to be public.
 
Technically, yer all goin' to jail! :sqeek:

The licensing/copyrights on music bought at/through a retailer, are for YOUR personal use only. You may not play them for anyone else, if you want to get to the nitty gritty dirt of the law.

Even using DJ subscription services, is grey area for mobile DJs, unless you can PROVE promotional aspects.


Do not pass go, do NOT collect $200 ;)


Having said that, what do you folks want to hear tonight :sqlaugh: :sqwink:
 
A lot of the problem is that no one really knows what is legal and what is not.

Technically in Canada it's not illegal to use P2P there is no law against it it's still grey but who would want to have a full library of music and later find out it can't be used

Personally I would own most of the music I buy even if I wasn't in the business because it would be my hobby. Simply put I love music

But there is alot of music I wouldn't have discovered if it wasnt for P2P the music industry has made money from me because of file sharing
 
If you want to get technical, all Mobile DJs, based on the letter of the law, are required to use music only purchased through a proper distribution company (ie, ERG, Prime Cuts, etc).

So unless the bride and groom is handing you a copy of that song from a PC disc you don't have, you are breaking the law.

Also, for everyone out there saying that they will just let the B&G supply it if they don't have it, what if the day of the event they hand you a burned CD? That is illegal for you to play because you do not have the original copy. Or what if they say they only have it on their Ipod?

Many of us think we are "completely legal" in our music collections when in truth, you are only "legal" based on how you choose to define it and not on the actual letter of the law.
 
Rob, I understand and respect your position. I just hope you can see my POV as well.

Here's another scenario:

You have JonesTM (they deliver music pretty darn early) but you need a song for a wedding last minute. You know the song will be in next week's CD-- but you need the song then and there (last minute request). You have WiFi.

Do you do it?


***

Also, given the same scenario. I've had times that it's happened to me, and I already own the music, I just didn't load it on my PC. At that point, it is legal to download P2P if you already own the song. My previous scenario is what YOU would do beforehand.

Let me see if I understand the scenerio:

We are assuming that a new song is taking the radio waves by storm and you have a client that is desparate for that song to be played at their event. Yet this song has not been released to the general public nor to the DJ comunity at large. Right?

If that is your scenerio there is a major flaw... who is going to have it and will have made it available via a p2p?

I know I'm argueing symantics but that is a major problem see only radio has the track and unless someone has somehow copied the song from the radio how in the heck is it going to be available on a p2p?

In your second scenerio we are assuming A) you already own a copy but forgot it or B) you are planning to buy it anyway.

A) Well oops for your unpreparedness...:sqfrown:

B) Just go buy it there are plenty of 24 hour stores that would in all likelihood carry this particular CD if it's been on the market to the general public.

So my answer to both would be no... and if they are just asking for this music at the event and I can't get it via iTunes or the such assuming I have an internet connection... sorry but you should have asked for the song before the event... :sqfrown:

Trust me I understand your POV but for me that's a trap I just can't allow my self and my reputation to fall into.
 
Rob - I'm not inferring anything.....while you and I may think you're legal....many, including authorities do not. if you read various cd's it speaks of unauthorized duplication, public, commercial performance and so on.....

I believe Drax has made the statement that if one truly interprets the written law, all dj's are in a sense acting illegally.....

going 5 mph above the speed limit is still speeding.....

That being said, we can only do what we can do.....or can we?

Just fodder for discussion

I figured that was where you were going with that but needed the clarification on exactly what you ment....

True if following the letter of the law, which BTW has not been interpreted in a court of law as far as I know, we DJs be us digital or playing off CD would be illegal. By the letter of the law.

I think it's safe to say that neither the RIAA nor any other musical representative really wants to try this in a court of law for fear that the outcome would open the flood gates they are sooooo desparate to keep closed...

Which is why I choose to not use any p2p source that is not legally licensed to provide music as a downloadable format. This at least keeps me more legal than the guy who has bought a loaded hard drive or spent a few weeks downloading crappy tracks from a p2p.
 
There's several times a popular song hits the airwaves before it comes out for US (especially if you have PO's once a month crap).

And yes, P2P usually gets songs before even the radio jocks get 'em.

Go look for Chinese Democracy!
 
Let me see if I understand the scenerio:

We are assuming that a new song is taking the radio waves by storm and you have a client that is desparate for that song to be played at their event. Yet this song has not been released to the general public nor to the DJ comunity at large. Right?

If that is your scenerio there is a major flaw... who is going to have it and will have made it available via a p2p?

I know I'm argueing symantics but that is a major problem see only radio has the track and unless someone has somehow copied the song from the radio how in the heck is it going to be available on a p2p?

In your second scenerio we are assuming A) you already own a copy but forgot it or B) you are planning to buy it anyway.

A) Well oops for your unpreparedness...:sqfrown:

B) Just go buy it there are plenty of 24 hour stores that would in all likelihood carry this particular CD if it's been on the market to the general public.

So my answer to both would be no... and if they are just asking for this music at the event and I can't get it via iTunes or the such assuming I have an internet connection... sorry but you should have asked for the song before the event... :sqfrown:

Trust me I understand your POV but for me that's a trap I just can't allow my self and my reputation to fall into.


If a track is released to radio at 12:00 on a Monday, at 12:01 I can go to limewire and find about 1000 available downloads of it, perfectly clear 320kbs quality.

If you have never used it, you really don't understand how much stuff is out there on it and how quickly things become available.

The record industry wants you to believe they are horrified that Limewire (and services like it) exist, but I can tell you for a fact, they are one the ones putting some of the stuff up on.

I have sat in a studio of a major act and watched a track being pulled directly from a board, not 30 seconds after if was just mastered and put up onto limewire.

I am not saying it is right or wrong, I am simply saying that unless you truly understand what goes on behind the scenes, you can not grasp the entire picture of what is happening.
 
Just to help clear the air here -

RIAA Sues LimeWire Over Piracy

By Ed Oswald, BetaNews
August 4, 2006, 4:10 PM

The company behind the file sharing program LimeWire was sued by the RIAA in federal court Friday, which is accusing the New York-based Lime Group LLC of facilitating the trade of illegal music files between its users. The labels are seeking damages, including $150,000 per occurrence of an illegally traded file.

RIAA claims that LimeWire's business model allows it to profit from the piracy trade, and its failure to block copyright content is a sign that the company is actively encouraging its users to pirate music. "Defendants not only have known of the infringement, but have promoted and relied upon it to build their business," it said in the complaint.

LimeWire has declined to comment on the situation.

The recording industry's latest move comes just days after it settled with Kazaa for $115 million, and dropped all pending litigation. Filtering technologies will be introduced on the service that will make it impossible to share illicit files. However, it is unclear if users will respond to the new format.

After other P2P sites either closed their doors or went legal, LimeWire continued to profit from staying in its current form, the RIAA alleges. The service has been around since 2000, and has grown into one of the most popular peer-to-peer sharing services.

Limewire has had time to go legal - it was one of several P2P services to receive a letter last September threatening legal action if they did not either shut down, or transfer to a licensed business model. Most, including WinMX and BearShare, decided to exit the business.

"While other services have come productively to the table, LimeWire has sat back and continued to reap profits on the backs of the music community," the RIAA said in a statement.

=====================

On a related note:

BearShare bites the dust, settles with RIAA for $30 million

May 5th 2006 4:30PM

Free Peers Incorporated, a company that distributed the BearShare Gnutella application, has reached a settlement with the music industry. According to court records, FreePeers, Inc. will pay a $30 million dollars to the plaintiffs of this case (Capitol Records, Sony-BMG, UMG Recordings, and Warner Music.)

On May 3rd, the plaintiffs filed a complaint against Free Peers, Inc., Vincent Falco (CEO and developer) and Louis Tatta (developer.) The plaintiffs contend that "...massive copyright infringement is the very purpose of the BearShare System and software...Defendants know it; they encourage and contribute to it; and they readily could prevent it - but choose not to."

Faced with the near impossible task of battling on the music industry in the P2P-hostile US courts, Free Peers, Inc. instead opted to negotiate. Free Peers, Inc. could theoretically challenge the complaint; however the current political climate is unlikely to benefit this P2P firm.

On June 26, 2005, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled, “We hold that one who distributes a device with the object of promoting its use to infringe copyright, as shown by clear expression or other affirmative steps taken to foster infringement, is liable for the resulting acts of infringement by third parties."

With a firm pro-music industry victory now in place, Free Peers, Inc. and several other P2P firms were the recipient of a September 13, 2005, cease and desist notification from the RIAA. The letter stated,

"We demand that you immediately cease-and-desist from enabling and inducing the infringement of RIAA member sound recordings. If you wish to discuss pre-litigation resolution of these claims against you, please contact us immediately."

It’s not clear whether the $30 million settlement was part of the above proposed negotiation, especially considering the music industry filed a complaint regardless. It’s possible the May 3rd filing was a means to force Free Peers, Inc. into negotiations and a settlement. As part of the settlement reached on May 4th, FreePeers, Inc. will give up all intellectual property rights to the BearShare name. This includes the BearShare source code, all associated domains (over 100), and its massive user base. Who benefits from this blockbuster deal?

The music industry, as it's now $30 million richer. Who else you ask?

P2P old timer, iMesh. Although the assets technically go to a purely administrative subsidiary, iMesh inherits everything related to BearShare; with the exception of its employees. It’s an amazing coup for iMesh, who benefit from being the only authorized P2P service. The P2P company has so far received the best settlement deal from the music industry. iMesh managed to settle at a comparatively low price ($4.1 million), while also being granted the right to continue its existence.

Perhaps comforting to some, the BearShare product shouldn't be considered completely dead. BearShare will still be distributed on BearShare.com, however the source code will not be released. Future development (albeit not from Mr. Falco or Mr. Tatta) is entirely conceivable as part of the growing iMesh consortium.

$30 million is a tremendous amount of money - even if the bill is split between three entities. However BearShare was, and still is, one of the best examples of file-sharing software ever developed. This kind of achievement doesn't go unnoticed, and neither will Mr. Falco or Mr. Tatta when they venture off into the IT world.
=====================
 
Pat

If that is the case that really leaves a nasty feeling in my stomach...

I'm not nieve enough not to believe that can and does happen... but, the fact that it does still gives me no right to do it just because everyone else does... I mean really if everyone else was jumping off a cliff should I follow suit?

I'm not saying how anyone chooses to run their business is right or wrong but for me downloading from what is suppose to be an illegal source is wrong for me...

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I've never considered it though, that would be a lie. I guess I just can't bring myself to that level... I know, I know what if... well that what if hasn't happened for me yet. I've always been able to get the tracks I needed legally.

I wont lie I have been to limewire... and frankly I didn't see tons of high quality music being made available most was at 128 or less bit rates and the second I got a piece of malware I got rid of limewire all together never downloading a thing and I still got spyware from the sight and a trojen (sp?) warning. Needless to say I don't want my show pc exposed to that kind of threat.
 
There are 2 huge major difference between limewire and the other services, and one of those difference is a reason the RIAA is going to have a very hard time shutting them down.

When you first download the software, it will ask you if you plan to use the software for downloading of copy protected material. If you click yes, you can not down load the software.

If you click no, you are specifically instructed that if you upload or download copy written material, you are breaking the law and can be held responsible for any civil litigation as a result. They basically completely remove themselves from the process.

Also, when you upgrade to LimewirePro, in the EUA, it tells you that your information (IP address and other info) can be shared with outside parties, in essence, they are telling you that you will be turned over to the RIAA if they come knocking.

The problem with the RIAA is that, as recently happened, there blanket "John Doe" warrant tactics have been rules unconstitutional and they really have no way to enforce their position anymore.
 
I have a friend that went to Vegas on two different occassions. Talked to two different RIAA people and got two different answers...go figure. They arnt even sure how the letter of the law would work for mobile djs.

The ADJA, NAME AND MAPDJ all have people talking on how to make music legal for us to play. I guess Im just a simple minded person....what if all djs who are truly concerned about being legal signed a petition. We went to the RIAA and said, look why dont you open up a site for us to download music from. Each dj will pay lets say $250.00 to join and $25.00 per month to be a part, sort of like a union. The site would have a code to get into for each one with a pass word. We then get all the music we want no problem. Money is being paid and the artists then get money.

Just a thought
 
You do know that music pools like PO and JonesTM DON'T pay the artist royalities, right? The RIAA is making the money here...

So what your saying is that the RIAA, the ones who are suppose to be protecting the artists are in actuality ripping them off also?
 
So what your saying is that the RIAA, the ones who are suppose to be protecting the artists are in actuality ripping them off also?

The RIAA is far from an artist protection agency. They are a corporate extension of the major record labels out to only serve the interests of those labels. They have zero interest in any artist not bringing in dollars into their coffers.

If you as ANY up and coming act, they will be the first to tell you that they want people to get their music anyway they can, because the lifeblood of anyone not considered a "major" act is not cd or digital sales, but word of mouth to build a base for a success tour.

I will let you all know that the first thing every one of my 13 managed bands does after finishing any new recording is to put it up on every P2P sharing site, because they know that is where they can get the word out.

If all of these sites get shut down, it will completely destroy the local/regional touring market. Bands get word of mouth from downloading.

If I have to hear Don Henley, Stevie Nicks or Sheryl Crow bitching about how downloaders are taking food out of their mouth, I will scream. Because any long established artists does not make money based on their CD sales, but instead get locked down guarantees up front which have nothing to do with CD sales. So if their disc sells 20 copies or 20 million, it does not matter to them, because they already have their money.
 
I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I've never considered it though, that would be a lie.
I wont lie I have been to limewire... and frankly I didn't see tons of high quality music being made available most was at 128 or less bit rates and the second I got a piece of malware I got rid of limewire

jokerswild said:
I have not, will not and never will ever, EVER!!!

Let me repeat myself, Never will I use any illegal source to obtain even the most obscure track.


...hmmmm; how can you get malware without downloading it...:sqconfused: