Can you name some specific examples of outstanding talent among MDJs who can't acheive a greater reward, and highlight the primary source of their oppression?
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- Thread starter Dude Walker
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Can you name some specific examples of outstanding talent among MDJs who can't acheive a greater reward, and highlight the primary source of their oppression?
Want to hear the sad part? In my market you can get a good band for around $500.00 on weekends and even cheaper if you book during the week
Unconditionally agree with that.
I don't feel threatened by the bands. There are some live bands that I have seen that are darn good in the wedding arena. I still don't think a band can match the things a dj can provide. Honestly, they are shooting for a different type of clientel than I am.
Could they be competitive to me or others? I suppose, if they had a member that did training on speaking, interactive bits, etc. I doubt many would go that far, any more than dj's are willing to make the extra effort.
Heck, I am sure bands have their share of low lifes and price choppers that don't respect the importance of what they do for the client also. Just like some dj's, it's just another "gig" for spending money.. (I hate that word).
I am beginning to think that a major reason why brides don't respect us is we don't respect them (or ourselves), or the importance of their event and money.
They bust butt for their money. Why spend it on someone that thinks it's just another gig. Isn't willing to listen to them, etc.
Ipod?? Not even in the same state. If I "lose" a job to an Ipod, I either need to hang it up, or there was no way the client was ever going to be mine. No competition. When they learn to speak, entertain, be interactive, read a crowd, create different "feel" at different times. Then.... Not likely.
While I still think it is worth the money to spend on a better form of entertainment... Some people just wanna "Burger king" it. Let em have it "their way". I have extra equipment sitting around. Thinking seriously about putting together an ipod rental package. Yes, there are some people that just can't be convinced. Why not try to capitalize???
Jeff, Things I specifically listed, arguable too a degree.
The so much more... come on now... your joking right??? (see above also.)
Reading a crowd.
Knowing what to play, when.
Knowing when to "kill" a song or set that isn't working.
being more than "just music".
Oh, yea, How many of us are saying we are "more than just music"??? Or "we don't just push play"???
But shudder at the word IPOD or Band???
Sorry, but if you are worried in the least little, you should be worried a lot. You don't have a clue about what this business is really about, and really should do some soul searching about who and what you are, and learning what you could be.
Yes,
Most dj's that only source of information are chat boards, buying into the "I Can't mentality", or "not in my market".
Plentiful examples.
Anyone that is compelled to apply the backend principle as a way to operate within what the market will bear (glass ceiling)... Which sadly and oppressively impedes greater rewards commensurate to talents.
Translation: "No, I don't have any actual examples."
Then FlyingDan; name 6 of them - oustanding DJ talent that can't acheive greater reward.
Proformance Wrote:
Nice try. Call em out huh? Attack someone to suit your arrogance? I don't think so.
Bob, a little "common sence", professional courtesy, self respect, and morals prohibit me to start playing "beat the dj down".
Give me a break. Look at every chat board. There are posts all over the place with people that have exellent talent, and either poor business sense (usually), or poor belief of self worth, that keep saying that they can't cut the mustard. I can't charge more, I can't book, I can't overcome... Mantra's everywhere.
I am hoping that with the bolding and emphasis on "can't" that you are thinking that they could overcome most of their "objections and obsticals if they were to try. IF that is the case, I agree. They just don't want to do the work required to overcome. Charging more, and being more can be done.
I just did a bar last night. Very small bar. Probably about 50 people, and that was very crowded. 9-12:30 for $300.00. Not killer money per se, but a hell of a lot more than many charge for big dance clubs! Believe and work!
Greater reward is also much more than $$. That I know. Look at how many are super proud of doing free events. Walk for life. Cancer benefits, MS. Etc. Sometimes, sharing our talents with these groups are much more rewarding than any amont of $$.
Greater rewards, both financially and emotionally can be attained. It can be done with work, and education of both the business owner (dj) and clientel.
Names? No thanks. Not playing that game.
Why do you always insist on calling people "out"? People think Peter Merry is arrogant?
Not today.
Nice try. Call em out huh? Attack someone to suit your arrogance? I don't think so.
Bob, a little "common sence", professional courtesy, self respect, and morals prohibit me to start playing "beat the dj down".
Give me a break. Look at every chat board. There are posts all over the place with people that have exellent talent, and either poor business sense (usually), or poor belief of self worth, that keep saying that they can't cut the mustard. I can't charge more, I can't book, I can't overcome... Mantra's everywhere.
I am hoping that with the bolding and emphasis on "can't" that you are thinking that they could overcome most of their "objections and obsticals if they were to try. IF that is the case, I agree. They just don't want to do the work required to overcome. Charging more, and being more can be done.
I just did a bar last night. Very small bar. Probably about 50 people, and that was very crowded. 9-12:30 for $300.00. Not killer money per se, but a hell of a lot more than many charge for big dance clubs! Believe and work!
Greater reward is also much more than $$. That I know. Look at how many are super proud of doing free events. Walk for life. Cancer benefits, MS. Etc. Sometimes, sharing our talents with these groups are much more rewarding than any amont of $$.
Greater rewards, both financially and emotionally can be attained. It can be done with work, and education of both the business owner (dj) and clientel.
Names? No thanks. Not playing that game.
Why do you always insist on calling people "out"? People think Peter Merry is arrogant?
Not today.
The question was: "overcome what" specifically FlyingDan, and who is it that can point to something other than their own lack of talent as a limitation on their rewards ?
You don't have a single real world example of someone to support the quoted petty gripe about "rewards" oppression do you?
No one is asking you too compromise anything, just answer a grown up question. Show us someone of exceptional talent whose rewards are being externally limited by artificial means.
Will there ever be a question you or Dude can answer without running to hide behind the apron strings of feigned indignation? The two of you toss out sweeping generalities about people yet never have a face to put on them.
A chat board is enough prove to you someone's exceptional talent? That is exceptionally naive.
"I can't ..." excuses are not an example of a limitation; they are a lack of a talents known as ingenuity and persistence.
I contend that the counter examples abound even here in "chat-land".
How about Johnny Dee? I've never read a complaint about "rewards" from him - and he obviously has at least the baseline talent to satisfy your criteria ?
Conversely, your anonymous supporting cast is just people of limited combined talent who want to blame someone (anyone) else for their own limitations.
Get over it.
I can name at least one example: ME! I've been told by more than a few colleagues that I'm an outstanding DJ, and I really don't have any self-doubt issues. Again, though, my state has some extreme economic problems that set us apart from the rest of the U.S. -- at least for the moment -- so my situation is not a fair comparison to many other areas. (See my bit in Mobile Beat called "The Frill Is Gone," May, 2007.) In any case, my situation is totally dictated by my market. It's not my selling, it's not my product, it's not confidence or fear. It's about my nasty habit of needing food each day and the fact that I stuck to my guns long enough to nearly deplete my calendar before I made the one adjustment that I'd missed along the way: lowering my rates. Everyone else in my market did, OR they got a day job.
When I wrote the article, I interviewed several local DJs. I'm not alone, nor am I on some misguided flight of fancy. Is it coming to your state? Hard to say. I suggest not electing any former Canadian governors, though.
Stu,
Thank you for that "breath of fresh air" honesty and the integrity to post your thoughts.
Be 100% certain... any current lean time being experienced by you and others is NOT a failure or weakness in your ablities. The FACT that you and others are still in the battle provides evidence to the contrary. Most likely due to exceptional talents.
Thank you for that "breath of fresh air" honesty and the integrity to post your thoughts.
Be 100% certain... any current lean time being experienced by you and others is NOT a failure or weakness in your ablities. The FACT that you and others are still in the battle provides evidence to the contrary. Most likely due to exceptional talents.
Understood Stu, but tell me:
Did you lower your rate due to the economic climate or because your talent and rewards are being oppressed?
Did you lower your rate to meet your customer's economic preferences - or because you are controlled and limited by other DJs not as talented as yourself?
Have you hit the ceiling because people won't pay more or because other DJs and society won't let you charge what you want?
As I understand you - you have appropriately put the blame on the economy NOT on some artificial limitation of your talent.
Did you lower your rate due to the economic climate or because your talent and rewards are being oppressed?
Did you lower your rate to meet your customer's economic preferences - or because you are controlled and limited by other DJs not as talented as yourself?
Have you hit the ceiling because people won't pay more or because other DJs and society won't let you charge what you want?
As I understand you - you have appropriately put the blame on the economy NOT on some artificial limitation of your talent.
No, I don't see any limitation on my talent, artificial or otherwise. In fact, I've spoken to many colleagues who keep adding other features and effects along with tweaking their performance in the hopes of attracting more business. We are all doing this to an extent, but the economy won't tolerate higher rates. And yes, I think it's more than just that.
For instance, no matter what the economy did, if DJs did the same thing as, say, Lexus dealers did, and just kept their rates the same, then people might not hire us as often, but when they did, they'd pay the prices WE set. All it takes is a few companies to break ranks, sell themselves out for a pittance, and the ENTIRE industry is effected. To my knowledge, there haven't been any rogue Lexus dealers knocking out crazy deals here in the big D.
Over the past four or five months, I've gotten the best reviews of my career! So the tweaking of my performance has only improved things, and I guess you could call that the silver lining in the dark cloud. In the meantime, though, Michigan continues to bleed jobs, prices of staples like milk and produce are climbing and EVERY call I get is focused on price. I even got a "ferrinstance" for ya...
Back in '04 I had a couple all signed-up. A few months before their scheduled reception, they broke up and canceled. The groom's mother had paid their deposit, so I sent her a notice that her payment would remain on deposit for up to three years, so she could transfer it to any other unbooked date she chose. (That's been my policy since I started.) So flash forward to the week before last. I get a call -- apparently a sibling is getting married sometime next year. She asks if she can apply her deposit and lock in their date. I agree and sent her a contract. When I didn't hear from her by the next week, I gave her a call. Get this: When her one kid signed-up, my rate was $995, and their deposit was $175.00 (a special arrangement). I carried over their deposit and sent a new contract at my lower rate, $750.00, leaving a balance of $575.00. I thought they'd be ecstatic -- no more money upfront, a lower rate with a lower balance -- life is good, right? NOT!
They decided not to book, because even my new rate was more than they'd been HEARING FROM OTHER DJS.
So in that regard, you bet your sweet iPod I'm being "oppressed!" As with most things in life, our industry is being buffeted by many different winds from many different directions. I have our horrible economy to deal with, as do DJs in Ohio and some other states that haven't rebounded yet, plus we have the new "do-it-yourself" trend where people are convinced they can replace us with the aforementioned iPod. The ever increasing technology that we love, making our gear smaller, lighter and, above all, CHEAPER, has also lowered the cost of entry for amateurs. Cheap gear and the ability to download music, often for free, has opened the floodgates to true "bottom feeder" competition. So we have a choice: ignore it and likely perish, unless you're one of the lucky DJs who has a great day job that actually subsidizes their DJ biz, or we can respond to these realities and do the best we can. For the time being, I've chosen the latter.
Wouldn't your "ferrinstance" be attributed more to the leveling of time and technology rather than the actions of other DJs?
Consider this, there is much less difficulty and expense involved with DJing a wedding in 2007 then there was in 1987. 20 Years provides for a lot of change in the marketplace.
The equipment is more available and less expensive.
Music proliferates. It's easier to get your hands on, can be sampled before you buy, and consequently much cheaper to acquire.
There is also an entire generation of MTv bread, gadget minded people, enthusiastically ready to bring music and dance to your next party.
It is only natural for the price to come down on a service whose differential barrier is shrinking.
The standard to which professionals hold themselves can sometimes extend beyond what the average consumer really desires from the service.
When something is only available by the dozen, you have to buy the whole pack even if you want just six. So there really isn't any additional value in a dozen if you don't need all twelve. You actually end up over-spending too fill your need.
Once an option that more closely fits your need comes along you'll quit buying the 12 pack.
For example, I rarely see videographers at weddings anymore, probably only about 1 out of 4. In the late 80's early 90's it was about 3 out of 4. What changed is the barrier between the consumer and what they really want out of their video. The standard for professional wedding videography is higher than many people care to get from their video, and new technology means now they can get something smaller than the 12 pack.
I'm not advocating that people lower their standards. I'm saying that as you re-invent yourself and add more you have to keep an eye too what users really want from the service.
To be successful you should consider the subtle difference between being better versus being more attractive.
Consider this, there is much less difficulty and expense involved with DJing a wedding in 2007 then there was in 1987. 20 Years provides for a lot of change in the marketplace.
The equipment is more available and less expensive.
Music proliferates. It's easier to get your hands on, can be sampled before you buy, and consequently much cheaper to acquire.
There is also an entire generation of MTv bread, gadget minded people, enthusiastically ready to bring music and dance to your next party.
It is only natural for the price to come down on a service whose differential barrier is shrinking.
The standard to which professionals hold themselves can sometimes extend beyond what the average consumer really desires from the service.
When something is only available by the dozen, you have to buy the whole pack even if you want just six. So there really isn't any additional value in a dozen if you don't need all twelve. You actually end up over-spending too fill your need.
Once an option that more closely fits your need comes along you'll quit buying the 12 pack.
For example, I rarely see videographers at weddings anymore, probably only about 1 out of 4. In the late 80's early 90's it was about 3 out of 4. What changed is the barrier between the consumer and what they really want out of their video. The standard for professional wedding videography is higher than many people care to get from their video, and new technology means now they can get something smaller than the 12 pack.
I'm not advocating that people lower their standards. I'm saying that as you re-invent yourself and add more you have to keep an eye too what users really want from the service.
To be successful you should consider the subtle difference between being better versus being more attractive.
Profomance:
I think I understand your point of view. Thru out most all of your postings you seem to argue one specific theme...
Cheap and unscrupulous dj's just plain do not exist. If they are cheaper, it is not thru having more business "savy" than the rest of us?? Other dj's over produce shows. Over "equip" shows. etc.
Yes, there is a difference between better and more attractive.
There isn't a dj on this board that can't make themselves more attractive. (cheaper). Some of us just respect ourselves, our time, our talents, and what we offer to just lower our standards to get the job.
I think I understand your point of view. Thru out most all of your postings you seem to argue one specific theme...
Cheap and unscrupulous dj's just plain do not exist. If they are cheaper, it is not thru having more business "savy" than the rest of us?? Other dj's over produce shows. Over "equip" shows. etc.
Yes, there is a difference between better and more attractive.
There isn't a dj on this board that can't make themselves more attractive. (cheaper). Some of us just respect ourselves, our time, our talents, and what we offer to just lower our standards to get the job.
In short, no. It is definitely due to the actions of other DJs. I'm not talking about the beginners, volume hacks and other lowballers that we've always had in the background. (And this isn't a slam -- many great DJs had to start somewhere!) I'm talking about colleagues who have been in the business for years and years with solid skills and reputations. For whatever reason, and with very few exceptions, they lowered their rates. It took me a while to realize what happened! I'd still get calls, but once a price was quoted I'd never hear from them again. My calendar began to suffer. It was only then that I began to suspect what happened.
I'm also a bit perplexed by your statements. We've long ago talked about what we, as professional DJs, bring to the table. It's been true for a long time now that anyone with a gold card can go to PSSL or the local DJ toystore, buy a rig and a base collection and call themselves a mobile DJ. I'm not selling my gear or effects. While I promote the vastness of my music library, I'm not selling that either. Ultimately what we are all selling is ourselves.
The problems come from ourselves as well. Because so many in my market ARE selling their lights, gear and library, those are the questions my callers ask. It's what they expect and how they compare. While I can often turn them around and make them consider the personal aspect, some don't even want to hear it. They want to know "how much" and "for what?" Inevitably when price comes up, I get, "Well, the OTHER guys quoted me _____ for the same thing!" At that point, if I responded with, "Yes, but they can't give you ME," I'm sure I'd just hear a loud *click!*. But that IS the case, and it's all in how you say it.
Videographers have disappeared due to the technology as well. Back when I had my wedding, a camcorder was very expensive, and editing systems were too. To offer clients anything besides raw video, you'd need a minimum of ten grand (if you bought used), and more likely double that. Twenty years later that camcorder is smaller, higher resolution, maybe digital, and about half the cost. Instead of that dedicated AVID editor, you can go to Best Buy and get video editing software that will run on almost any desktop computer. Oh, and they've dropped in price dramatically. So, in short, ANYONE can do video, and even do it well! No, you're not going to get Francis Ford Coppolla, but you'll get something better than what I got in 1985.
Note, too, that photographers are also feeling the techno-pinch. Digital cameras are plentiful and cheap, and how many people do you know who don't know about PhotoShop? When I did photography in the '70s, I had two cameras and a bag of lenses worth some $7,000.00, a backdrop, flash units and umbrellas worth about another three grand, and then had to buy time in a developing house to use their $27,000.00 enlargers and $100,000.00+ color developing machines. Today? An 8 MP (or better) digital camera -- even a high end unit -- costs under three grand. Flash equipment is now cheaper, so add maybe a grand. A PC for about six hundred to $1,000.00 and PhotoShop, if you don't bootleg it, for about $700.00. Oh, and a photo quality printer for a couple hundred bucks. So the cost of admission to new photographers has dropped by 75%!!! The old guard who remain have adjusted their rates and a great many have gone digital as well.
Photographers and videographers don't have any "personality" to sell. Unless you're Annie Liebovicz (sp?), to a client, you're just a video or photo album. Naturally your questions would be "how much" and "what do I get?" You don't care that the photographer has his / her name on their awning, or that they won awards. Except for a dedicated few, my clients don't care about my accolades either.
Telling DJs to improve is like telling drowning Katrina victims to take swimming lessons. The tide of change is upon us already. We're up to our necks. If you don't already know what you need, then it's too late. Swim or drown. The old paradigm won't work -- the times, they are a changin'.
Lastly, saying that because our overhead (equipment, music, etc.) has become less, maybe we should charge less is overlooking the economic realities of today's world. Yes, equipment costs less, as does music. Yet I'm looking over my records for the past decade, and I'm actually spending MORE for music today! Why? Well, back in 1990, I had no call for Latin music. Today it's everywhere, and I use three services to keep me up to date. My main service also has added other formats that my clients have been calling for. In '90 I had almost no Christian music beyond the occasional Amy Grant or Petra request. Today, I often have requests to play nothing BUT Christian stuff. No more cheap record pools either.
Equipment is indeed cheaper and lighter. But it can become obsolete very fast! That nice, shiny (and cheap) CD player I bought just two years ago is now in my closet, because I now use a Cortex. Those cool par cans that I replaced just a few years ago with color changers are now being replaced by DMX LED lights. Gone are the days when we'd buy gear and use it until it failed. While my annual equipment budget hasn't increased, it has remained fairly level.
And this doesn't negate the other economic realities: my gas costs three times what it cost a decade ago. My car insurance and health insurance premiums have gone one way: up. Food costs more, my rent is higher and I now get a water bill, something that used to be "free." For a DJ who depends on his business for his livelihood, making less money in the face of these realities is not an option. I have indeed been "adding more," both to my performance and gear, as well as side income that I didn't have before, but aside from those extra income streams, it has had the effect of working harder for less -- the exact opposite of the "work smarter, not harder" paradigm. Does that mean it, too, is obsolete? Or is this just a harbinger that we're in the last days of a dying industry?
Or it could be that I live in Michigan, a place akin to the Twilight Zone of economic reality?
I would love to sit and have a long conversation with you Stu it almost sounds like we work in the same market
G
Guest
Guest
I'm still getting a contradiction in your message Stu.
By your description, it seems that the "other DJs" spotted the changing needs in the customer field, and you were just late to identify the needed adjustments of scale.
I'll admit there is a shrinking in the over-all need for DJs, while at the same time there is an expansion of the number of "DJ capable" people.
On another of your points, you mention that we are selling "ourselves" rather than equipment. I think there is also a scale at work here too.
How different are you from the people you serve? Can your clients put together coherent sentences? Can they give basic instructions to a group of friends, relatives, or co-workers? Did they come up with a list of requests they like? Have they ever used a computer or loaded a CD player?
The point I'm making is that all of your clients have lives and jobs of their own - and most of the skills we use to DJ are used by all manner of people in many other fields of endeavor. The most basic concern of most customer's is whether we are capable and not necessarily oustanding.
As for gear, it is still an important part of gettig hired since obviously not everyone is walking around with 1000's of watts of amplification equipment. Again, customers want to know your capability.
Then, did customers ask if you had LED's and the Cortex? I always ask myself before makig an upgrade "am I doing this for a real customer or just to satisfy my self image" ? That question has saved me many thousands of dollars over the years and made the work much more profitable.
Not really, because the economic realities affect all businesses across the board. When it comes to gear I was thinking more in terms of the gap between typical DJ gear and what is in the majority of people's living rooms.
Think not so much about the gear getting cheaper - but more like the cheaper gear is gaining more capability.
Thus, the downward pressure on pricing comes because the gap between the capability you bring to their event; vesus the capability they already have in their home or office is significantly smaller than it used to be. Now, where the customer is not so different from yourself - that could even include MC skills.
The better paying clients are often people who are delegating a responsibility, rather than those filling a need. So when it comes to the average wedding market "needs" often dictate "economy."
By your description, it seems that the "other DJs" spotted the changing needs in the customer field, and you were just late to identify the needed adjustments of scale.
I'll admit there is a shrinking in the over-all need for DJs, while at the same time there is an expansion of the number of "DJ capable" people.
On another of your points, you mention that we are selling "ourselves" rather than equipment. I think there is also a scale at work here too.
How different are you from the people you serve? Can your clients put together coherent sentences? Can they give basic instructions to a group of friends, relatives, or co-workers? Did they come up with a list of requests they like? Have they ever used a computer or loaded a CD player?
The point I'm making is that all of your clients have lives and jobs of their own - and most of the skills we use to DJ are used by all manner of people in many other fields of endeavor. The most basic concern of most customer's is whether we are capable and not necessarily oustanding.
As for gear, it is still an important part of gettig hired since obviously not everyone is walking around with 1000's of watts of amplification equipment. Again, customers want to know your capability.
Then, did customers ask if you had LED's and the Cortex? I always ask myself before makig an upgrade "am I doing this for a real customer or just to satisfy my self image" ? That question has saved me many thousands of dollars over the years and made the work much more profitable.
Not really, because the economic realities affect all businesses across the board. When it comes to gear I was thinking more in terms of the gap between typical DJ gear and what is in the majority of people's living rooms.
Think not so much about the gear getting cheaper - but more like the cheaper gear is gaining more capability.
Thus, the downward pressure on pricing comes because the gap between the capability you bring to their event; vesus the capability they already have in their home or office is significantly smaller than it used to be. Now, where the customer is not so different from yourself - that could even include MC skills.
The better paying clients are often people who are delegating a responsibility, rather than those filling a need. So when it comes to the average wedding market "needs" often dictate "economy."
gee not to mention because of better equipment would a brain surgeon today expect less pay since of course his job is much easier.