It's going down...

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Stu, I separated this because it really hasn't got anything to do with what you're talking about.

We've seen the devastation in other industries where rogue dealers or entities break ranks and set a new low. Look at the whole home mortgage business. It used to be rock solid. Now it's just a mess.
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The people to blame for problems in the home mortgage market is the home buyers, you, me, and everyone else. We are the ones who created the demand for risky loans.

I DO have a legitimate beef with a great many of my colleagues. I understand the fear that made them break ranks. But to cop a line from Dr. Phil: how's it workin' for ya?
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Were your colleagues aware that they were in your "ranks" ?
You just sound really bitter, and that aint workin' at all for me. :sqeek:
 
Unfortunately, you and many people are still trapped in the his mistaken step of letting his original point develop into a call to faith for price fixing.
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I feel a class action lawsuit comming on... There isn't a legit business out there that I know of that doesn't have minimum advertised pricing. By your definition, sounds like price fixing all over to me!

Mark states $1200.00 should be the average price for a quality dj.

Try listening to tapes 2 and especially 3. Big difference in just setting a price to charge, and being more with a higher average price charged.

Funny thing. Most of us (myself included) are no where near that price. Those seminar tapes and that number was from 1999 I think?? Here it is 2007and few are successfully getting $1200.00. I doubt strongly a lawer would take the "price fixing" case to court with any success.

So, Bob, Hypothetical...

A bunch of new dj's get into your market. Due to their own personal financial situations, (both husband and wife have exellent paying full time jobs, independently wealthy, whatever.) They are able to successfully "hobby" themselves at $200.00 lower than your pricing.

Are you still going to be able to hold true to your belief that it is 'your fault' you are no longer able to compete on the stage?

A person calls 10 dj's, and gets average price quotes from $1000.00 -$1400.00 (that hold true to their price and worth), and then one at $500.00 that is willing to go cheaper.

Would that not set a different idea of what a dj should cost than calling and finding average $500.00 - to $900.00 and one at $1400.00 (where the 1400.00 holds true, and the rest fight to get the job just to make a date full?

Experience and quality, in the "normal world" of business demands more respect and higher wages. Why is it in this field, we are so willing to get more experience, be better, do more, and whore ourselves out to the "lowest bidder"???
 
Proformance said:
Stu, I separated this because it really hasn't got anything to do with what you're talking about.



The people to blame for problems in the home mortgage market is the home buyers, you, me, and everyone else. We are the ones who created the demand for risky loans.



Were your colleagues aware that they were in your "ranks" ?
You just sound really bitter, and that aint workin' at all for me. :sqeek:
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Using the bolded...

The people to blame for problems in the dj market is the dj buyers, you, me, and everyone else. We (the dj buyer) are the ones who created the demand for risky dj's.

So we should say, that the client "created the demand" for a risky dj that may not show up, get drunk, provide questionable service, on the clients??? And not the fact that they were even available to be had???
 
Using the bolded...

The people to blame for problems in the dj market is the dj buyers, you, me, and everyone else. We (the dj buyer) are the ones who created the demand for risky dj's.

So we should say, that the client "created the demand" for a risky dj that may not show up, get drunk, provide questionable service, on the clients???
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No not at all, because I don't accept your assumption that there is a problem with risky DJs.

:sqrolleyes:
 
No not at all, because I don't accept your assumption that there is a problem with risky DJs.
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Oh, that's right. The dj world is the only one where there aren't unscrupulous and unethical business practices. My mistake.

unless...

Unscrupulous and unethical business practices are the norm for the industry??? Thus, this would be no problem?

Or,

One is that type of dj... thus no problem...

Or,

One has their head in the third point of contact.
 
Proformance said:
You just sound really bitter, and that aint workin' at all for me. :sqeek:
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Bob,

This is a prime example of how you are myopic & misguided. Perhaps delusional would be a better word.

The "you", "your" & "you're" that you take issue with...with nearly every concern raised by any MDJ is negated by it's inability of workin for you???

Wow, are you a victim of self love! What you find self centered in other is in all reality just a reflection of you and your personal shortcomings.
 
Experience and quality, in the "normal world" of business demands more respect and higher wages. Why is it in this field, we are so willing to get more experience, be better, do more, and whore ourselves out to the "lowest bidder"???
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Dan, perhaps that describes you, and those you choose too surround you, but it certainly does not descruibe the "normal world" of business that I live and work in.

I'm sorry, I just don't live in the hypothetical world of treachory you've constructed.

The most striking thing about all of your arguments is the bitterness and contempt you have for the people in these nameless "examples". If that is the message that seeps into that "marketing material" you were talking about, I suggest that your price is not what customer's find objectionable.

Fortunate you are to be surrounded by so much evil. How could you ever describe yourself without it? :sqwink:

I'll agree to disagree but I choose to remain in a my "dellusional" world of a healthier mind set.
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Some choose to deal with reality, some choose to create a reality.

Do you per chance live in the land called "disney" where everyone lives in peace and happily ever after??

No, I don't "focus" on the immoral. However, to not aknowlege the existance of said, is fairytail at its best, and ignorance at worst.

Good thing rose coloring is cheap and easily attainable.

A weather forcast is good to have. Tho not always accurate, one can prepare for rain by carying an umbrella. If it doesn't, you may have wasted the effort of having it along. If it does, you are prepared, and not all wet.

It will be interresting when the storm clouds do form and a little rain does happen to fall in your yard, what you will do.

Good lesson from scouting... Be Prepared.
 
Proformance said:
Stu,

I am familiar with Ferrell's message in ALL it's permutations, and the original source ideas from which he drew them.

Unfortunately, you and many people are still trapped in his mistaken step of letting his original point develop into a call to faith for price fixing.

:sqmad:

You repeat this theme with multiple variations throughout your post.
You are demanding that other people respect your idea of what a DJ should be, and how he should be priced.

You also complain that the hobbyist doesn't run his show like a business - well duh? What part of "hobby" escaped you? :rofl:



Clearly it isn't true, or you wouldn't be so peeved about everyone else's business. :sqwink:

You as a DJ set the status for your company alone.

The customer's balance out the industry as they vote with their feet and their wallet. If you are too high or too low for what they expect they go somewhere else. Yes, I also said too low. People are smart enough to know when your price indicates you don't have the required skills to meet their demands. Too high means you expect to sell more than they care to buy.



Bose is NOT an industry. It is one company that chose direct marketing as the primary way to sell it products. (The strict price controls prevent Bose from having to compete directly with it's own dealers.)



Personally I'm among that group of people that has never liked Bose equipment, so "great deal" would be a mute point for me. (But, that's a side issue.)

Do I reject the idea of charging an appropriate fee for your services? Of course not. But that is not the message you are delivering.
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First off, I am an atheist, rationalist and skeptic, so when you use the word "faith," you blunder into a display of ignorance -- of me and of Ferrell's "mistaken" ideas. Like a good many people, I was skeptical when I came out of the first "Worth" seminar as well. So skeptical that I forgot about the whole thing. A few months later I had joined my local Chamber of Commerce. One of the incentives to new members they offered was to go over and / or develop a business plan. Like many other DJs, I had no real plan. (I did keep extensive accounting records, though.) So I went in and spent the better part of the day having the experts go over my business from top to bottom. This normally would've been something routine -- even mundane -- and I wouldn't be mentioning it nearly a decade later. But when the team at my chamber advised me that I should be charging a minimum of $1,200.00 per event, it made me take a harder look into Ferrell's facts and figures. The business guys arrived at the exact same figure independently, and I hadn't breathed a word to them.

Turns out that Mark Ferrell isn't a genius or marketing god, nor is he attempting to "price fix" anything. He simply borrowed the same information that businesses use every day. Unlike nearly every DJ on the planet, he applied it to his DJ business. DUH.

You also are mistaken when you say that I demand that people respect my idea of what a DJ should be. I don't particularly CARE what someone thinks a DJ should be and make no demands. Hell, DJs have expanded into so many areas of entertainment that even the term "DJ" has become a bit of a quaint misnomer. I, for one, applaud the diversity among entertainers. The more we differentiate, the easier it is to market ourselves. I only wish that such diversity was universal. Then I'd be like BOSE.

And you DID note my admonition to not get too into my analogy -- it was designed to point out a single similarity between the DJ industry and the way BOSE operates. (But I do share your dislike of their gear. I'm an EV / EAW man myself.)

I also don't mind the hobbyists -- they've been around for as long as our industry, and they really aren't my competition... normally. My complaint is with those professionals (and those CLAIMING to be) who operate as a hobbyist, without any real plan or knowledge of their true financial situation. I might help out a good friend or family member with the expenses of an event they're planning, and I might even volunteer for a good cause. (In fact, I do!) But is it smart, wise or advisable for a group to work a day job to subsidize the events of total strangers? A whole market? And how will the professionals survive? This isn't the free market at work as much as ignorance and fear.

Charging an appropriate fee is PRECISELY the message I'm delivering! But who defines "appropriate." To me, appropriate means fair to all parties. That includes the DJ.

Have you ever had a client call and toss out a price at you? I know I do! And it makes me wonder where they get the idea that they can get a DJ for such a price. When I've asked, I usually hear something like, "That's what another DJ quoted me." This is a far cry from other industries! Try calling your local dentist for a quote for a new crown. Any you call will be within a very narrow cost difference. Do they "collude" or "price fix," or do they just understand their situation better than we do? They have unions and professional associations that offer advice. What do you think might happen if you called a dentist and said, "I need a new crown, but I can only pay $80.00."?

Do you see rogue dentists offering services far below standard costs? If you do, let me in on it, 'cause I need a bit of work myself. :)
 
Proformance said:
Stu, I separated this because it really hasn't got anything to do with what you're talking about.



The people to blame for problems in the home mortgage market is the home buyers, you, me, and everyone else. We are the ones who created the demand for risky loans.




Were your colleagues aware that they were in your "ranks" ?
You just sound really bitter, and that aint workin' at all for me. :sqeek:
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I might agree with you if consumers had any idea of how mortgages work. But they don't. Like most things that people buy, they're simply looking for a good deal. When lender A says that they can get them into a quarter of a million dollar home for $3,000.00 a month and lender B says, "I can do that for a grand," which do you think they'll choose? Should they be required to know the ins and outs of real estate financing? If so, then I have no business buying a computer because I haven't the foggiest of how THEY work either.

Yes, my colleagues are definitely aware of their place in the DJ pecking order. And no, I'm not trying to be elitist. I'm just acknowledging the differences. A bunch of them are my friends! I'm talking about the people who were around during the boom times -- they have 15, 20 or more years in the biz. They're the names that stay in the phone book from year to year while the others -- the majority in my market -- come and go. They're multi-ops, independents and everything in-between. And while we often hang out and do things together, we've seldom talked about what we charge. That's why I was so surprised to learn that so many abandoned their business plans. There was one lady DJ that I hadn't talked to in ages, and I decided to give her a call for my Mobile Beat piece on our economic situation. I was stunned when she answered her cellphone at her DAY job! She had been full-time for more than a decade and even expanding when we last spoke. But our economy worked it's "magic" and here she was, working for someone else.

I have no bitterness or ire. Those types of feelings are a bit alien to me. I will admit to some frustration to be sure. Nobody likes it much when their wages drop and their costs go up. And again, unless you're in Michigan or Ohio, you really aren't in the vortex of the economic storm. My hope is that our experiences here might help other entrepreneurs when bad times DO come to your town.
 
I only wish that such diversity was universal.
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You're too funny. Isn't universal diversity an oxymoron?

I know the economy is declining for DJ services, and that aspect of your situation I understand. But with regard to your general view of the "industry" I think you have way too many rationalizations.

And... you're still contradicting yourself. :sqconfused:

You tell me you don't care about other DJs, and your concern is to charge what you are worth. Then you devote an entire paragraph telling me you have a probelm with DJs who don't charge what they are worth. Which is it? Do you want to stick your nose in their business or not?

So, you found out Ferrell's message was just plain common sense, and you decided that you were underpriced. All good information.

Have you considered the possibility that there is a problem with what you (as in everyone, including Ferrell himself) did with that information?

You would think that DJs with this similar enlightenment would all be very happy. But most of you are miserable and full of complaints about everyone else.

So what I'm trying to tell you is it's not likely that the message is wrong - but the conclusions people (including Ferrell) are drawing from it are incomplete.

Food for thought.
 
So what I'm trying to tell you is it's not likely that the message is wrong - but the conclusions people (including Ferrell) are drawing from it are incomplete.
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No sarcasim, intended or implied... Honest straight forward question.

What would be a more complete conclusion?



*************
A yugo, is a yugo, and marketed as such.
A chevy, is a chevy, and marketed as such.
A saturn... Mercedes...

Notice in advertising, they do compare to other cars. Always with statements such as best leg room; best horse power; "in its class".

Now, take this "industry". Do dj's compare with a little truth in advertising? In each "class" of dj? or do we compare a Yugo to a mercedes and say they are the same because they are both cars with wheels.

There is a difference between "classes" of dj's. What they do, and how things are done.

Therein lies the problem. It's a very hazy shade of grey. Too many of us think we are a mercedes, just because we have wheels.
 
Proformance said:
You're too funny. Isn't universal diversity an oxymoron?

I know the economy is declining for DJ services, and that aspect of your situation I understand. But with regard to your general view of the "industry" I think you have way too many rationalizations.

And... you're still contradicting yourself. :sqconfused:

You tell me you don't care about other DJs, and your concern is to charge what you are worth. Then you devote an entire paragraph telling me you have a probelm with DJs who don't charge what they are worth. Which is it? Do you want to stick your nose in their business or not?

So, you found out Ferrell's message was just plain common sense, and you decided that you were underpriced. All good information.

Have you considered the possibility that there is a problem with what you (as in everyone, including Ferrell himself) did with that information?

You would think that DJs with this similar enlightenment would all be very happy. But most of you are miserable and full of complaints about everyone else.

So what I'm trying to tell you is it's not likely that the message is wrong - but the conclusions people (including Ferrell) are drawing from it are incomplete.

Food for thought.
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LOL! Yea, a bit of sloppy language on my part, I'll admit. By "universal diversity," I'm really talking about uniqueness. The best analogy to we DJs are bands. If a bride is calling around looking for a band, it's not always about price. If a band was a band was a band, that would be the deciding factor, wouldn't it? But it's not. Last weekend I was in Muskegon, MI, for a concert by INXS, one of my favorite '80s bands. A pleasant surprise was the opening act, a group called 4 Finger 5 (I think). Very unique sound. At the end of their set, they said, "After INXS, you're all invited to the [sumpin' sumpin'] bar to party with us until 2:00 AM!" And it made me think: could this bar have EVER afforded INXS? Wouldn't it cost a LOT more? Yet they're both BANDS -- hell, they're playing on the SAME STAGE!!! But a band isn't a band isn't a band...

Yet we DJs seem to struggle with the distinction. I was a DJ before INXS had their big breakout hit in '82, yet I still have to spend time educating potential clients about what sets me apart from my competition.

And no, I'm not contradicting myself when I said that I don't care what other DJs do, but if you were paying attention, it was more about their act than their business practices. Do I care if my competitors are ethical? Sure, to a degree. (And if they aren't, it simply makes the job of selling my own service easier!) My basic complaint is that they're employing BAD BUSINESS PRACTICES, and those bad practices are adversely effecting ME.

It's akin to the farmer who diverts a stream to better irrigate his crops, leaving farmers downstream with little or no water for theirs. Should I just say, "Oh well, that's life" and board-up my windows? Or do I raise a ruckus? Sorry, but before I'll accept the former I'm going to try the latter.

Lastly, I would say that nearly every conclusion ever drawn by human beings might be considered "incomplete." I wasn't an easy sell on the whole "worth" thing and took some pains to check on Ferrell's claims and conclusions before adopting them myself. Detractors can point to situations like the one in my state as an example of why it doesn't work, but this is misleading. One could just as easily point to someone like Peter Merry and, indeed, the whole California market as an example of why it DOES. The plain truth is that my market is the statistical flier -- the anomaly. It's an unusual situation, and the adverse effects on our industry are compounded by the non-business savvy / amateurs who, out of fear or ignorance, have abandoned good business practices. To me, that's the bottom line. I'm not out to "stick my nose" into anyone's business, but to be of as much help as I can so that they can grow their business and, at the same time, save my own.

And that is literally the fight I'm in. If things continue the way they are, I'll be out of business by this time next year. This is about survival, and you can damned well bet that I won't go quietly into the dark night.
 
My basic complaint is that they're employing BAD BUSINESS PRACTICES, and those bad practices are adversely effecting ME.
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Why isn't it affecting them?

That's where your supposition falls apart. You are the smarter one who has adopted the better practice - yet you're the one who suffers? Makes no sense.

It's akin to the farmer who diverts a stream to better irrigate his crops, leaving farmers downstream with little or no water for theirs. Should I just say, "Oh well, that's life" and board-up my windows? Or do I raise a ruckus? Sorry, but before I'll accept the former I'm going to try the latter.
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If your competitor's are not smart enough to charge what they are worth - that is more like the farmer who leaves his crops in the field to rot. You're essentially telling me that you farm with Miracle-Grow while the other guy uses Weed-Killer. How is that a disadvantage to you?

Diverting the water supply is not analogous to what you are telling me. Unlike the river, there is no stream of customers that is expected to flow your way.

If they all keep going to the other guy then doesn't that defeat the argument that he's too dumb a business man too know better?

I just keep seeing your argument as: "the other guy is too dumb to lose" !
 
What would be a more complete conclusion?
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If I told you I would have to kill you. :sqwink:

When you figure out what you would like to charge that is just step 1 in a multi-step process that might need to repeat itself several times before you hit the right combination of factors for succcess.

Try to backup and reconsider: what if you're that guy who just determined a sno-cone price of $40 ea? Is really enough just to be "worth it" ?
 
Proformance said:
Why isn't it affecting them?

That's where your supposition falls apart. You are the smarter one who has adopted the better practice - yet you're the one who suffers? Makes no sense.



If your competitor's are not smart enough to charge what they are worth - that is more like the farmer who leaves his crops in the field to rot. You're essentially telling me that you farm with Miracle-Grow while the other guy uses Weed-Killer. How is that a disadvantage to you?

Diverting the water supply is not analogous to what you are telling me. Unlike the river, there is no stream of customers that is expected to flow your way.

If they all keep going to the other guy then doesn't that defeat the argument that he's too dumb a business man too know better?

I just keep seeing your argument as: "the other guy is too dumb to lose" !
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I don't know if you're purposefully being obtuse or just totally missing my point. The practice they've adopted isn't "smart" or "better." I'll say this patiently one more time: these DJs are cutting themselves short and SUBSIDIZING THE EVENTS THEY PLAY using their DAY JOBS. They may, in fact, be running at a loss! If they are having fire sale prices, then logically they're going to have full calendars. Yet some of 'em are working three gigs or more to make what I do in one, and if we consider where wages were about three years ago, then they'd have to work another gig one!

When you calculate all the hours spent, plus overhead, and their extra "gravy job" brings in less extra cash than a job at White Castle, is that "smarter?" Oh, and a good many of 'em have gone out of business as well. They aren't immune and, because their profit margins are less, may in fact be MORE vulnerable. Trouble is, they're doing it to themselves and don't realize it. "Too dumb to lose?" Not on our planet! They'll just figure it out when they retire.

I'm a bit mystified by why you're arguing with me in the first place, to be honest. I have nothing to win here. I've stated the facts about my local economy, I described how I discovered why my calendar was suffering, talked to a good many colleagues for my article who were experiencing the same things -- so I know it's not just me -- and I've talked to other vendors who are also feeling the pinch. I'm not making this stuff up! The facts are the facts. Some DJs I've spoken to don't know any standard business practices. They don't have a business plan and some don't even keep correct books. There is a saying I have heard at many a seminar, both DJ and non: if you fail to plan, then you plan to fail.

I know you love to find fault with my analogies, so here's another one you can shred. I just hope you don't miss the point. You're out on a boat in a "no wake" zone. Along comes Joe Baja, speeding through causing a wake. That effects YOU. You're both boaters, doing the same thing, but one guy breaks the rules so you end-up with your drink in your lap. (Or worse -- dashed against the dock.) These guys zipping along lowballing and cutting themselves short will eventually wreck. My job is to stay afloat and out of their way while they self-destruct. And I plan on it.
 
I'm a bit mystified by why you're arguing with me in the first place, to be honest
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You can see it as an argument if you want, but neither of us is captive to any outcome, and there's nothing gained here by "winning" a debate.

I'm just pressing you on the areas I think you could gain from turning your looking glass around.

But you're not the only one reading this. There may very well be some younger DJs who read but don't post. Most threads also remain accessible for a long period of time. So either side of the "argument" may very well turn out to be of benefit to someone neither of us will ever know about.

Think of it as our little contribution to the "industry".
 
Pro...

The big problem I have in the "discussions"...

You continually say a conclusion, idea, or statement is false, then state your "side". But when asked to explain and give some extra info or supporting facts, you wont pitch.

That's like saying you can't hit my fastball. Therefore, why should I pitch to you??

I find it discouraging. On can not hit a fastball if one doesn't have the opportunity.
 
You continually say a conclusion, idea, or statement is false, But when asked to give some extra info or supporting facts, you wont pitch.
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So rather than provide a solid argument for a conclusion you prefer to just make a "leap" and wait to be proven wrong?

It's true. I am very likley to decline an invitation to do someone else's homework.
 
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