How do we change the luddite mentality?

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toqer said:
Ok here's what I don't get...

This thread is supposed to be "Computer DJ's" but there are about 10-15 non-pc DJ's here. What did you guys do, all pm each other "Oh toqer just called us old fashioned and luddites in this thread, lets all jump on it" I'm amazed this thread generated so much interest.

I've been workin on other stuff the last few weeks. Anyways i'm not going to waste my time on retorting the counterpoints of why CD's are so awesome. It's a waste to why I started this thread. I will list the advantages PC and computer based tech have over CD mixers.

Storage: Yes, it takes up way less space.

Internet: Get a sprint card and a napster/itunes/yahoo music subscription, you can't really run out to the music store for your precious vinyl or CD *WHILE* you're at a show now can you? You'll never say "I dont have that song" again.

Reliability: Only dummy's run unreliable computers, and it's no different for CD players. Treat your CD player like crap, it's ruined and has to be sent in to the mfgr. Treat your computer like crap (spyware, other doodoo), you can wipe it, reinstall drivers, replace faulty hardware and be back up in 4 hours. Have fun waitin for your CD player to get back from the repair shop.

Sound Quality: using high end pro level sound cards you can use your PC as a mixer that is really comparable to many high end mixers at a fraction of the cost.

Did I mention cost? Yeah, it's cheaper.

Enviromental Visulization: Ok greek speak here, and you're probably wondering WTF i'm talking about.. Here lemme find a picture.

107114205425-Spectrum-Laboratory-V2.7-b12.png

This is a nice spectrum analyzer I use called spectrumlab to help tune up a room, find feedback frequencies, and otherwise kill everything I don't need with software parametric EQ's.

Software: Since my last point mentioned software, i'm going to make it a point here. Your setup needs a new feature? Load some new software, or VST plugins, or whatever.

True integration: A computer can run lights, run audio, run effects, record timestamped video, run everything all from one neat little box. Tasks can be offloaded to other PC's by networking them together. Not just simple "I plug the XLR into the back". No i'm talkin when I get a 100hz bass hit, I want my fog machine to kick out smoke, when I hit a 4000hz high hat, I want strobes. Have fun changing presets on your old fashion light controller all night.

OK, now that i've made all these points (i can make more if you want to tempt me) i'm going to harp on proformance a bit, because you seem louder than everyone else.

I went to a NIN show in Cleveland Ohio 2 years ago. Sure, trent had some band stuff there, but most of his stuff was running from mac laptops. He had lights sequenced to video, vocal effects, fog machines, lasers, all kinds of stuff sequenced and helping him run his show via computer.

I dare you to call Trent uncool and unprofessional because he uses a PC. Please, do it, I fuggin dare you.

He did have one crash during the night, but crashes aren't the end of the world. If you have enough personality (Trent does) you just tell a joke to the crowd, wait for things to reboot, and be on your way again like nothing ever happened.

Did you know Fatboy slim got started using Atari ST computers? I guess he's a dork too. (In case you're too dense to recognize sarcasm, i'm using it now)

I bet 90% of these tracks you mix with vinyl were originally made on a computer. Maybe not old stuff like early Kraftwerk, they used sequencers, but i'm sure they use DAW's and computers now.

I'm done. I know I win this argument. Oh one last thing...

Some folks posted pics to stuff like Finalscratch. There's nothing wrong with using a tactile interface for mixing. Doesn't make you a luddite for wanting a tactile interface to a PC, just makes you normal like me :/
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I use a pc and yet I find your tone arrogant and offputting. For you guys who thanked Toqer, I wonder "why".
 
JT: Visually, "toqer" somehow reminds me of "roger" so I can't help typing "Toger". Odd how that works, eh?

Maybe some non-Luddite has a spell-checker for that?
 
I'm a computer DJ and your not so lets just leave it that way.
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Why not just "DJ" ? I think that's where we disagree JokersWild.

To put things into the perspective as Toquer has framed it - the question would be "are you still a DJ if we take the computer away?"
 
toqer said:
........ but being cool means doing your own thing and to hell with everyone else.

--toqer
He that is cool like a penguin.
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.....and hence, no reason to change the "Luddite" mentality. You done said it! It's up there!


And I was cool when you were fingerpainting.....:sqcool::sqlaugh:


"Ya never lose cool- you can only sell it off."
 
Fred Stewart said:
Brother Toqer,

Forgive me for my ignorance... but can you mix and jog tempo easily with a laptop? It's an honest question. :dontknow:
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Depends on what software you use and what type of tactile interface you have. There's many soft's/interfaces availiable. I use VDJ from Numark, but atm I don't have a decent midi interface for it. It's a resource hog (eats 128mb ram while idling) but I haven't had it crash yet. I only mentioned using a tactile interface because it does make things easier than point/click/navigating windows. Hang on, lemme post a pic of numarks VDJ interface..

numark_totalcontrol.png
 
toqer said:
Probably because I don't have to wear a feathered cap to cover my male pattern baldness.
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Preety darn close to the response I expected. And I have no male pattern baldness.
 
Proformance said:
Why not just "DJ" ? I think that's where we disagree JokersWild.

To put things into the perspective as Toquer has framed it - the question would be "are you still a DJ if we take the computer away?"
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Well of course I could DJ without the computer but why?

You come accross as if using a computer to DJ with makes you less of a DJ that's what I dissagree with.

///////////////////////////////////

I've been to toqer's karaoke bar and I've hosted his show his way.... plain and simple it works, it's fun and most of all the place is packed most nights. All the equipment needed to run the show without the computer are there as well... believe me he is well covered should he have a hard computer crash... but computers don't crash as often as some non-pc users would like to think... computers crash because of the users mostly, they download something stupid or change something or even stupidly delete something... but that's just software... computer hardware is no different than a CD player it's just chips and lasers.... and just as stable.

If it's a tactile issue you can always go with a midi interface option as toqer has posted about recently....

Oh and post a childish poke at toqer expect a childish poke back folks... just an observation.
 
You come accross as if using a computer to DJ with makes you less of a DJ that's what I dissagree with.
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Even Toqer admits he doesn't have a decent midi controller for his VDJ.

What should we make of that?
 
Bob make what you like of it again, your opinion has been stated there is no longer a need for your presence in this one either.
 
Proformance said:
Even Toqer admits he doesn't have a decent midi controller for his VDJ.

What should we make of that?
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Make whatever you want of it... I don't use a midi controller and the only reason his is not up to par by way of what a DJ might desire his does do what he needs it to do... which is control music level, mic level, EQ, and Reverb... and that's all he needs it to do.

BTW he's not using VDJ... or any sort of DJ software... he's using a combination of winamp and AutOKdj (a karaoke plug in he co-designed) and the EMU-1820 Patchmix software and interfaces with a midi keyboard from EMU into Reaper.

I'll be the first to admit it's a round about way of doing things in normal DJ terms but, it does what it needs to do without a whole lot of external equipment... the midi keyboard really isn't needed it just serves as a tactile interface that the other KJ's at the bar can use as well.

Personally I navigate via mouse and keyboard... but I do have a standard mixer and cd player in standby should both my pc's fail.. which is highly unlikely.

Bottom line for me anyway... Reel to Reel, Vinyl, 8-Track, Tape, CD, DAT, MD, or PC is not what makes a DJ, a DJ. In the end no matter what we choose as our playback medium its not what we use it's what we play and how we entertain with music that sets us apart as DJ's versus the average Joe with a home stereo. Let's face it DJ is a generic term for someone who entertains through music playback.
 
I must say this here as I have in another thread, If you cant find anything better to do here than to track down controversy and bring it with your two cents we dont want it. If Toqer posts, BOB stay out, plain and simple. IF its a Bose topic and you are on the bandwagon to bring down ones moneymaker stay out of it. There really isnt a need for it.
 
As far as tactile interfaces go, the Numark piece is ok. But its on the same level (in my book) as the Hercules.

In terms of scratching or beatmatching, it has latency issues. If you want to loop, you still have to nudge the beginning of the loop and nudge the end to get it just right. Its kind of a moot tool if you are trying to really get rid of the mouse to do real-time DJ'ing without touching the laptop. It just isn't quite there. Rane Serato is closer, but more expensive.

In the end, CD Players with a good COMPUTER built into them allows seemless looping without the use of nudging if you are quick with the reflexes.

Again, it seems this conversation keeps going into circles. I've been reading this whole thread and NASCAR comes to mind.

There is no perfect tool to do everything a performance DJ needs on a laptop with no tactile surfaces, just as there is no perfect time management playlist or total system control on a turntable.
 
Nice points nitchol. Yah, latency is still there, but CPU's are getting better faster stronger faster (cheaper). Dell had a special on a Dual Xeon Quad core (8 friggen cores) for $749 yesterday. I was so tempted to buy it. I expect within 2 years that a low end quad core CPU will cost $100.

JW: I do use VDJ a bit, Numark gave me a copy for free (with the expectation i'd use it for karaoke, but no rotation so yah right) I have VDJ's volume tied to a midi knob, and just twist it up between songs.

Let's try to get this thread back on track though... Here's my situation.

The owners of the club want me to talk the other KJ into using the PC. For the last 6 years she's refused to (on pretty much the same ground all the luddites that don't belong in this thread have posted) On her nights our original CDG's get misplaced, or they disappear never to be seen again.

They don't want to force it on her (we could just lock up the CDG's) because she's Japanese, and she caters to the older Japanese crowds that come in on her nights.

She's used every excuse in the book to not use a PC. I know for a fact she's PC literate, she uses one every day in her day job. She says its too hard, we even went as far as designing a special interface just for her (called ezmode) that's nothing more than dumb juke style (punch in the song #, it starts playing).

So with that story in mind, how do I go about changing her attitude?
 
Yes, 8 cores would be fun, but I'm almost certain we're at least 2 -4 years off from any DJ or Karaoke or perhaps VJ program that will utilize more than 2 cores. Save your money, Core 2 Duo is in. Read more about diminishing returns and benchmarks here.

Now to your manager...
How to change her mind?
Well, ask her what aspects of her business she manages with a computer.
Have her relate that to the business of entertainment and you've got it.
 
Toq,

For this other KJ who has used every excuse in the book not to use a computer, I think the only way to make her use a computer is for the owner force her too. Either use the computer or you don't have a job here, My CD-G walking off is costing me, etc.

Just the humble opinion of a "Luddite" that doesn't belong in this thread.

-Dan
 
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