One Of The Biggest Problems

[ahoustondj]

I have a theory now as to why so Many DJs are going powered speakers and hooking up straight from mixer to Speakers. They don't have a clue as to how to hook up equipment that includes processing etc.

Last night I dropped by to see what was going on with a new Sunday night production at a club where I sometimes DJ and do rentals. My friend the bartender introduced me to the promoter and I could tell he was having issues with the DJ. First, the DJ came only with his Laptop, two CD Players/controllers and a mixer. He was attempting to plug in to another guys two speakers, one powered and one passive (Dual 15's each) and an amp.

He was attempting to commit the most outrageous sin. Yep, you guessed it, he was trying to use a Patch cable backwards. Since he did not have the necessary cables it was going to be a complete mess. The guy had no clue what he was doing. He was attempting to use the patch cables left and right from the mixer to one side of the amp. (Backwards).
He was attempting to connect the one active speaker to the amp using the Common Terminals from Channel 1 and Channel 2. The amp was not in bridged mode. Had he done that, the amp would have short circuited.
He only had one cable coming from the Master Out, so he had that going to the Powered speaker.
He did not have the power cord to the powered speaker.

I had to shoo him away and hook up the system so it could play. Just play! It sounded terrible with no EQ or processing. I could not bear it so I got out of there. The promoter now wants to hire me to do Sundays. If he has the money, I have the time.
That guy calls himself a DJ. I wish guys will take the time to go take a short course in Basic Electronics from their Community College or something so that know what the Hell they are doing. That amplifier and speaker he was hooking up incorrectly would have been toast without my intervention.

 

[ahoustondj]

Riggers have to be certified
Lighting Designers have to be certified
Sound Engineers have to be certified
In some places, Wedding Coordinators and Event Planners have to be certified
Electricians have to be certified
Sigh....... I wish all DJs have to be certified.

 

[DJ PAUL]

I'm think'n ya gotta be kinda glad there are DJs like that out there. Got you a gig.


Paul

 

[SoftJock Rick]

Sigh....... I wish all DJs have to be certified.

I think many of them already are...

 

[Patrick]

Sigh....... I wish all DJs have to be certified.

(not trying to start a big argument here....but)

What would you like DJs to be certified as? Remember, we all use completely different sets of equipment...so if I use a powered mixer system, should I also have to be "certified" in a passive system....or vice versa? Should I have to be "certified" in lighting if I don't use it? and if I do use it, what type should I be required to be certified in? If I don't use DMX, should I have to learn about it just to get certified?

(I think you can kind of see where I am going here)

 

[ahoustondj]

(not trying to start a big argument here....but)

What would you like DJs to be certified as? Remember, we all use completely different sets of equipment...so if I use a powered mixer system, should I also have to be "certified" in a passive system....or vice versa? Should I have to be "certified" in lighting if I don't use it? and if I do use it, what type should I be required to be certified in? If I don't use DMX, should I have to learn about it just to get certified?

(I think you can kind of see where I am going here)

Patrick, what I mean by that is one should know at least the basics. You would be surprised with some of the things I see. DJs using 3 way T-Connectors from an AC outlet. Overloading a T-Bar with lights. Lights too close to drapes. Overloading a Power Strip with amps and other gear while the power strip itself is a three conductor 18 ga wire. Equipment, Amps and speakers wired improperly and the list goes on. At least they need to learn the Do not dos and basics.

Cheap gear is making this Industry attractive to new comers. Not because I like cooking means to say I should go an open a restaurant. Unfortunately many do just that and many fail.

 

[ittigger]

Some of this (one would think) is common sense. Common sense is an across the board 'sense'. There is no cert to test that. I also imagine that with all the 'shortcuts' we do see, that some of the 'certified' guys would still be 'shortcutting'.

 

[Fred Wright]

Well... years ago, before prosound gear makers started offering plug & play equipment, one actually needed some training in basic electricity to set up and run a sound system.

This is no longer an elite calling. What I find sad, many folks new to setting up PA (DJ or otherwise) have no idea of what they're getting themselves into. And yet sadder, everything you'll ever need to know is somewhere on the Internet, there for the taking.

 

[SoftJock Rick]

What would you like DJs to be certified as?

It's not all that hard to imagine Patrick, but it would require a committee to be set up to standardize the requirements.


For example:

When I decided to get my boat captain's license, I had to first prove a certain amount of hours on the water. They were fairly liberal in that regard, in that the documented hours had to prove time on a boat, not necessarily driving said boats. The reasoning for that is simple: after a certain amount of time on a regular basis, you develop what we call sea legs -- you've probably fallen off the boat a few times, and also picked people out of the water who have done so as well.

Then you go to school -- I went to Sea School.

Then you have to get into the technical aspects:

You have to learn how to navigate, tie knots, first aid, CPR, firefighting. You even learn what is going to happen if a yellow dye marker comes up under your boat (get outta there fast).

Then you take a long test (all day thing).


I think the same could probably be applied to the DJ world, but first there has to be a committee to determine what the standards are. Instead of making knots in rope, you need to know how to cable for example.

The problem is putting a committee together, since everybody wants to be the boss in the DJ world, and the egos abound...

 

[MtownDJ]

I have a theory now as to why so Many DJs are going powered speakers and hooking up straight from mixer to Speakers. They don't have a clue as to how to hook up equipment that includes processing etc.

Last night I dropped by to see what was going on with a new Sunday night production at a club where I sometimes DJ and do rentals. My friend the bartender introduced me to the promoter and I could tell he was having issues with the DJ. First, the DJ came only with his Laptop, two CD Players/controllers and a mixer. He was attempting to plug in to another guys two speakers, one powered and one passive (Dual 15's each) and an amp.

He was attempting to commit the most outrageous sin. Yep, you guessed it, he was trying to use a Patch cable backwards. Since he did not have the necessary cables it was going to be a complete mess. The guy had no clue what he was doing. He was attempting to use the patch cables left and right from the mixer to one side of the amp. (Backwards).
He was attempting to connect the one active speaker to the amp using the Common Terminals from Channel 1 and Channel 2. The amp was not in bridged mode. Had he done that, the amp would have short circuited.
He only had one cable coming from the Master Out, so he had that going to the Powered speaker.
He did not have the power cord to the powered speaker.

I had to shoo him away and hook up the system so it could play. Just play! It sounded terrible with no EQ or processing. I could not bear it so I got out of there. The promoter now wants to hire me to do Sundays. If he has the money, I have the time.
That guy calls himself a DJ. I wish guys will take the time to go take a short course in Basic Electronics from their Community College or something so that know what the Hell they are doing. That amplifier and speaker he was hooking up incorrectly would have been toast without my intervention.

I'm going to disagree with you on this. There are advantages and disadvantages to active speaker systems. The advantages come in the form of ease of setup, lack of a need for outboard processing for the most part, portability, and redundancy. If your amp dies while driving a passive system, you're screwed. If you're using powered tops and bottoms, if a unit goes out, you can still function.

The disadvantages are weight, repairs are more costly, and there's not much in the way of upward expansion except by buying more active units.

I'm going the active route simply because it allows me to maximize the small space i have for gear transportation with everything i need. If only need a little, I only have to carry a small kit. It's what works for me. If i need a larger kit than what i already have, i will usually rent a larger system. I don't skimp on my equipment, I just found what works for me.

Yes, it's true that active systems allow people with no electronics knowledge to get in the game, but if you don't have the sound reinforcement basics in the first place, you shouldn't be in this game.

Also, when it comes to certifications, that's an entirely different thing. Certifications mean nothing if there isn't the experience behind them.

 

[eezee]

A lot of club DJs are not required to bring sound. They bring their Decks/Controller and their laptop. Typically, there is a serato box pre installed with 2 decks or turntables. The promoted should have done due dilligence in finding out if the DJ was aware of the situation.

Typically a club should have their act together and just have 2 XLR cables ready to plug in for a quck swap for the next DJ.

Also, in terms of not having processing, again, was the DJ supposed to bring sound? Sounds like the club effed up again.

Its a club, not a mobile gig. DJs dont setup sound at clubs. They just walk in , plug in and play music.

 

[ahoustondj]

A lot of club DJs are not required to bring sound. They bring their Decks/Controller and their laptop. Typically, there is a serato box pre installed with 2 decks or turntables. The promoted should have done due dilligence in finding out if the DJ was aware of the situation.

Typically a club should have their act together and just have 2 XLR cables ready to plug in for a quck swap for the next DJ.

Also, in terms of not having processing, again, was the DJ supposed to bring sound? Sounds like the club effed up again.

Its a club, not a mobile gig. DJs dont setup sound at clubs. They just walk in , plug in and play music.

This is not the Club's fault. The Club rents the space just as a venue does. The Club makes its money from the $$$$$ spent at the bar less a small percentage to the promoter. The promoter is responsible for attendance, performers, security and makes his money from the Door Cover Charge and the small percentage of the bar sales.
Some of the promoters themselves are clueless. They too have wannabees in their category of entertainment. I pity any of the live entertainers who came on for "Open Mike" last night. Even there, wannabees exist, so even them don't know better.

 

[Patrick]

It's not all that hard to imagine Patrick, but it would require a committee to be set up to standardize the requirements.


For example:

When I decided to get my boat captain's license, I had to first prove a certain amount of hours on the water. They were fairly liberal in that regard, in that the documented hours had to prove time on a boat, not necessarily driving said boats. The reasoning for that is simple: after a certain amount of time on a regular basis, you develop what we call sea legs -- you've probably fallen off the boat a few times, and also picked people out of the water who have done so as well.

Then you go to school -- I went to Sea School.

Then you have to get into the technical aspects:

You have to learn how to navigate, tie knots, first aid, CPR, firefighting. You even learn what is going to happen if a yellow dye marker comes up under your boat (get outta there fast).

Then you take a long test (all day thing).


I think the same could probably be applied to the DJ world, but first there has to be a committee to determine what the standards are. Instead of making knots in rope, you need to know how to cable for example.

The problem is putting a committee together, since everybody wants to be the boss in the DJ world, and the egos abound...

But Rick, once again I will ask: what should every person be certified in? We offer a wide range of services, from DJing, to DJing with lighting, to photography to videography to slideshow creation. And we use a combination of passive and active systems (depending on the venue). So should someone who is in my same market who only does DJing with no lighting be required to be certified in everything we do in order to play in the venues we do? Or should be only be required to be certified in what they do?

And who is going to check the certification? I can tell you right now (even though we do have it), I have never ONCE in the almost 20 years I have been doing this been ask to show proof of liability insurance at any venue, so do you really think the venues are going to be bothered with checking with certification?

This idea (which seems to be floated on all the boards at least a couple times a year) is nothing more than a select group of "I know more than everyone else" DJs wanting to force what they believe is right down everyone else's throat

(and that was NOT directed at anyone specific on this board)

 

[ittigger]

I'm going to disagree with you on this. There are advantages and disadvantages to active speaker systems. The advantages come in the form of ease of setup, lack of a need for outboard processing for the most part, portability, and redundancy. If your amp dies while driving a passive system, you're screwed. If you're using powered tops and bottoms, if a unit goes out, you can still function.

The disadvantages are weight, repairs are more costly, and there's not much in the way of upward expansion except by buying more active units.

I'm going the active route simply because it allows me to maximize the small space i have for gear transportation with everything i need. If only need a little, I only have to carry a small kit. It's what works for me. If i need a larger kit than what i already have, i will usually rent a larger system. I don't skimp on my equipment, I just found what works for me.

Yes, it's true that active systems allow people with no electronics knowledge to get in the game, but if you don't have the sound reinforcement basics in the first place, you shouldn't be in this game.

I agree. I use both active and passive systems depending on the need. I don't think one's better than the other and I run redundancy in either case. I also don't feel that it's because 'They don't have a clue as to how to hook up equipment that includes processing etc'. I use what I need when I need it.

Also, when it comes to certifications, that's an entirely different thing. Certifications mean nothing if there isn't the experience behind them.

Absolutely 100% agree! Take for example, all of our Microsoft Certified people. There are tons of these 'certified' people that have no frickin' idea how to actually work on what they're certified on. If not certified or administered properly, this 'cert' would fall into the very same category. MS cert means very little without the experience.

 

[ahoustondj]

I'm going to disagree with you on this. There are advantages and disadvantages to active speaker systems. That is true. The advantages come in the form of ease of setup, Not necessarily unless you are one of the DJs who wear speakers like headphones. lack of a need for outboard processing for the most part, Not true. Each venue has acoustical challenges and no one system is a do it all for every venue. portability, and redundancy. This is why they have racks on wheels. If your amp dies while driving a passive system, you're screwed. No you are not, there are many other options to keep the show goping IF YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO. If you're using powered tops and bottoms, if a unit goes out, you can still function. Not saying that there isn't, but I am curious as to how YOU would do it. Tell me how?

The disadvantages are weight, Racks on wheels, casters on speakers, a van with a ramp eliminates the need for lifting. repairs are more costly, Its always more costly to repair a Mercedes than a Yugo, even though there are exceptions depending on the problem. and there's not much in the way of upward expansion except by buying more active units. Apparantly you have never heard of multi frequency integrated systems.

I'm going the active route simply because it allows me to maximize the small space i have for gear transportation with everything i need. A car is for personal use. Lots of pro DJs have dedicated vehicles for professional use. They also pay Commercial Insurance on those vehicles. If only need a little, I only have to carry a small kit. It's what works for me. If i need a larger kit than what i already have, i will usually rent a larger system. I don't skimp on my equipment, I just found what works for me. Thats good for you but a .22 caliber can kill a rabbit but a 500 Magnum can do more damage. They are both guns. Which would you rather have if a burglar enters your home?

Yes, it's true that active systems allow people with no electronics knowledge to get in the game, but if you don't have the sound reinforcement basics in the first place, you shouldn't be in this game. Go tell that to some of the wannabees.

Also, when it comes to certifications, that's an entirely different thing. Certifications mean nothing if there isn't the experience behind them. And foolhardy experience can cause many grief.

See answers/comments above in RED

 

[ahoustondj]

But Rick, once again I will ask: what should every person be certified in? We offer a wide range of services, from DJing, to DJing with lighting, to photography to videography to slideshow creation. And we use a combination of passive and active systems (depending on the venue). So should someone who is in my same market who only does DJing with no lighting be required to be certified in everything we do in order to play in the venues we do? Or should be only be required to be certified in what they do?

And who is going to check the certification? I can tell you right now (even though we do have it), I have never ONCE in the almost 20 years I have been doing this been ask to show proof of liability insurance at any venue, so do you really think the venues are going to be bothered with checking with certification?

This idea (which seems to be floated on all the boards at least a couple times a year) is nothing more than a select group of "I know more than everyone else" DJs wanting to force what they believe is right down everyone else's throat

(and that was NOT directed at anyone specific on this board)

Why do you think some venues ask for Certificates of Insurance? It is to separate those who have been serious enough about their business to learn and continue to learn their craft and do it in a safe and correct way. They know that it is only a matter of time that someone is going to cause distress and they don't want to be held liable for someone elses stupidity.
To me Audio and Lighting should be two separate entities. An electrical circuit can only handle the load for which it was wired/designed. To some, as long as an outlet is available they feel anything can be plugged into it. How many even own a multimeter or one of these http://www.amazon.com/P3-International-P4400-Electricity-Monitor/dp/tags-on-product/B00009MDBU Every DJ should have one of these but many are too cheap to even spend the necessary $20.00
There are many people who go out and do plumbing and electrical work for other people without a valid license, does that mean it is ok or they should abolish licenses or training?
I do not fault someone for coming into any industry as a rookie. I do fault them for trying to take shortcuts without knowing what they are doing. I fault them for refusing to learn the proper way by giving the excuse that "This is what works for me". I have noticed over the years that you have picked up and implemented a lot of the suggestions given to you and that is good. You have the pride to excel and it shows in your gig report posts and pics. You are one of the few exceptions.

 

[SoftJock Rick]

But Rick, once again I will ask: what should every person be certified in?

Fair enough question Patrick -- and I have no great answer to it...

But again, as an analogy/model, I will use the captain's license:

There are various types of licenses, each allowing the accredited captain certain rights and privileges on how many people they can carry, tonnage, where they can captain, etc.



As I've said many times, I don't think DJ'ing really requires any such thing -- but it is plausible, and may at some point come to fruition...

I don't believe people in the industry can ever come to a common decision -- so if it were to happen, I believe the people writing the standards should be outside the industry. When congressional committees meet for example, they bring in testimony from people within the industry, and from without. They then set certain standards, and legislation is completed.

So, it is doable. Whether or not we want it done, is another can of beans...

 

[ittigger]

I'm going to disagree with you on this. There are advantages and disadvantages to active speaker systems. [That is true]. The advantages come in the form of ease of setup, [Not necessarily unless you are one of the DJs who wear speakers like headphones] I see the setup pretty similar in either case (providing you're trying to get the same result). . lack of a need for outboard processing for the most part, [Not true. Each venue has acoustical challenges and no one system is a do it all for every venue.] portability, and redundancy. [This is why they have racks on wheels] As you know Canute - Racks are generally on wheels because of their weight - having said that, there may be areas where you cannot get a rack into.. If your amp dies while driving a passive system, you're screwed. [No you are not, there are many other options to keep the show going IF YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO] True - and the same logic applies to active systems. If you're using powered tops and bottoms, if a unit goes out, you can still function. [Not saying that there isn't, but I am curious as to how YOU would do it]. Tell me how?


The disadvantages are weight, [Racks on wheels, casters on speakers, a van with a ramp eliminates the need for lifting.] While in a perfect world, it would be ideal for all DJ's to have this, they don't. They should have a vehicle that's capable of moving the proper equipment to the site. As stated previously, a 15 passenger van could not move whose ever equipment it was. repairs are more costly, [Its always more costly to repair a Mercedes than a Yugo, even though there are exceptions depending on the problem.] and there's not much in the way of upward expansion except by buying more active units. [Apparantly you have never heard of multi frequency integrated systems.]

I'm going the active route simply because it allows me to maximize the small space i have for gear transportation with everything i need. [A car is for personal use. Lots of pro DJs have dedicated vehicles for professional use. They also pay Commercial Insurance on those vehicles.]I believe depending on location, you may not need commercial insurance If only need a little, I only have to carry a small kit. It's what works for me. If i need a larger kit than what i already have, i will usually rent a larger system. I don't skimp on my equipment, I just found what works for me. [Thats good for you but a .22 caliber can kill a rabbit but a 500 Magnum can do more damage. They are both guns. Which would you rather have if a burglar enters your home?]And this would be comparable to the music world how? Does your system power a small gym as well as a convention center or arena? From what I know of you, you visit the location to see what equipment is necessary for the job. Don't doubt that others are too.

Yes, it's true that active systems allow people with no electronics knowledge to get in the game, but if you don't have the sound reinforcement basics in the first place, you shouldn't be in this game. [Go tell that to some of the wannabees.]Wannabees - read that.

Also, when it comes to certifications, that's an entirely different thing. Certifications mean nothing if there isn't the experience behind them. [And foolhardy experience can cause many grief.]True

See Canute's answers/comments above in RED

See my answers/comments above in Blue

 

[Patrick]

Houston.....my point with the insurance was that venues would be the only ones who would actually checking the certification. And if they are not bothering to check on something which would directly affect them....why would they check on something that is even less important to them?

Should everyone have a basic understanding of circuitry and power? Absolutely....should everyone have a basic understanding of how sound works? Yep....but regulation and micromanaging that knowledge is not something I will ever be in favor of.

 

[ittigger]

Why do you think some venues ask for Certificates of Insurance? It is to separate those who have been serious enough about their business to learn and continue to learn their craft and do it in a safe and correct way. They know that it is only a matter of time that someone is going to cause distress and they don't want to be held liable for someone elses stupidity.
To me Audio and Lighting should be two separate entities. An electrical circuit can only handle the load for which it was wired/designed. To some, as long as an outlet is available they feel anything can be plugged into it. How many even own a multimeter or one of these http://www.amazon.com/P3-International-P4400-Electricity-Monitor/dp/tags-on-product/B00009MDBU Every DJ should have one of these but many are too cheap to even spend the necessary $20.00
There are many people who go out and do plumbing and electrical work for other people without a valid license, does that mean it is ok or they should abolish licenses or training?
I do not fault someone for coming into any industry as a rookie. I do fault them for trying to take shortcuts without knowing what they are doing. I fault them for refusing to learn the proper way by giving the excuse that "This is what works for me". I have noticed over the years that you have picked up and implemented a lot of the suggestions given to you and that is good. You have the pride to excel and it shows in your gig report posts and pics. You are one of the few exceptions.

Canute, if you read his message - in 20 years, he's NEVER been asked for it. That negates the logic of 'Why do you think some venues ask for Certificates of Insurance? It is to separate those who have been serious enough about their business to learn and continue to learn their craft and do it in a safe and correct way.' I'm right behind him in that in 24 years, I've been asked for it once and it was at a historical mansion. Had nothing to do with being experienced or not. Also, a plumber in a company having a license is enough for them to say they're 'licensed'. Does that mean a licensed guy is working on your stuff? Absolutely not. Same with other cert's and licenses. For a company to be considered MS certified, they generally need one guy certified. Are you getting that guy working on your machine? Highly doubt it.

I agree with the rest of your statement. I also believe that everyone should be doing it the right way and not shortcutting. Look how long it took most of us to get where we are - and we learned alot along the way.