What is the deal with Musicians plugging into your PA?

Bill Kexel said:

We are only talking about patching in a keyboard, acoustic guitar, Etc. for 1 or 2 songs & mics during the ceremony or 1 song during the reception. (played at low/med level) I'm not running sound for Van Halen.

I have no desire to invest into "band" equipment.
Heck...most of the time, all they need to do is plug the guitar, Etc. into a powered speaker...DONE! No lugging extra stuff. As far as charging them? who? ...the clients are already paying me about $265 per hr.

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What if they THINK they're Van Halen, and deserve to be treated as such, for a single three minute performance? What if they want you to be ready an hour earlier than you would otherwise be, so they can "rehearse"? What if they want processing and you don't have any (at a wedding, I don't), or a monitor speaker so they can hear themselves sing for all three minutes?

Sounds To Go said:

thank for pointing out the obvious. Now let's move on. :tritongue:

Specific to the OP, no "additional" or "specialized" equipment (beyond what most of us as professional mobile providers should have "back at home base") is needed to accomplish said task sufficiently well, and it is simply a matter of personal choice in each case whether plugging in a few additional XLR cables or providing another mic on a stand warrants a charge.

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I disagree. You cannot BE too obvious in this kind of situation, or you run the risk of problems.

For example: YOUR definition of what "guitar amp" means may differ from theirs. Just as: "DJ system" has many different definitions, even among those who are in this business (as evidenced in this thread!)

Steve Sharp said:

What if they THINK they're Van Halen, and deserve to be treated as such, for a single three minute performance?

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Not going to happen, and I will tell them that.

Steve Sharp said:

What if they want you to be ready an hour earlier than you would otherwise be, so they can "rehearse"?

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Given that I am a professional, and a musician myself, I would expect no less than to REQUIRE them MYSELF to be there early for a sound check - because as JT said, it's my arse on the line. You should not agree to run supplementary sound or reinforcement if you are NOT doing a sound check - that would reek of amateur hour.

Knowing that I would want this, I would not agree to to do such sound reinforcement free OR paid without knowing ahead of time this would be included, and I would tell them how much time is needed on my side to accommodate said sound check and when they should show up to do it.

THAT is what I "include" for free... ME dictating what IS and is NOT an otion and when and HOW things happen. Perhaps that is the vital peice that was missing in previous posts. Clients and performers dictate nothing of me without a price tag associated with it. I know how long I need to run a mic in a boom for three singers and hook a DI for a guitar to a line input and set my levels, and thats what they get. No more, no less.

Steve Sharp said:

What if they want processing and you don't have any (at a wedding, I don't), or a monitor speaker so they can hear themselves sing for all three minutes?

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Not going to happen, and I will tell them that.

Steve Sharp said:

YOUR definition of what "guitar amp" means may differ from theirs.

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Any guitar amp they are using will have either a line out and or a headphone jack which is what will be used for plug-in, so the make/model/size/etc doesn't matter. And if it sounds like crap I'm not going to plug it in or use it, and they can DI into my board.

Again, and to clarify - because I am willing to go above and beyond doesn't mean it is a blank check, and this is made known up-front. As a matter of fact, doing these kinds of little things for free (if you're somewhat bright about it) can actually help you KEEP them from getting out of hand because it gets spun from the beginning as you going above and beyond and there is the sense of you doing a favor and them just being grateful for it that keeps them from trying to take things too far. Hint: "Give a bit away" and YOU have control over what, when, where, and how. CHARGE for it, then guess what: You have a boss and the potential for higher expectations, a sense of entitlement, and a general feeling on their part that you are "owned."

:tricool:

Sounds To Go said:

Given that I am a professional, and a musician myself, I would expect no less than to REQUIRE them MYSELF to be there early for a sound check - because as JT said, it's my arse on the line. You should not agree to run supplementary sound or reinforcement if you are NOT doing a sound check - that would reek of amateur hour.

Knowing that I would want this, I would not agree to to do such sound reinforcement free OR paid without knowing ahead of time this would be included, and I would tell them how much time is needed on my side to accommodate said sound check and when they should show up to do it.

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If (as in this case) you were told about it AFTER a more standard agreement (sound checking for two lavs doesn't take as long as two lavs PLUS three vocalists, does it?), what would you do?

Sounds To Go said:

Any guitar amp they are using will have either a line out and or a headphone jack which is what will be used for plug-in, so the make/model/size/etc doesn't matter. And if it sounds like crap I'm not going to plug it in or use it, and they can DI into my board.

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What if the amp they're used to has adjustable effects that you don't have and they think that "guitar amp" means you have this? Shouldn't that be part of the communication process?

Sounds To Go said:

Again, and to clarify - because I am willing to go above and beyond doesn't mean it is a blank check, and this is made known up-front. As a matter of fact, doing these kinds of little things for free (if you're somewhat bright about it) can actually help you KEEP them from getting out of hand because it gets spun from the beginning as you going above and beyond and there is the sense of you doing a favor and them just being grateful for it that keeps them from trying to take things too far. Hint: "Give a bit away" and YOU have control over what, when, where, and how. CHARGE for it, then guess what: You have a boss and the potential for higher expectations and a sense of entitlement that you are "owned."

Sit on that one for a bit and it might just be a little empowering. :tricool:

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It's an art and a fine line, but a very good point you bring up.

I have no desire to invest into, store, lug around music stands & other crap unless I can charge extra for it. (or if there is enough demand for it) In some cases you don't know what is needed until a couple days before the event....or at the event.

I recently had a wedding ceremony where the bride's brother was going to play the keyboard & wanted it to run thru my mixer. I had requested weeks beforehand to the client on several occasions to find out what type of audio output they had on the keyboard. I didn't find out until I was at the gig!
Luckily I carry a variety of cables & patchcords.

I had a beach wedding (reception in a nearby building, upstairs) where, after performing acoustic guitar and singing at his sister's wedding, a groomsman wanted to know if I could bring his guitar up to the banquet room with me.

Sure, let me haul YOUR stuff, in addition to all of mine.

I have no problem what soever accommodating last minute requests if they happen. As mentioned by others, if additional equipment or time is required, there will be an extra charge. No biggie.

My mixer has hundreds of pre-programmed settings already for specific brands and models of instruments and mics as well as generic settings for accoustic guitar, bass guitar, keyboards, handheld mics etc. that can be dialed up in seconds.

So, someone plugging into my system to play a few songs at the ceremony is NO problem at all. I have yet to run into a situation where more time was involved. A few extra mics has been about it...maybe. Got rave reviews from people that have plugged in.

I pride myself on being easy to work with, and as accommodating as I can be. That is simply not a big deal to me, and little to no extra work.

Steve Sharp said:

If (as in this case) you were told about it AFTER a more standard agreement (sound checking for two lavs doesn't take as long as two lavs PLUS three vocalists, does it?), what would you do?

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As all you're adding (all I would be adding) for said three vocalists is a single mic (appropriate pickup pattern of course) on a boom stand and running it to my board, I would simply include it and allow an additional mins or so for said hookup and soundchecking. When I say soundchecking that doesn't mean allowing them an extra half-hr to "warm up" by running through their selections in their entirety multiple times on a live mic.

Only two things need to be established:

positioning/proximity of voicalists to mic and overall level. Neither of which are any skin off my teeth as far as setup time, but again, the point at which we start to charge is a personal decision and I would never tell someone they are "wrong" to want to charge for it any more than they have no real grounds to tell me I'm "wrong" not to. Whatever floats yer boat.

Steve Sharp said:

What if the amp they're used to has adjustable effects that you don't have and they think that "guitar amp" means you have this? Shouldn't that be part of the communication process?

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Again, they would need to make due with what is available. They would be heard, and I doubt anyone present at the ceremony is going to say "HEY! Isn't that original composition supposed to have 37 msec of delay and a slight modulation on the chorus? What kind of dj IS this?!?!?!"

I think we're all equally well understood and even beaten to death at this point, and I apologize (for the sake of brevity) for my part in that. I'll sum up my participation with the following:

All I have really seen offered are two main (and VALID) points:

1) Give some people an inch, and they will try to take a mile.
2) Lack of effective and proactive communication can cause issues.

To these, I posit that if any of us are ever burned on either of these points, the "fault" is squarely our own and a result of our OWN short comings because we are failing to take into account that yes, people are people.

And at the end of the day to those two points above:

1) We are either able as a business owner and service provider to set and manage client expectations of our clients, and other performers and vendors we work with, or we are not.

2) We can either communicate effectively and proactively, or we can not.

When a client comes to us after the fact with changes, and tries to sneak more in, we are all at liberty to say how much we are (or are NOT) willing or able to accommodate their needs or wishes without incurring additional charge, and thats a line for us all to make.

If we do decide out of the kindness of our hearts to try to accommodate them and they then try to milk that kindness for more, then circle back to failure #1 on YOUR part as a provider to tell them clearly what you are and are not able or willing to do without additional charge.

Either way, it comes back to us. People are people - that's not going to change. The question is how adept are we at communicating with and managing expectations with our clients.

Steve Sharp said:

I had a beach wedding (reception in a nearby building, upstairs) where, after performing acoustic guitar and singing at his sister's wedding, a groomsman wanted to know if I could bring his guitar up to the banquet room with me.

Sure, let me haul YOUR stuff, in addition to all of mine.

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I don't know (surprise surprise) if I would have an issue with this if it was a member of the party. Anyone else, hell no.

At that last guitarified wedding I did, I supplied the stand for his acoustic, and after I tore down my stuff I took it upon myself to unplug his DI and pedals and put his guitar back in its case even though I didn't pick up my stand from the lawn until I was driving out of the venue later that night. Again, being a musician myself maybe I'm too paranoid about it. There are groundsmen working the venues, and who knows - maybe the chance that "since the ceremony is done and everyone is inside for the night" they would decide to turn on the sprinklers.

I have an auto-mix of Van Craven on piano playing in the reception for cocktail hr, what skin off my teeth is it to do that for him? He didin't even ask... again it was of my own accord.

Again, I wouldn't say either of us is "wrong," just wired differently I guess.

The minute you settle for less than you deserve, you get even less than you settled for. ~ Maureen Dowd

Sounds To Go said:

Again, and to clarify - because I am willing to go above and beyond doesn't mean it is a blank check, and this is made known up-front. As a matter of fact, doing these kinds of little things for free (if you're somewhat bright about it) can actually help you KEEP them from getting out of hand because it gets spun from the beginning as you going above and beyond and there is the sense of you doing a favor and them just being grateful for it that keeps them from trying to take things too far. Hint: "Give a bit away" and YOU have control over what, when, where, and how. CHARGE for it, then guess what: You have a boss and the potential for higher expectations, a sense of entitlement, and a general feeling on their part that you are "owned."

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For any such submissive feelings to have any validity or strength, they have to be self imposed.

Fair and full compensation for our professional service bestows no "ownership" to the recipient. But some are, as you correctly say, "just wired differently, I guess."

Sounds To Go said:

I don't know (surprise surprise) if I would have an issue with this if it was a member of the party. Anyone else, hell no.

At that last guitarified wedding I did, I supplied the stand for his acoustic, and after I tore down my stuff I took it upon myself to unplug his DI and pedals and put his guitar back in its case even though I didn't pick up my stand from the lawn until I was driving out of the venue later that night. Again, being a musician myself maybe I'm too paranoid about it. ...

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Opps, sorry Mr. Guitar owner but I accidentally dropped your instrument. However, it was being done out of the kindness of my heart, going above and beyond, so I'm sure you won't expect me to pay for the damage.

P.S. No one appreciates, acknowledges, and practices going above and beyond more than I, but doing so does not preclude being compensated. Not all good deeds are charitable.

djrox said:

For any such submissive feelings to have any validity or strength, they have to be self imposed.

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There's nothing submissive about it. A conscious choice is made in every case as to whether or not requests can or will be accommodated, and the degree and or manner in which they will be accommodated. It's rather a position of strength as I said earlier. Do not mistake what I am talking about for submissiveness. I am accomplishing far more with this "act of submission" (as you call it) - in the form of good will, a satisfied client, great future referral source, and quite often a hefty gratuity - than they are by "pulling a fast one on the dj." There is more to be had from each client (if you're smart, reasonably good, and/or give a chit) than the dollar amount on their initial contract and any subsequent addendum for extras.

Don't be so quick to conflate the strategic use of a mic or two and ten minutes of one's time with weakness. Things aren't as black and white as you assume, nor is all compensation strictly monetary in nature. :triwink:

djrox said:

Fair and full compensated for our professional service bestows no "ownership" to the recipient.

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Of course it does - unless of course you're talking to a service provider who has convinced himself he is no longer "employed" but is rather somehow and by some contortion of reason deeming himself as "doing the client a favor" merely by entering into an agreement with them... A mindset that is common in our industry, as unfortunate as it is.

djrox said:

Opps, sorry Mr. Guitar owner but I accidentally dropped your instrument. However, it was being done out of the kindness of my heart, going above and beyond, so I'm sure you won't expect me to pay for the damage.

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Valid enough. Well played.

djrox said:

P.S. No one appreciates, acknowledges, and practices going above and beyond more than I

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Really? See below...

djrox said:

but doing so does not preclude being compensated.

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Of course it does because at the point you are compensated it is no longer "above and beyond" at all - it's tit-for-tat - money rendered for services received, and if you call anything of the sort "going above and beyond" you are merely mangling definitions for the purpose of boosting your own ego. :triwink:

djrox said:

Not all good deeds are charitable.

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Yes they are. The minute they aren't, and they are "suitably compensated," there is no need - or even room - for such subjective value labels as "good deeds" since everything is now just services rendered. The particular disposition behind the act is no longer altruistic and hence justifiably labeled as "good" at all. If you think you are doing "good deeds" while you're depositing the check for them, you're simply back to that whole "stroking one's ego" thing again.

Sounds To Go said:

There's nothing submissive about it. A conscious choice is made in every case as to whether or not requests can or will be accommodated, and the degree and or manner in which they will be accommodated. It's rather a position of strength as I said earlier. Do not mistake what I am talking about for submissiveness. I am accomplishing far more with this "act of submission" (as you call it) - in the form of good will, a satisfied client, great future referral source, and quite often a hefty gratuity - than they are by "pulling a fast one on the dj." There is more to be had from each client (if you're smart, reasonably good, and/or give a chit) than the dollar amount on their initial contract and any subsequent addendum for extras.

Don't be so quick to conflate the strategic use of a mic or two and ten minutes of my time with weakness. Things aren't as black and white as you assume. :triwink:



Of course it does - unless of course you're talking to a service provider who has convinced himself he is no longer "employed" but is rather somehow and by some contortion on reason deeming himself as "doing the client a favor" merely by entering into an agreement with them... Something of a common thread with many in our industry, as unfortunate as it is.
...
Really? See below...

Of course it does because at the point you are compensated it is no longer "above and beyond" at all - it's tit-for-tat - money rendered for services received, and if you call anything of the sort "going above and beyond" you are merely mangling definitions for the purpose of boosting your own ego. :triwink:

But the minute they aren't, and they are "suitably compensated," there is no need - or even room - for such subjective value labels as "good deeds" since everything is now just services rendered. If you think you are doing "good deeds" while you're depositing the check for them, you're simply back to that whole stroking one's ego thing again.

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Now you have misdirected, accidentally I hope, your responses and changed the parameters of the request in the OP's original post.

The submission I clearly referred to was that of being "owned." Your term, not mine.

The original subject request was not for "a mic or two and ten minutes of time" but for the OP to facilitate, with no additional compensation or consideration, the performance of live musicians. Perhaps the OP does not want to half-ass it and have that reflect on his service. But YMMV.

Personal favors are solely for my loved ones and personal friends. Legitimate charity is for the needy not the wanty.

None of my non-charity clients are being favored in my contracts, they are being provided a service in exchange for compensation. Not a scintilla of ownership or ego stroking required. They don't own me nor I them. It is a financial relationship, not a love affair. The relationship is finite, contractually defined, and mutually beneficial. I simply do not desire or choose to enter relationships where mutual respect and benefit are secondary.

Despite that, I have been commended, on numerous occasions, by paying clients mind you, for going above and beyond. I personally cherish those accolades with as much appreciation as any fee I require.

There is nothing wrong with stating the obvious either. IF you don't have that gear, say so. if you don't have a sound board that will do that, say that too.

Dear<insert Brides name here>

I unfortunately do not have possesion of or know anyone who has a guitar amp, mic stands or extra vocal mics. I have a spare that I use, in addition to mine should it fail.

Following are the names of rental companies who can probably deliver and hook up a suitable amp and provide stands mics and cables once the musicians get in contact with them.

I do have a sound board that will accommodate the vocals, and if your musicians will bring their microphones, stands and wires to see me in advance, so we can make sure everything works, having them plug into my board should be no problem.

Sincerely,
<insert your name here>

shanefrom302 said:

I have a ceremony coming up and now the bride emailed me saying she needs a guitar amp and 2 microphones on stands for musicians who will be playing music, in between the music she asked me to play.

Why is it musicians take gigs without amplification or a PA period? That's like me agreeing to do the reception and showing up asking to use the venues house system! I don't get it!!!

Do you charge the musicians or the bride extra? Do you not charge at all?

I don't know who but I am charging somebody! She complained my ceremony system was priced too high and I gave her a nice speech about whats included and all the details. After all of that I still gave her a nice discount just to fill the date. None of those details included a guitar amp or 2 microphones.

What would you do?

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djrox said:

Now you have misdirected, accidentally I hope, your responses and changed the parameters of the request in the OP's original post.

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I don't see how.

djrox said:

The original subject request was not for "a mic or two and ten minutes of time" but for the OP to facilitate, with no additional compensation or consideration, the performance of live musicians.

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And my response is that a mic or two and ten minutes of time is all that is needed to facilitate said performance satisfactorily.

djrox said:

Perhaps the OP does not want to half-ass it and have that reflect on his service. But YMMV.

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It's kind of hard to "half-ass" something like that. You can either mic them up and make it sound pleasant within the context of the rest of your ceremony offering or you can't. If you can't do that for the situation outlined in the OP with very minimal effort, equipment, and time, then quite frankly you have no business to offer said services at all, be it on a paid, or even free basis.

djrox said:

Personal favors are solely for my loved ones and personal friends.

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Nobody but you is talking about personal favors. I invest minimal time and effort to receive compensation, both monetary and (just as vital and valuable) NON-monetary in nature. No "favors" are involved and the notion they are is something that perhaps you introduced. Of course it is my exact contention that the CLIENTS perception is that of a favor, as it should be. My getting my return (yes COMPENSATION) for my investment here hinges upon exactly that perception on their part, but no "favors" are being done from my side.

djrox said:

Legitimate charity is for the needy not the wanty.

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Though I would tend to agree, not technically so. "Charity" is defined and derives it's nature from the particular type of motivation and disposition of the one performing it and doesn't necessarily hinge upon any particular type or state of the recipient. But again, in practice I agree with your point.

djrox said:

None of my non-charity clients are being favored in my contracts,

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Since the notions of "charity" and "favors" are your introduction and no one else's, and neither is being performed, I see no point to respond to this direction in detail.

djrox said:

I simply do not desire or choose to enter relationships where mutual respect and benefit are secondary.

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Nor does anyone else here.

djrox said:

Despite that, I have been commended, on numerous occasions, by paying clients mind you, for going above and beyond. I personally cherish those accolades with as much appreciation as any fee I require.

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That's just the way it should be.

Damn a lot of replies for a simple question!

What I find amazing is so much discussion about charging for a simple hookup, when so many have said, they meet with the clients more than once (sometimes before they are even booked) go through all kinds of hand holding sessions with the brides and offer this that or the other with their service and then have a problem with a keyboard or guitar being plugged in or supplying an extra mic or two.

As for mic stands or boom stands they are already in the van, so pulling one out isn't a real problem. If your mixer is capable of running said mics and gear (available inputs) there is no reason not to supply them access. You are in control of the levels so that isn't a problem.

Thunder said:

As for mic stands or boom stands they are already in the van, so pulling one out isn't a real problem. If your mixer is capable of running said mics and gear (available inputs) there is no reason not to supply them access. You are in control of the levels so that isn't a problem.

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Oh shut it you dang submissive-pussyfoot-charity-giving-favor-doing-work-for-nothing-old man! :tribiggrin: