Test your knowledge What is this insanely awesome box

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I am not saying it's not a good amp but I will be willing to bet the farm it's no match for a class A/B...

On the upside it might be an alternative in the future to lighten the load
 
well i think at this point any worry is premature as no one knows much about this piece. It works and im going to use it and take a heavy amp as back up and leave in the van on my job and as they prove themselves i may switch out.


You have to understand i have to run this business different than a lot of other people. Yeah my rig and vances rig (GM) are a lot different then everybody elses but im not going to invest the money on the par of equipment you guys use for my other 16 djs our house systems are

2 passives either JBL's or Yammys or 2 Powered Speakers
Stands
Surge PGX wireless
Pioneer CDJ's
Pioneer Mixer
Serato

---------------------
My main competion A&A DJ's
- CDN-88
- Numark CM200
- Eon G1s

our other multi op in town
5 systems
Gemini CD Players
Gemini or Numark Mixer
Gemini or Pyle speakers


im the best of the big guys and thats where i want to be. You and i debating each other is like comparing apples and a bowl of fruit loops.
 
Well, this should come as no surprise. ;)

Brother Kyle, I am reminded of an old joke we have in the industrial maintenance field: You can buy 52 cheap parts and replace them every week or you can buy one quality part and replace it every year. :D

Can't speak for the rest but for my part, I'd prefer not to have to replace business equipment any more than I have to. Our business equipment is paid for ~ has been since 2000 ~ and we'll be riding the gravy train for years to come. :)


All that said, and I agree with the premise, Vestax is pretty synonymous with making good gear.
 
Kyle, I can't believe you mentioned Pioneer and Gemini in the same post. That's effed up. Blasphemy, I say! :eek:

Vestax is an OEM brand. I rememer when Carvin sold an OEM dually CD system that was the same thing. They were on a DJ gear kick at the time. Rebranded ADJ lighting. That didn't last long. The stuff was coming back for warranty replacement.

Hey, if the cheap, Chinee knockoff stuff works for you, great. If it fails during the intros, shorts out your system or barbecues your drivers during a show, I feel for ya.

Something tells me that you're not gonna come back and tell the rest about it if it does. ;)
 
I would ive got no problem admitting fault.
Ive never seen a problem with vestax are you sure they're an OEM brand? Of who of what?
I have a 20 year old vestax battle mixer that id use with 1200s to take on anyone any day and the only thing ive replaced is the crossfader.



Vestx OEM? this is from Wiki:
he Vestax Corporation of Japan began in 1977 as a designer and manufacturer of electronic guitars. In the 80's Vestax introduced a series of cassette based multitracks to challenge established products from Fostex, Yamaha and Tascam's portastudios. Today, as music making continues to evolve in this high tech age, Vestax are more commonly known for innovative sound developments such as signal processors, DJ Mixers, professional turntables and Compact Disc players.

By concentrating their efforts into the needs of nightclubs and Disc jockeys, their mixers have become firm favourites of international superstar DJs such as Carl Cox, DJ QBert and Cut Chemist. Mixers such as the various iterations of the PMC-05pro have become staples of the Hip Hop DJ community, and they also have manufactured signature models for DJ's such as Carl Cox and DJ Qbert.

During the late 1990's Vestax launched a new flagship range of professional DJ turntables. The PDX models had higher specifications than the two market leading products from Technics and were priced in direct competition with the Technics SL1210/SL1200.

However the industry standard Technics SL1210/SL1200 models remained the favourite of DJs worldwide, mostly due to the almost 20 year head start they have had to become established.

This pattern of events has been replicated by other DJ equipment manufacturers such as Numark, Gemini and Stanton. It is worth noting though that while many of these turntables have either a higher specification or lower cost, in sheer numbers sold they are still dwarfed by the various versions of the SL-1200.

Today Vestax has reduced its range of turntables, the PDX-2000mk2/2300mk2 for mainstream DJ use, and the PDX-2000mk2pro/PDX-2300pro with a new tonearm suspension system for increased skip resistance. In conjunction with DJ Qbert they have also released the QFO and QFO LE models, which are turntables with built in mixers, and a portable turntable/mixer that is capable of battery power. It is also worth noting that Vestax is the first manufacturer to release a vinyl cutting machine.

One of Vestax's main innovations with their turntable was the introduction of the straight tone arm, which supposedly gave greater tracking force; useful for complex dj'ing maneuvers such as scratching or beat juggling. This has been adopted by virtually all other turntable manufacturers, with the exception of technics. Some maintain however that the straight arm increases wear upon the record. This is based on the premise that the original 's' shaped tonearm is so designed as to naturally gravitate toward the center of the record. The straight arm will not do this, and so will theoretically drag more as the record rotates, wearing down the grooves. Vestax however have consistently denied this.[citation needed] (Myth), turntables have been made for many years with straight "tone arms" and other varying designs. The crucial aspect of the record player is cartridge and stylus alignment which relates to how records are made (cut) Baerwald ca. 1941 showed that the tracking error of a pivoted stylus could be minimized if the stylus is aligned such that it is parallel to the groove at two points along its curved path. As long as the stylus is set correctly there wil be minimal undesired wear on a standar record for any style or shape of tonearm.(The Myth continues)



and a final note. Although I have only been here a short while Fred, my posts would say the absolute opposite if this amp ****ed up on me id be the first person to come back here and say either i ****ed up or it was a piece of ****.

kyle

i do think your wrong on OEM Qbert and those guys wouldnt use reverse engineered stuff.
 
Kyle,

That's all well and fine... but we ain't talkin' about TTs nor the Wiki here. We're talking professional power amps. :)

OEM pieces that carry the Vestax logo are also sold under other brand names. This cannot be denied.

All I'm saying ~ there is a big difference between cheap Chinee stuff that overrates their specs and professional sound equipment that is made here in the USA. I am proud to be an American. Our business equipment was made here in the USA. It is of good quality and has served us well over the years.

I wouldn't be seen with that cheap stuff in my rack. But don't take my word for it. Take that little Vestax branded amp out there on the road and see what the professional musicians and soundmen tell you. ;)
 
I'm always looking for smaller, lighter gear so this gizmo is certainly interesting to me from that standpoint. However, if you compare it's price of $549 to the Yamaha EMX512 powered mixer @ $569 which also puts out 500W per channel @ 4ohms, it doesn't seem like a very good deal to me. The QSC PLX 1602 puts out 500W per channel @ 4ohms and it's $700, it's light but a bit pricey. The Carvin DCM1500 puts out 500W per channel @ 4ohms and it's $400, weighs 26 pounds.

But, if you're trying to cut weight and put together a compact, easy to carry system, it's worth paying a bit more for individual components. How much more is subjective. For me size and weight are major issues. I'm not lifting 60+ pound speakers up onto poles, no way. Whether this newfangled, teeny, weeny amp can cut the mustard is something I imagine Kyle will keep us updated on.
 
Kyle,

That's all well and fine... but we ain't talkin' about TTs nor the Wiki here. We're talking professional power amps. :)

OEM pieces that carry the Vestax logo are also sold under other brand names. This cannot be denied.

All I'm saying ~ there is a big difference between cheap Chinee stuff that overrates their specs and professional sound equipment that is made here in the USA. I am proud to be an American. Our business equipment was made here in the USA. It is of good quality and has served us well over the years.

I wouldn't be seen with that cheap stuff in my rack. But don't take my word for it. Take that little Vestax branded amp out there on the road and see what the professional musicians and soundmen tell you. ;)

Fred,
Are you sure you're not thinking Stanton?
Kyle
 
Kyle,

That's all well and fine... but we ain't talkin' about TTs nor the Wiki here. We're talking professional power amps. :)

OEM pieces that carry the Vestax logo are also sold under other brand names. This cannot be denied.

All I'm saying ~ there is a big difference between cheap Chinee stuff that overrates their specs and professional sound equipment that is made here in the USA. I am proud to be an American. Our business equipment was made here in the USA. It is of good quality and has served us well over the years.

I wouldn't be seen with that cheap stuff in my rack. But don't take my word for it. Take that little Vestax branded amp out there on the road and see what the professional musicians and soundmen tell you. ;)

I think that Vestax may be the copied brand. From everything I've read, and talking to a couple of friend who've been doing this quite a while, Vestax appears to be the OEM Manufacturer in that they make something and its copied with other company names etc. They are the originator.

Complaining that I shouldnt use a vestax piece because of this would mean i shouldnt use Pioneer either as Behringer so obviously ripped of the DJM 600-800 series for which we employ both..


Now in the last post, Fred, you said something about professional musicians.
Granted I may not get high fives from all professional musicians Professional musicians are not my normal clientele Fred we average 12-18 jobs per week every week of every year and haven't had a saturday off since February 8, 2003

On a similar note, Dwight Mabe formerly of the graphic, who did FOH for a little band out of Athens called REM has given his blessing on the Vestax amp at least with me taking it.
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There are several other classes of amplifiers that are or have been experimented with through the years but most of the lightest weight amps are Class D amps or the crown "D" BCA amps. Below are the exerts from an article on amp classes.

Class D amplifiers are much more efficient than Class AB power amplifiers. As such, Class D amplifiers do not need large transformers and heavy heatsinks, which means that they are smaller and lighter in weight than an equivalent Class AB amplifier. All power devices in a Class D amplifier are operated in on/off mode. Output stages such as those used in pulse generators are examples of class D amplifiers. The term usually applies to devices intended to reproduce signals with a bandwidth well below the switching frequency.

These amplifiers use pulse width modulation, pulse density modulation (sometimes referred to as pulse frequency modulation) or more advanced form of modulation such as Delta-sigma modulation (for example, in the Analog Devices AD1990 Class-D audio power amplifier).

The input signal is converted to a sequence of pulses whose averaged value is directly proportional to the instantaneous amplitude of the signal. The frequency of the pulses is typically ten or more times the highest frequency of interest in the input signal. The output of such an amplifier contains unwanted spectral components (that is, the pulse frequency and its harmonics) which must be removed by a passive filter. The resulting filtered signal is then an amplified replica of the input.

The main advantage of a class D amplifier is power efficiency. Because the output pulses have a fixed amplitude, the switching elements (usually MOSFETs, but valves and bipolar transistors were once used) are switched either on or off, rather than operated in linear mode. This means that very little power is dissipated by the transistors, except during the very short interval between the on and off states. The wasted power is low because the instantaneous power dissipated in the transistor is the product of voltage and current, and one or the other is almost always close to zero. The lower losses permit the use of a smaller heat sink while the power supply requirements are lessened too.

Class D amplifiers can be controlled by either analog or digital circuits. The digital control introduces additional distortion called quantization error caused by its conversion of the input signal to a digital value.

Class D amplifiers have been widely used to control motors, and almost exclusively for small DC motors, but they are now also used as audio amplifiers, with some extra circuitry to allow analogue to be converted to a much higher frequency pulse width modulated signal. The relative difficulty of achieving good audio quality means that nearly all are used in applications where quality is not a factor, such as modestly-priced bookshelf audio systems and "DVD-receivers" in mid-price home theater systems.

High quality Class D audio amplifiers are now, however, starting to appear in the market:

Tripath have called their revised Class D designs Class T.
Bang and Olufsen's ICEPower Class D system has been used in the Alpine PDX range and some Pioneer's PRS range and for other manufacturers' equipment.
These revised designs have been said to rival good traditional AB amplifiers in terms of quality.

Before these higher quality designs existed an earlier use of Class D amplifiers and prolific area of application was high-powered, subwoofer amplifiers in cars. Because subwoofers are generally limited to a bandwidth of no higher than 150 Hz, the switching speed for the amplifier does not have to be as high as for a full range amplifier. The drawback with Class D designs being used to power subwoofers is that their output filters (typically inductors that convert the pulse width signal back into an analogue waveform) lower the damping factor of the amplifier.

This means that the amplifier cannot prevent the subwoofer's reactive nature from lessening the impact of low bass sounds (as explained in the feedback part of the Class AB section). Class D amplifiers for driving subwoofers are relatively inexpensive, in comparison to Class AB amplifiers. A 1000 watt Class D subwoofer amplifier that can operate at about 80% to 95% efficiency costs about $250 USD, much less than a Class AB amplifier of this power, which would cost several thousand dollars.

The letter D used to designate this amplifier class is simply the next letter after C, and does not stand for digital. Class D and Class E amplifiers are sometimes mistakenly described as "digital" because the output waveform superficially resembles a pulse-train of digital symbols, but a Class D amplifier merely converts an input waveform into a continuously pulse-width modulated (square wave) analog signal. (A digital waveform would be pulse-code modulated.)

There are a variety of amplifier designs that couple a class AB output stage with other more efficient techniques to achieve a higher efficiency with low distortion. These designs are common in large audio amplifiers, for instance, since the heatsinks and power transformers would be prohibitively large (and costly) without the increase in efficiency. The terms "class G" and "class H" are used interchangeably to refer to different designs, varying in definition from one manufacturer or paper to another.

Class G amplifiers are a more efficient version of class AB amplifiers, which use "rail switching" to decrease power consumption and increase efficiency. The amplifier has several power rails at different voltages, and switches between rails as the signal output approaches each. Thus the amp increases efficiency by reducing the wasted power at the output transistors.



A Class H amplifier takes the idea of Class G one step further creating an infinite number of supply rails. This is done by modulating the supply rails so that the rails are only a few volts larger than the output signal at any given time. The output stage operates at its maximum efficiency all the time. Switched mode power supplies can be used to create the tracking rails. Significant efficiency gains can be achieved but with the drawback of more complicated supply design and reduced THD performance.



Efficiency Class H The classes can be most easily understood using the diagrams in each section below. For the sake of illustration, a bipolar junction transistor is shown as the amplifying device, but in practice this could be a MOSFET or vacuum tube device. In an analog amplifier (the most common kind), the signal is applied to the input terminal of the device (base, gate or grid), and this causes a proportional output drive current to flow out of the output terminal. The output drive current comes from the power supply.

The voltage signal shown is thus a larger version of the input, but has been changed in sign (inverted) by the amplification. Other arrangements of amplifying device are possible, but that given (that is, common emitter, common source or common cathode) is the easiest to understand and employ in practice. If the amplifying element is linear, then the output will be faithful copy of the input, only larger and inverted. In actual practice, transistors are not linear, and the output will only approximate the input. Non-linearity from any of several sources is the origin of distortion within an amplifier. Which class of amplifier (A, B, AB or C) depends on how the amplifying device is biased — in the diagrams the bias circuits are omitted for clarity.

Any real amplifier is an imperfect realisation of an ideal amplifier. One important limitation of a real amplifier is that the output it can generate is ultimately limited by the power available from the power supply. An amplifier will saturate and clip the output if the input signal becomes too large for the amplifier to reproduce or if operational limits for a device are exceeded.
 
Class D amplifiers are much more efficient than Class AB power amplifiers. As such, Class D amplifiers do not need large transformers and heavy heatsinks, which means that they are smaller and lighter in weight than an equivalent Class AB amplifier. All power devices in a Class D amplifier are operated in on/off mode. Output stages such as those used in pulse generators are examples of class D amplifiers. The term usually applies to devices intended to reproduce signals with a bandwidth well below the switching frequency.

There are several other classes of amplifiers that are or have been experimented with through the years but most of the lightest weight amps are Class D amps or the crown "D" BCA amps.

These amplifiers use pulse width modulation, pulse density modulation (sometimes referred to as pulse frequency modulation) or more advanced form of modulation such as Delta-sigma modulation (for example, in the Analog Devices AD1990 Class-D audio power amplifier).

The input signal is converted to a sequence of pulses whose averaged value is directly proportional to the instantaneous amplitude of the signal. The frequency of the pulses is typically ten or more times the highest frequency of interest in the input signal. The output of such an amplifier contains unwanted spectral components (that is, the pulse frequency and its harmonics) which must be removed by a passive filter. The resulting filtered signal is then an amplified replica of the input.

The main advantage of a class D amplifier is power efficiency. Because the output pulses have a fixed amplitude, the switching elements (usually MOSFETs, but valves and bipolar transistors were once used) are switched either on or off, rather than operated in linear mode. This means that very little power is dissipated by the transistors, except during the very short interval between the on and off states. The wasted power is low because the instantaneous power dissipated in the transistor is the product of voltage and current, and one or the other is almost always close to zero. The lower losses permit the use of a smaller heat sink while the power supply requirements are lessened too.

Class D amplifiers can be controlled by either analog or digital circuits. The digital control introduces additional distortion called quantization error caused by its conversion of the input signal to a digital value.

Class D amplifiers have been widely used to control motors, and almost exclusively for small DC motors, but they are now also used as audio amplifiers, with some extra circuitry to allow analogue to be converted to a much higher frequency pulse width modulated signal. The relative difficulty of achieving good audio quality means that nearly all are used in applications where quality is not a factor, such as modestly-priced bookshelf audio systems and "DVD-receivers" in mid-price home theater systems.

High quality Class D audio amplifiers are now, however, starting to appear in the market:

Tripath have called their revised Class D designs Class T.
Bang and Olufsen's ICEPower Class D system has been used in the Alpine PDX range and some Pioneer's PRS range and for other manufacturers' equipment.
These revised designs have been said to rival good traditional AB amplifiers in terms of quality.

Before these higher quality designs existed an earlier use of Class D amplifiers and prolific area of application was high-powered, subwoofer amplifiers in cars. Because subwoofers are generally limited to a bandwidth of no higher than 150 Hz, the switching speed for the amplifier does not have to be as high as for a full range amplifier. The drawback with Class D designs being used to power subwoofers is that their output filters (typically inductors that convert the pulse width signal back into an analogue waveform) lower the damping factor of the amplifier.

This means that the amplifier cannot prevent the subwoofer's reactive nature from lessening the impact of low bass sounds (as explained in the feedback part of the Class AB section). Class D amplifiers for driving subwoofers are relatively inexpensive, in comparison to Class AB amplifiers. A 1000 watt Class D subwoofer amplifier that can operate at about 80% to 95% efficiency costs about $250 USD, much less than a Class AB amplifier of this power, which would cost several thousand dollars.

The letter D used to designate this amplifier class is simply the next letter after C, and does not stand for digital. Class D and Class E amplifiers are sometimes mistakenly described as "digital" because the output waveform superficially resembles a pulse-train of digital symbols, but a Class D amplifier merely converts an input waveform into a continuously pulse-width modulated (square wave) analog signal. (A digital waveform would be pulse-code modulated.)

There are a variety of amplifier designs that couple a class AB output stage with other more efficient techniques to achieve a higher efficiency with low distortion. These designs are common in large audio amplifiers, for instance, since the heatsinks and power transformers would be prohibitively large (and costly) without the increase in efficiency. The terms "class G" and "class H" are used interchangeably to refer to different designs, varying in definition from one manufacturer or paper to another.

Class G amplifiers are a more efficient version of class AB amplifiers, which use "rail switching" to decrease power consumption and increase efficiency. The amplifier has several power rails at different voltages, and switches between rails as the signal output approaches each. Thus the amp increases efficiency by reducing the wasted power at the output transistors.



A Class H amplifier takes the idea of Class G one step further creating an infinite number of supply rails. This is done by modulating the supply rails so that the rails are only a few volts larger than the output signal at any given time. The output stage operates at its maximum efficiency all the time. Switched mode power supplies can be used to create the tracking rails. Significant efficiency gains can be achieved but with the drawback of more complicated supply design and reduced THD performance.



Efficiency Class H The classes can be most easily understood using the diagrams in each section below. For the sake of illustration, a bipolar junction transistor is shown as the amplifying device, but in practice this could be a MOSFET or vacuum tube device. In an analog amplifier (the most common kind), the signal is applied to the input terminal of the device (base, gate or grid), and this causes a proportional output drive current to flow out of the output terminal. The output drive current comes from the power supply.

The voltage signal shown is thus a larger version of the input, but has been changed in sign (inverted) by the amplification. Other arrangements of amplifying device are possible, but that given (that is, common emitter, common source or common cathode) is the easiest to understand and employ in practice. If the amplifying element is linear, then the output will be faithful copy of the input, only larger and inverted. In actual practice, transistors are not linear, and the output will only approximate the input. Non-linearity from any of several sources is the origin of distortion within an amplifier. Which class of amplifier (A, B, AB or C) depends on how the amplifying device is biased — in the diagrams the bias circuits are omitted for clarity.

Any real amplifier is an imperfect realisation of an ideal amplifier. One important limitation of a real amplifier is that the output it can generate is ultimately limited by the power available from the power supply. An amplifier will saturate and clip the output if the input signal becomes too large for the amplifier to reproduce or if operational limits for a device are exceeded.

Looks like the wiki entry for class d ;)
 
Kyle,

It was and it can also be found in an article called amplifier basics written in early 2000 in an article in "Professional Sound Magazine".
 
Fred is such a snob! LOL ;)

if it ain't big and heavey, it aint sh%t.... that was how I felt for years,,,,
 
So now I'm curious about this class D amplifier class. Does anyone know of any other class D high output pro sound amps available? Are Peavey, Yamaha, QSC or some of the other good name brand companies putting out this kind of device? I love the concept, I just don't like the price. More choices, more competition, better price. I bet Behringer will copy the design and come out with one for $200 less, that's what they do. I read that the EP2500 was a direct copy of a QSC amp.
 
Oz
Most of the behringer stuff for djs and pa is a direct reverse engineered piece of something else.
 
Like many products that are new, the price will likely come down as more people buy them.

Getting prospective customers interested in the product is half the battle. Technology is always improving things. The word has to get to the street that this product is a better choice than what it's designed to supersede. :)

Chuck's right ~ Wolfie can get a bit irritated over some things equipment related. I offer no excuses for my often boorish behavior ~ only ask that the reader understand that I have read and heard countless horror stories about "shortcut" equipment over the years. Especially so with suspect imported pieces.

Seems like every time someone tries to make something lighter and less expensive, corners are cut and quality is dismissed in favor of sales. Specs are inflated and the buyer is misled. These things tend to fail miserably in equipment shootouts. Bear in mind that shootouts are done for a reason ~ you want the best tools for the job. But don't take my word for it. Ask Ben or Valerie. They can tell you about professional business equipment.

When you're running a business, the cheapest or the lightest isn't necessarily the best choice. If it decides to take the night off or is clicking or popping in the middle of a show, what have you gained?

Pro sound isn't alone in this. Many people have paid upwards of $7,000.00 for plasma televisions that contain the cheapest electronic components that could be found. When I was working at the TV shop I saw this every damn day. They were coming in for repair as fast as people were buying them.

Longevity and dependability ~ these are requirements for my business equipment. I'll deal with the weight and higher cost if it's still gonna be working when I retire. :)

Thoughts?