Same Library For Multiple Systems

To many ads? Support ODJT and see no ads!
It's not hard for me to prove if somebody violated my EULA. If I do not give you the right to perform one of my songs in a given environment, then you have not only violated my EULA, but also copyright.

Here's the problem with your argument.. the protections for software and music are not identical.

A copyright is granted by statute.
An EULA is a contract.

As for music; once the work has been published some of the control you are claiming is lost by statute. For one thing - the work can be performed by anyone with no other liability but the royalty prescribed by statute. There is no EULA that automatically attaches to the "Christmas Song" only copyright law and those rights which the statute allows an author/publisher to reserve. If I obtain a recording of it from iTunes and play it in a club which has active ASCAP/BMI accounts I'm not liable for anything. The worst Apple can do is close my account. The EULA contains no other actionable provision since I have violated no one's copyright, and produced no damage or liability for Apple.

The RIAA tried to argue that MP3s are software and thus not applicable to the Copyright Act's authority over "phono-recordings." That argument was lost and the Home Recording Act further codifies digital music files as "phono-recordings" for the purpose of copyright legislation.

If I am performing a December wedding in the park and Mel Torme happens to stroll by and hear the "Christmas Song" he has no claim on a public performance because the song is not being performed at a public gathering. The park has been permitted for a private event. Mel hearing the noise has no more actionable cause than if he heard the stereo in the apartment next door.

Commercial use is well defined -- it means for-profit.

No it doesn't. It means: a derivative causal relationship absent any statutory exemption.

Furthermore: Commercial use and public performance do not mean the same thing.

If you run a bar you generate beverage sales. If you add background music your revenue increases. If you add music for dancing your revenue increases even more. There is a direct causal relationship between the addition of music and sales receipts. This relationship is independent of whether the music comes from a band, DJ, or jukebox. This is a public performance not a commercial use.

If I'm a mluti-op and duplicate 10 copies of custom CD compilations to make a library for each of my DJs this constitutes a derivative product and is a commercial use not a public performance.


If I outfit my 10 DJs with a collection of original CDs and they go out and do 10 weddings simultaneously - this is neither a commercial use or a public performance.

If one of my 10 DJs shows up at a club with his collection of original CDs this is a public performance not a commercial use.

I assume you folks are attempting to make a profit.

The profit must result from a public performance or derivative product. Performing a work publicly attracts a crowd - and the profits to which the law refers are the products you sell to that crowd and/or the cover charge to be a part of it. A royalty is due because the music is used to establish or enhance the disposition of buyers.

A wedding is private and therefore exempt by statute - nothing is being sold and the disposition of the crowd assembled is defined by their perosnal relationship not the music program. The fee (or lack thereof) for the DJ or band is irrelevant because the music they play is unrelated to any business purpose for which the crowd has been assembled. The purpose for which the music is applied (personal celebration) is by statute deemed non-commercial and private.

f you are using other peoples IP to make a profit (without express permission from the IP holder to do such), you're on the losing end of the stick.

Your argument is limited by the word "using" which for music means something entirely different from "performing." Once you publish a musical work it can be legally performed by anyone, anywhere, anytime, with only the the prescribed royalty (if any) being due.

Granted, I have not really heard of any cases where companies/individuals have gone after individual DJs. I'm sorta guessing it would be hard to collect even the legal fees, let alone damages. So, quite frankly, I doubt if you need to worry, but it is feasible that Apple or Amazon could take you to court over it, and undoubtedly they would win.

They don't have a snowball's chance in hell of even getting a case heard against a wedding DJ. If they did, they'd have already done it and we would all be paying special royalties to be wedding DJs. It is expressly prohibited in the USA under terms in both both Title 17 USC and Title 15 USC.
 
Bob - Not sure what I am linking and unifying. All I was saying was the EULAs from iTunes and Amazon prohibit non-personal use. I also stated that I have researched and can not find anything that would consider playing music out for pay (whether it was for a wedding or a bar) NOT A PUBLIC PERFORMANCE. You keep asserting it is not .. I haven't seen anything out there that agrees, that's all.

Whether I am allowed to play it anyway IS a valid discussion topic, as the venue's licensing may allow it, regardless of the EULA (ie, the EULA may not be enforceable). Just laying out what it says.

If you can show where a DJ performance for pay is NOT PUBLIC, please link it.

Get off your butt, go to the library (yes, where they have real law books) and read the relevent sections of U.S.C. Title 17 esp. Copyright Act of 1976

The internet is full of GARBAGE when it comes to copyright information. This thread is a perfect example of how mis-informed people are - including musicians and DJs.

I doubt any of you would trust a drug dealer to tell you cocaine is addictive? Yet, many of you expect music distributors and RIAA lawyers to give you straight answers about your performance rights? The place to get good information is from actual case law - not the opinions of people with a vested interested in spreading fear and collecting fees.

BTW: An EULA is a contract not a copyright and I can not be held liable for it if I do not specifically and expressly assent to the agreement. Thus, liability for the misuse of an iTunes exclusive product must be traced back to the last known participant to the EULA to be actionable for anything other than an actual registered copyright.
 
Bob, I have to call BS on this one -- you're citing vague statutes, and have probably never been in court over one of these issues.

It's all well and good to take a subjective opinion, and debate -- but unless you've been there, yer kinda blowing smoke...

We could argue this all week, but the bottom line is you're an end user, not the creator of the music/software/book, etc.
You have no stake in the IP, you just want to abuse it for your own needs and profits.

Do you sleep better knowing that...?
 
Thanks for the clarification Bob.
 
Geez, if WE can't figure this out, then there's no way the government is gonna come up with an answer...unless they can make money off it.
 
Bob, I have to call BS on this one -- you're citing vague statutes, and have probably never been in court over one of these issues.

It's all well and good to take a subjective opinion, and debate -- but unless you've been there, yer kinda blowing smoke...

We could argue this all week, but the bottom line is you're an end user, not the creator of the music/software/book, etc.
You have no stake in the IP, you just want to abuse it for your own needs and profits.

Do you sleep better knowing that...?

Then I challenge you to cite an actual case where a (non-televised, non-state) wedding event, even one held in the park or town square, was deemed "public" and ordered to pay restitution and or royalties to a copyright holder, or performing rights agency.

Since when is U.S. Code Title 17 a vague statute? ... you're unwillingness to read the law, court decisions, or express Congressional opinion does not make something vague... and I am not responsible for providing you the learning materials.

Can you give us just one case you were a party to that was specifically music copyright and not a contract dispute over software EULAs or trademark?

The EULA is a contract and it has not been shown to supersede any existing rights granted under the Copyright Laws. The RIAA itself in a statement to Mobile Beat magazine indicated no interest or concern in the performance of purchased downloads at bars and nightclubs with active ASCAP/BMI licenses. {Presumably, because any action in that direction would be viewed by the Congressional Committee on Copyrights as an attempted end run around existing law.}

I sleep better knowing that nothing I've indicated attempts to cheat anyone out of anything they are entitled to - including the end users.
 
Then I challenge you to cite an actual case where a (non-televised, non-state) wedding event, even one held in the park or town square, was deemed "public" and ordered to pay restitution and or royalties to a copyright holder, or performing rights agency.

You seem to enjoy this debate as much as I Bob... xf:D

So let's start with the simple concept of "Commercial Use".

Define that for me, as you see it...
 
I'll do something Bob hasn't been able to do I'll provide a link

http://www.ascap.com/licensing/licensingfaq.aspx

A public performance is one that occurs either in a public place or any place where people gather (other than a small circle of a family or its social acquaintances.) A public performance is also one that is transmitted to the public; for example, radio or television broadcasts, music-on-hold, cable television, and by the internet. Generally, those who publicly perform music obtain permission from the owner of the music or his representative. However, there are a few limited exceptions, (called "exemptions") to this rule. Permission is not required for music played or sung as part of a worship service unless that service is transmitted beyond where it takes place (for example, a radio or television broadcast). Performances as part of face to face teaching activity at a non-profit educational institutions are also exempt.
 
I'll do something Bob hasn't been able to do I'll provide a link

http://www.ascap.com/licensing/licensingfaq.aspx
By that definition I don't see a Wedding as a Public Performance. These are invited Guests not the general public. Any and everybody can't just walk off the streets and join the event.
I can also have people gather in my backyard but that does not make it public. Interpretation of a Law, Statute etc can be a big deciding factor or each side. Burden of proof lies on the one who wrote it!
 
By that definition I don't see a Wedding as a Public Performance. These are invited Guests not the general public. Any and everybody can't just walk off the streets and join the event.
I can also have people gather in my backyard but that does not make it public. Interpretation of a Law, Statute etc can be a big deciding factor or each side. Burden of proof lies on the one who wrote it!

Now I see it juist the opposite. Like you said interpertation
 
or any place where people gather (other than a small circle of a family or its social acquaintances.)

a reception venue certainly fits as a "place where people gather". I don't know where 125 people would be considered "a small circle of family or its social acquaintances.
 
or any place where people gather (other than a small circle of a family or its social acquaintances.)

a reception venue certainly fits as a "place where people gather". I don't know where 125 people would be considered "a small circle of family or its social acquaintances.

Any personal interpretation is worthlessly uninformed if you don't bother to review any case law examples. The notion of 125 people in a reception hall has already been tested in court and it is private. The number is irrelevant. It does not matter if you have 1,500 people at your wedding or what hotel you decide to have it at - the wedding will always be private unless it is a state wedding or you broadcast it.

That does not mean that the hotel can't have a blanket license of it's own (because it may use a background music system throughout it's space, have a lounge with entertainment, or host other events that are public) - it just means your wedding is not the reason they need one.

The license applies to the events that occur on a premise not the DJs - that is why the fact that you charge for your DJ servcie has nothing to do with it being a public or private performance.

Performance and use are not the same thing. If you sync music to a video or montage, broadcast, stream, copy discs to give away, record mixes for aerobic instructors, etc. that is all "use" and all uses require some type of license unique to that use (sync, mechanical, distribution, etc) or must fall under the Fair Use clause (library, educational, etc.)

Any individual who owns a personal music collection and shares it by playing it (even for a fee) provides only a performance of the works. That performance might be private (wedding, employee holiday party, birthday) or public (nightclub, trade show, concert). If it's public - it is the event promoter or the venue that is responsible, not the DJ unless they are one in the same.

Question: (food for thought)
If anyone wants to call themselves a "professional" DJ - is it too much to ask that they go to the public library or any law library and study the laws relevant to their own profession? How about auditing a college course on copyright law and it's history? How is it a DJ will spend thousands of dollars on CDs but not a few hundred to understand the legal liabilities of their own career?

The most disturbing thing about this whole thread is how many DJs expect someone else or some website to walk them through an education on copyright - literally handing them enlightenment in a downloadable format.

If anyone cares to raise the bar in the DJ industry this is the place to start - by rejecting the arrogant: "I'll sit here until you show me" sense of entitlement. It's that same sense of entitlement that when taken to a perverted extreme allows someone to willfully disregard copyrights in the first place through serial copying, or file sharing. Even the most anti-piracy minded people among us still constitute a serious problem if they don't actually understand the laws that govern the wedding and special event industry.
 
I'll do something Bob hasn't been able to do I'll provide a link

http://www.ascap.com/licensing/licensingfaq.aspx

I would not rely on the ASCAP information to make such detailed distinctions because, it is paraphrased and contains both bias language and construction not entirely consistent with the actual text of the law. The law makes no such qualification about the "size" of a gathering, and uses "circle" in a broader context than the ASCAP construct.

ASACP's language is more broad because they would like to sell a license to anyone who has the slightest possibility of needing one provided it is not so obvious an abuse to create a civil liability for them. (i.e. Like selling flood insurance to people who live 1500FT above the water table or the nearest river.) They typically refuse to sell blanket licenses to mobile DJs for that very reason - the law so plainly demonstrates you don't need one. Even when you perform publicly - it is usually your client who is required to license the event or venue.

There's nothing worng with ASACP promoting licenses even where there might only be an occassional exposure - that's their role. But, the mission of an agency (in this case increasing revenue from royalties) is a factor in the way they choose to write copy pertaining to copyright legislation. Read the actual case law - not someone else's version of it.
 
Bob,
Don't waste your time anymore. Pretty soon they will be hating on you too for what you know. In the world there are followers and leaders. Guess which category is the larger one? ;)
When they realize that they can't win, the thread will be closed. :sqlaugh:
 
You seem to enjoy this debate as much as I Bob... xf:D

So let's start with the simple concept of "Commercial Use".

Define that for me, as you see it...

No. I'm actually dismayed. You can do your own homework. All the information you need exists independent of me. I'm not your tutor.

If your opinion is that DJing a wedding, from the MP3's on your laptop instead the original CDs constitutes a commercial use - or even a public performance then I'm sure every one following this thread, and especially the music industry lobby is interested in any case law examples you have to back that up. I on the other hand, am not interested in trying to disprove an argument based only on your uninformed personal opinion.
 
No. I'm actually dismayed.

I'm sorry to hear that -- I hate when people are dismayed... xf:D

My simple question was easy -- how do YOU define commercial use?

It's not a court case at the moment, it is simply a debate. We have to start by agreeing on the terminology used, instead of beating around the bush...
 
Bob,
Don't waste your time anymore. Pretty soon they will be hating on you too for what you know. In the world there are followers and leaders. Guess which category is the larger one? ;)
When they realize that they can't win, the thread will be closed. :sqlaugh:

What you know, or what you can Google?...and where exactly do you see yourself? Perhaps a poll is in order?
 
I'm sorry to hear that -- I hate when people are dismayed... xf:D

My simple question was easy -- how do YOU define commercial use?

It's not a court case at the moment, it is simply a debate. We have to start by agreeing on the terminology used, instead of beating around the bush...

You should probably define Public too.
 
Any personal interpretation is worthlessly uninformed if you don't bother to review any case law examples. The notion of 125 people in a reception hall has already been tested in court and it is private. The number is irrelevant. It does not matter if you have 1,500 people at your wedding or what hotel you decide to have it at - the wedding will always be private unless it is a state wedding or you broadcast it.


Then Lawyer Bob maybe you could explain why at a private event if there was an incident the first charge laid on anyone would be public intoxication.