A really dumb DMX question

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DJ Wes said:
Yes. A group of scenes makes a chase. A group of chases makes a bank.

I would record scene 1 as the first color you want. The second scene would be the second color you want. So on and so forth until you either have all the different scenes you want or you reach 8 maximum scenes (my boards limit). It's not absolutely required you do it that way. It's just easier to keep everything straight that way. Once they are done recording this chase, you can then cycle between the scenes by first selecting the chase you just recorded and then manually triggering the scenes one scene at a time. You do this by selecting one of the eight the scene buttons of your choice. Does that make sense? You can then control the fade time using the slider I've mentioned before. I know it sounds confusing, but its really not once you do it.

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I really shouldn't have said 'color', I should have said to record the 'look' you want. You may want many different colors in a single scene, which is easy enough to do.
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I'm running a little slow this morning, dang new puppy kept waking me up every 2 hours. To my feeble understanding, a chase would be made up of multiple scenes, so if I press a chase button, wouldn't it fire off all scenes in succession (yes, I know you can set timing between the scenes)? If I hit a single scene button, manually, wouldn't that take the controller out of chase mode and put it into scene mode? Like George McFly once said "I am your density!" ;)

As for 'look', you've got it. I'm doing it ultra-simple with half the cans on addr 1 and the other half on addr 4 (having every other can on a different address). I want some looks to have a single color and others to have alternating colors. There will be zero movement during songs and no beat-to-music. Out of say, 15-20 songs (not sure at this point how many selections we'll have) I'm planning on maybe 5-10 different color schemes.
 
DJ Wes said:
Edited to read correctly. Again, my apologies....

Yes. A group of scenes makes a BANK.

I would record scene 1 as the first 'look' you want. The second scene would be the second 'look' you want. So on and so forth until you either have all the different scenes you want or until you reach 16 maximum scenes (my boards limit). It's not absolutely required you do it that way. It's just easier to keep everything straight that way. Once you are done recording this BANK of scenes, you can then cycle between the scenes by first selecting the BANK you just recorded and then manually triggering the scenes one scene at a time. You do this by selecting one of the eight scene buttons across the top of the board. You can then control the fade time using the slider I've mentioned before. I know it sounds confusing, but its really not once you do it.
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Thanks for the clarification. That's exactly as I've understood it but both my Obey 40 and myDMX controller "jump" between scene selection. The speed or fade sliders do nothing on the obey and don't exist in myDMX. I'll try that on the Elation. All I had time to do was get it out of the box and hook it up, no scenes recorded yet. Thanks again for your advice.
 
rickryan.com said:
On the new controllers, using scenes, all of the controllers stay on. I don't think (not sure) I need chases. All I'm after is a smooth transition from one scene to the other, no "snap" as you call it. From what I can see, it looks like you have to put the controller in a non-default mode to enable the fade and speed functions. As I'm reading, it appears all of the more modern controllers are setup to support intelligent fixtures where they need a simple on/off instead of fade/speed. I had a meeting last night so no chance to work with it but I'll bang on it again this evening.
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You are over-engineering it. The confusion is that you have to determine what you are actually using. Is your DMX value simply calling up a ROM chip program built into the fixture - or are you programming the color change/fade within the DMX controller?

If the fixture color fades while in "scene" or manual mode - then you are using part of the fader range to access a built in program within the fixture. This is typical of something like a Chauvet or other DJ class fixture. The fader range is 0-255 and the lower segment selects colors and the upper segment starts to scroll those colors. These however are built in programs simply being switched according to fader values - much as you would do in stand-alone mode with the switches located on the fixture itself. Additional channel faders might behave as speed controls but, again you are talking to a ROM chip inside the fixture and the value on any given fader; and hence your DMX call remains static. The controller is not really programmed to do anything - it is simply acting as a remote.


Not all fixtures may not have these built in programs the way DJ fixtures do. In that case you create the color fade by making each color a scene, then arranging the scenes in a chase. Beyond the channel faders will be separate master faders for chase rate (which sets the time between changes) and the cross-fade (which determines how quickly the change happens.) The channel faders do not trigger color changes - rather they act like dimmers from 0-255 while building scenes. The channel faders are not used while a chase is running because the controller simply steps through the sequence of stored scenes at the rates you set.

(On a moving fixture motor speed also has to be logically paired with chase & cross-fade times or else a movement may not have time to complete or will be abbreviated in it's range.)

This is why some fixtures have different DMX modes. One mode may give you access to built in programs - essentially using the DMX controller as a remote. Another mode may defer all control commands to the DMX controller. You just have to figure out what you have - how you are setting it up, and what way will accomplish things the way you prefer.
 
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Okay, now we're cooking with peanut oil.

This Elation DMX Pro console is what they call a "hybrid", and it's basically setup as two separate DMX mixers built into a single unit. The first 8 fixtures (left hand side) are setup for use with intelligent fixtures. The fade and master control does nothing on those. I finally popped my test fixture to address 129 (the first address available on the right side) and now the scenes do record fade time as well as master. In addition, you can grab a slider and it overrides that portion (R, G or B). No need to use chases (combinations of multiple scenes) and the board is acting as I would expect. Now I just need to setup the cans with one set on address 129 and the other half set on address 132. Build a series of scenes (with the dual addressing for 2 separate groups of cans) and we should be in business.
 
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rickryan.com said:
Okay, now we're cooking with peanut oil.

This Elation DMX Pro console is what they call a "hybrid", and it's basically setup as two separate DMX mixers built into a single unit. The first 8 fixtures (left hand side) are setup for use with intelligent fixtures. The fade and master control does nothing on those. I finally popped my test fixture to address 129 (the first address available on the right side) and now the scenes do record fade time as well as master. In addition, you can grab a slider and it overrides that portion (R, G or B). No need to use chases (combinations of multiple scenes) and the board is acting as I would expect. Now I just need to setup the cans with one set on address 129 and the other half set on address 132. Build a series of scenes (with the dual addressing for 2 separate groups of cans) and we should be in business.
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The left side of the Elation is for scanners and the right side is for dimmers & relays. The rate and cross fade settings can likely be applied at both sides.

It sounds like you are simply using the controller as a remote. You can not record a "fade time" in a scene because that is chase parameter. A scene is a static condition that has no rate or fade time. It sounds like you are just scrolling through a range of features built in to the fixture. A 5 channel DMX mode for example, might give you RGB dimming on 1-3 and access to built in color chases on 4 with variable speed on 5. That would make it possible to have a constant level of say Red, while the fixtures built in color-fade runs simultaneously.

The rate and cross-fade controls have no function unless you are running a chase, or setting chase program parameters. If you can vary the rate of a color change in manual mode or while setting a scene - then you are scrolling through features built in to the fixture. This makes sense in an RGB fixture since simple color fades are the most common application. It saves having to program them for each fixture profile.

Take care of the Elation - they are not very rugged.

Also, the language is different between manufactures. "Scene" is common, but some say "chase" where others call it a "run." some say "macro" and others say "show" and finally, one may refer to "page" and the other "bank." So you have to obtain a level of understanding of each level of a DMX program and pay less attention to manufacturers keywords.
 
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On the right side (par cans) you apparently can record a crossfade speed on any scene. It's working perfectly. As for ruggedness, this is a test run so cheap is fine. If I start going after production work I'll spring for better gear but for this setup it should work perfectly.
 
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rickryan.com said:
On the right side (par cans) you apparently can record a crossfade speed on any scene. It's working perfectly. As for ruggedness, this is a test run so cheap is fine. If I start going after production work I'll spring for better gear but for this setup it should work perfectly.
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The way you are phrasing that isn't possible. A "scene" doesn't have any "rates" or "cross-fade" associated with it. For the controller a scene is a steady state.

For a scene to cross-fade it has to fade into a new scene, hence stepping through a chase sequence. If you recall a scene and your fixture is color changing - then that color change is a state that exists in the fixture not the controller. A scene that cross-fades into itself produces no change.

In other words, you have selected this program just as you would a specific color. As you move the the channel fader up you are selecting variations of that color scroll program or just variations in the speed at which it runs. The distinction is mute as long as you get the result you want - but, it will matter a great deal if you actually start programming shows and don't learn the difference between what is happening in the fixture versus what the controller is doing.

A chase programmed for a 3 channel RGB fixture will work with ANY 3 channel RBG fixture, including movers and other fixture types whose colors have the same channel assigns. In contrast, a scene that recalls one of these built-in programs will only work with the specific fixture it was stored for. It is easier to edit programs at the controller and combine them to create bigger shows than it is to create new scenes or scripts for every fixture you add to a setup.
 
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Proformance said:
The way you are phrasing that isn't possible. A "scene" doesn't have any "rates" or "cross-fade" associated with it. For the controller a scene is a steady state.

For a scene to cross-fade it has to fade into a new scene, hence stepping through a chase sequence. If you recall a scene and your fixture is color changing - then that color change is a state that exists in the fixture not the controller. A scene that cross-fades into itself produces no change.

In other words, you have selected this program just as you would a specific color. As you move the the channel fader up you are selecting variations of that color scroll program or just variations in the speed at which it runs. The distinction is mute as long as you get the result you want - but, it will matter a great deal if you actually start programming shows and don't learn the difference between what is happening in the fixture versus what the controller is doing.

A chase programmed for a 3 channel RGB fixture will work with ANY 3 channel RBG fixture, including movers and other fixture types whose colors have the same channel assigns. In contrast, a scene that recalls one of these built-in programs will only work with the specific fixture it was stored for. It is easier to edit programs at the controller and combine them to create bigger shows than it is to create new scenes or scripts for every fixture you add to a setup.
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I understand what you're saying but I'm telling you how the controlled is WORKING. You go into program record mode, slide the RGB faders, slide the speed fader (3 seconds on most), slide the master all the way up, save. When you hit the scene button it rolls (crossfades) the color and intensity to what I saved, and with the amount of delay I told it to do it at. On my old NSI console (power packs), the speed slider overrides all scene selections the same. This controlled appears to be storing those values and using the setting as it appeared when the scene was saved.
 
rickryan.com said:
I understand what you're saying but I'm telling you how the controlled is WORKING. You go into program record mode, slide the RGB faders, slide the speed fader (3 seconds on most), slide the master all the way up, save. When you hit the scene button it rolls (crossfades) the color and intensity to what I saved, and with the amount of delay I told it to do it at. On my old NSI console (power packs), the speed slider overrides all scene selections the same. This controlled appears to be storing those values and using the setting as it appeared when the scene was saved.
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The cross-fade setting has nothing do with it unless by cross-fader you mean another channel fader. Either way, when you save that "scene" - you have only saved a fixture state. How many channels are you using to set the fixture state? If it is more than 3 (RGB) than you are accessing built in programs at the the fixture and your masters either aren't doing anything or they have been soft-patched to the extra channels by your fixture profile (the same way joy-stick assignments are handled).

One way to demonstrate this is to save the exact same scene - with only the channel faders set and leave the master cross-fade rate at zero. You should end up with exactly the same result unless by "cross-fader" you really mean: an additional channel fader that is a speed control for the fixtures built-in programs. If in "scene" mode your master speed control varies a color scroll then it has been soft patched to work as an additional channel fader for whatever fixture profile you have selected. This would become an issue later if you combine fixtures by different manufacturers and want them all to work together in sync.

A cross-fade rate saved with a scene would serve no purpose unless and until you build and run a chase. Think of it like a slide show - you are telling me that your pictures are dissolving into each other at a certain cross-fade rate yet, your slide show has only 1 picture. ??? Not possible, you need multiple pictures for that rate to be doing something just as you need multiple scenes.
 
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Proformance said:
The cross-fade setting has nothing do with it unless by cross-fader you mean another channel fader. Either way, when you save that "scene" - you have only saved a fixture state. How many channels are you using to set the fixture state? If it is more than 3 (RGB) than you are accessing built in programs at the the fixture and your masters either aren't doing anything or they have been soft-patched to the extra channels by your fixture profile (the same way joy-stick assignments are handled).

One way to demonstrate this is to save the exact same scene - with only the channel faders set and leave the master cross-fade rate at zero. You should end up with exactly the same result unless by "cross-fader" you really mean: an additional channel fader that is a speed control for the fixtures built-in programs. If in "scene" mode your master speed control varies a color scroll then it has been soft patched to work as an additional channel fader for whatever fixture profile you have selected. This would become an issue later if you combine fixtures by different manufacturers and want them all to work together in sync.

A cross-fade rate saved with a scene would serve no purpose unless and until you build and run a chase. Think of it like a slide show - you are telling me that your pictures are dissolving into each other at a certain cross-fade rate yet, your slide show has only 1 picture. ??? Not possible, you need multiple pictures for that rate to be doing something just as you need multiple scenes.
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I'm using the fixtures in 3-channel operation (RGB) and what I mean by crossfade is not a slider, it's the way the controller is rolling from one scene to the next. With my Obey and myDMX, the scenes "pop" from one to the other. By using the par can section of this Elation they roll, gently, from one scene to the next. Each scene appears to have the fade-in delay setting stored and executed by the controller, each time a new scene button is pressed. Don't know if it might doing the crossfade in the fixture or not but it sure appears that the fade-in value has been stored by the controller. Either way, it's working perfectly and exactly what I was wanting.
 
rickryan.com said:
I'm using the fixtures in 3-channel operation (RGB) and what I mean by crossfade is not a slider, it's the way the controller is rolling from one scene to the next. With my Obey and myDMX, the scenes "pop" from one to the other. By using the par can section of this Elation they roll, gently, from one scene to the next. Each scene appears to have the fade-in delay setting stored and executed by the controller, each time a new scene button is pressed. Don't know if it might doing the crossfade in the fixture or not but it sure appears that the fade-in value has been stored by the controller. Either way, it's working perfectly and exactly what I was wanting.
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So you have multiple "scenes" stored and then you manually select them and see your cross-fade setting take effect?
That is essentially a manual "chase" meaning you are "stepping" through it with each scene selected.

If the fixtures are changing color without you actually selecting a new scene - then that is a built in program.
The cross-fade value applies only to a scene change - not the actual scene.

The Obey and myDMX should also be capable of cross-fade and rate settings unless they are the most very basic controllers. It might just be called something else, or may be in some layered menu structure.
 
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Proformance said:
So you have multiple "scenes" stored and then you manually select them and see your cross-fade setting take effect?
That is essentially a manual "chase" meaning you are "stepping" through it with each scene selected.

If the fixtures are changing color without you actually selecting a new scene - then that is a built in program.
The cross-fade value applies only to a scene change - not the actual scene.

The Obey and myDMX should also be capable of cross-fade and rate settings unless they are the most very basic controllers. It might just be called something else, or may be in some layered menu structure.
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I'm guessing it's more of a feature of the controller. Let's say red is set at 15 on scene #1 but needs to be at 95 for scene #2. You can either issue a command to switch to 95 or the software can roll it up to 95 (issuing many commands-like a chase) and could use the speed setting to know how long it should take to reach 95. You're probably right that the obey 40 will probably do this same thing but I just was embarrassed to walk into that setting, and especially around the industry cats that I know, with that itty-bitty DJ DMX controller. At least this elation looks a bit more substantial, and apparently it does have some nice features to it. I may even pull out my acrobats or scanleds and see if they want to use those as well. I've got chauvet wireless units so setup wouldn't be bad at all.
 
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