14th Amendment

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K

Kirby Ball

Guest
Read the first section in the 14th amendment (bold face).

This is what I believe is going to hurt this country so much.

Any illegal immigrants who have children here are automatically US citizens. And by being citizens, they are entitled to all the public assistance, etc. provided by the taxpayers.

Yes, the parents may work but the children are being indoctrinated into the "welfare system" at an alarming rate. Many of those children will grow up and continue the cycle by staying on public assistance and by bringing up their children within the "nannny state".

The financial and resource drain on this country is enormous now, and will only get worse.

What can America do? Or is it too late?


Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several states according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each state, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the executive and judicial officers of a state, or the members of the legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such state, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such state.

Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any state shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
 
Need to admen the 14th amendment to give citizenship to a new-born if one of the parents is a U.S. citizen!!! Seems simple but I don’t think we have anybody in government to propose this change. Maybe change should start with “We The People….”
 
Ruben Mora said:
Need to admen the 14th amendment to give citizenship to a new-born if one of the parents is a U.S. citizen!!! Seems simple but I don’t think we have anybody in government to propose this change. Maybe change should start with “We The People….”
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Do you think that this (an amendment) will ever happen?

If it did what about the millions of children that have been born in the last decade or so?

I sure don't have the answers. :sqfrown:

Wish I did....:sqfrown:
 
Ammending the 14th may not be easy. Getting Congress to do any damn thing at all is never easy. :D

That said, states maintain the right to ammend their public assistance progams at will. Many have done so over the years. IMHO, public assistance should never be simply handed out for the askin'. This is where bureaucratic BS can actually be of use. Make it more difficult for healthy people to get on the dole and they'll find other ways to put beans on the table.

I believe relief or public assistance should be managed similarly to unemployment benefits. Would-be recipients would be required to look for work before a check is issued. It would be reviewed every 7 days. The benefits would expire upon a set date whether work was found or not.

That said, aside from emergency medical services, I don't think anyone who is here illegally should get a damn thing but a train ticket out of the country.
 
No where in there does it say that the parents have to stay in the country. You want to put a stop to illegals running over the border right before they have their kids? Let it be known the, ok, the child is an American citizen, but the parents will be instantly deported and the child because a ward of the state. See how many parents would be willing to give up their child.

Its time to stop playing Mr. Nice Guy to the rest of the world and start playing the *******. No countries every help us out with anything, so why should we suck up to every other country on the planet while ours goes down the drain because of illegals.
 
As left as I am I firmly believe in workfare. Anyone can fall upon hard times and there should be a saftey net to fall back on but there should be something in return. These recipetents should have to make up for the money/services used

Im not talking the government pay welfare out and then send them to a corporation to work im talking public service. paint grafitti over in the inner cities, clean up parks and roadways etc.

I don't claim to know how the system works everywhere but where I live its hard to get out once you are in. Lets say theres a woman with 3 kids, very little education/experience and her husband dies. She needs help. But when she gets on the system there is no offer of retraining just heres your cheque do as you see fit with it. She slowly starts to realize that after taxes,travel,and child care she has $100 or so less than if she is on welfare where is the inspiration to work. Sure you can say its her fault she's not educated but where does that get the problem. Any government that offers welfare should also offer other social programs attached to better the person and help them off the system not keep them on
 
Jeff Romard said:
As left as I am I firmly believe in workfare. Anyone can fall upon hard times and there should be a saftey net to fall back on but there should be something in return. These recipetents should have to make up for the money/services used

Im not talking the government pay welfare out and then send them to a corporation to work im talking public service. paint grafitti over in the inner cities, clean up parks and roadways etc.

I don't claim to know how the system works everywhere but where I live its hard to get out once you are in. Lets say theres a woman with 3 kids, very little education/experience and her husband dies. She needs help. But when she gets on the system there is no offer of retraining just heres your cheque do as you see fit with it. She slowly starts to realize that after taxes,travel,and child care she has $100 or so less than if she is on welfare where is the inspiration to work. Sure you can say its her fault she's not educated but where does that get the problem. Any government that offers welfare should also offer other social programs attached to better the person and help them off the system not keep them on
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Jeff,

While that is a valid point, and I am all for temporary assistance is someone falls on had times, that is not the issue here.

A major part of the immigration problem in the United States is people taking advantage of this provision in the 14th Amendment. Pregnant women will wait right up to the point of having their children, then will jump the border, knowing once they have the child, they will never be deported, because the child is instantly a U.S. citizen.
 
Good points all around.

Maybe it's because of my job, but if the average person saw the numbers of children being born to illegals they'd be amazed. Now remember I'm only seeing paperwork where the Father acknowledges paternity, which is a voluntary act. I shudder to think of the additional numbers added in of the children being born where the Father is not acknowledging paternity. I'm sure the total numbers are staggering.

It's not just one kid, many cases that I see the woman is on her third or fourth child with often different "alleged" fathers.

Of course no one in government will want to speak out and do anything, but raise our taxes to support this growing problem.

Like I said, I don't profess to have the answers. I'm just worried about the future of this country and what lies ahead.
 
It's not and never will be about actual logical and realistic need. As long as the government runs aid in compliance with its every growing list of politically correct rules and regulations (which have already been clearly defined 5,0000 years ago), it's a sham, a scam, a front, a shame, and a lie.

Man's attempt to replace God. Won't ever come close.

Ever.
 
America was built by immigrants. We all know this. We have our family trees to show for it. :)

Our mines, mills, railroads and factories were built by people who were born in other countries. Thousands came here from Germany, Ireland, Italy, Poland, China and many other countries. They came here to work.

Building mines, mills, railroads and factories was regarded even then as undesireable work by people who were born here. But there was a difference ~ work was available for anyone who wanted it. There was no welfare. The guv'mint would pay for a day's work. No one paid anyone to do nothing.

For my impolitic part, I still believe that illegal immigrants are called illegal for a reason. If folks wish to come here to pick peaches all day, fine. Just do it by the book. Send 'em back when they're done. If one of 'em has a baby here, fine. The baby is a citizen and may stay. The parents are not and may not. Now get on the train. Want visitation rights? Fine. Contact the American consulate when you get there and go through the proper channels. Have an enjoyable trip. Don't come back until you've got authorization.

If the churches, help centers and other "divine left" organizations wish to help these people, fine. But by Gawd, if I lose my job, they'd better be prepared to give me a car, a job and a house, too. :mad:
 
patrickrlewis said:
Jeff,

While that is a valid point, and I am all for temporary assistance is someone falls on had times, that is not the issue here.

.
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But Patrick how many do you think would border dive if the welfare system was changed. Advancments in the welfare system could have the potential to at least slow down illegal immigration
 
Jeff Romard said:
But Patrick how many do you think would border dive if the welfare system was changed. Advancments in the welfare system could have the potential to at least slow down illegal immigration
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Jeff,

That is why I said temporary, which implies a change in the system.
 
As I understand it back in the olden days of our grandparents and great-grandparents, people who immigrated here for work and a better life. What ever the reason, they couldn't find good stable work in their home country. "The streets are paved with gold" they would hear. As the article linked to says the streets in fact weren't paved at all, they were expected to pave them and they happily did so with a feeling of pride and accomplishment.

The "free ride" of the immigrants of yesterday was just having the ability to pursue a better life and they did so. A majority of today's (illegal) immigrants have a different free ride idea. Let's go to America we'll truly get a free ride, free health care, free food, free education, etc. They're in effect taxing and breaking down the system that the immigrants of yesteryear built!
 
Ileegal immigration and welfare...really two different issues.....

In Canada, especially our end of the country, there are a lot on social assistance...and as Jeff put it, some have figured that you make as much on social assistance as you do working at minimum level jobs....

That being said, I am a big proponent of work fare. I have no issues with those unable to find work...however, they should be required to work if you want the government to pay you.....not sitting at home; watching satellite TV, whilst have\ing a smoke and a beer.

Plenty of work that could be done. If not work; education so they can get work....Mothers....education, life skills...set up a cooperative daycare where the kids could go and be watched while the mother works or learns....

NO FREE RIDE...

Kirby - I agree with what you're saying. No one has the right to enter any country illegally...have a kid then be given a free pass.....medical/welfare etc.

Who's driving this amedment and why? Must be something in it (Maybe they own a chicken factory?)
 
thatmusicguy said:
Ileegal immigration and welfare...really two different issues..... -snip-
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I don't know Steve, I see it as a big part of the illegal immigration problem. Come to America (illegally) and get on welfare. I cannot believe some banks are actually giving credit cards and mortgages to illegal immigrants. I believe in some states, they aren't allowed to "discriminate" against illegal aliens for public services like food stamps. Medicaid, they don't even need that -- Hospitals have to treat any one, no questions asked. Have a cough? Go to the ER, get taken care of.. Don't pay the bill, pass the expense on to others' insurance companies or the people who pay out of pocket. At the end of the day hospitals have to replenish their supplies, staff has to get paid.. Who do you think eats the cost at the end of the day? Hard working and (legal) residents by increased insurance premiums or paying more out of pocket.

The entire social system and the regulations surrounding it, at least here in America is very broken. From immigration to social services and health care.

Will the elected officials in DC get off their collective arses and do something about it? Nah, they're to busy voting themselves pay raises!

In the media politicians are always talking about immigration and most say they shouldn't be here illegally. Yet in their next breath they're voting in laws that allow illegal immigrants to get drivers licenses but not requiring an SSN to apply for a license. What as the arguement for that? By allowing illiegals to get a license insurance rates would drop because there would be less unlicensed drivers on the road. Yeah, like that happened. Look at your car insurance policy the next time you renew.. Many states (NY is one of then) require that you carry insurance against unlicensed motorists. Right there, is money coming directly out of our own pockets to pay the cost of illegal immigration
 
Personally, I think that the first generation of "undocumented citizens" :sqwink: are working for a living. It's their children that are eligible for all the government handouts.

Once that second and third generation becomes used to living on the "dole" we are going to have a tremendous wave of now US citizens starting the vicious cycle of dependency of living off of the government.

Whatever work ethic their parents and grandparents may have had will be lost and the taxpayer is going to be burdened even more that we can even imagine.

Good discussion guys, and thanks for keeping it civil!

Steve:

Here's a short synopsis of the 14th amendment and it's original intentions.

The Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution was passed by both houses on 8th June and the 13th June, 1866. The amendment was designed to grant citizenship to and protect the civil liberties of recently freed slaves. It did this by prohibiting states from denying or abridging the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States, depriving any person of his life, liberty, or property without due process of law, or denying to any person within their jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Most Southern states refused to ratify the Fourteenth Amendment and therefore Radical Republicans such as Thaddeus Stevens, Charles Sumner, Benjamin Wade, Henry Winter Davies and Benjamin Butler urged the passing of further legislation to impose these measures on the former Confederacy. The result was the 1867 Reconstruction Acts that divided the South into five military districts controlled by martial law, proclaimed universal manhood suffrage and required the new state constitutions to be drawn up.
 
According to T.H. Marshall, the concept of social citizenship lies at the core of the welfare state because the granting of social rights is the sole criteria by which to justify welfare states.

According to Gosta Esping-Andersen (1992), social rights are granted based on citizenship and not performance in the market. In a state where social services are available as a matter or right and not as a matter of performance, the individuals are no longer dependent on the cash nexus and are therefore no longer "commodified" (a commodity).

Decommodification is an important concept when understanding certain types of welfare states. If the level of decommodification is high, the well-being of individuals is no longer entirely dependent on the market and the cash nexus. Wherever social rights are guaranteed by the state, the commodity status of individuals is reduced and benefits are made available as a matter of need. Welfare states vary in their level of decommodification.

But, a welfare state cannot survive guaranteed social "rights" without strictly defining social "need" and "citizenship".

In essence, as long as the illegals perform services cheap and do what no American would consider doing as regular employment, everything will remain status quo.

Where the danger lies ahead will be the growing disparity between the middle class and upper class as the burden of paying for the additional welfare costs rests on the backs of that middle class while the upper class reaps every reward from it.

Kirby : While the intent was as you said, it is equally important to note that the slaves were legally considered citizens before the 14th Amendment was adopted, otherwise it would've failed. The 14th defined States Rights in not being able to limit nor define US citizenship.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Again, the amendment relies on citizenship as its root.

What the government is saying is that "it" is in this country's "social conscious" to provide humanitarian relief to any and all within the borders of the country BUT they get to define what "social consciousness" is. These, the same who have done everything in their powers to replicate a God, a creator, in their own image, now further entangle themselves in another facet of governmentally imposed morality....charity.
 
Deejay Dan said:
The entire social system and the regulations surrounding it, at least here in America is very broken. From immigration to social services and health care.
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Thats what I am talking about there. And before I get kicked we need alot of social reform here in Canada too.

The odds of changing the 14th ammendment are somewhere between slim and none..At least in our lifetime. Government and all parties are propped up by big business. Big business hires the illegals to get cheap labour so that end is out.

Start with welfare reform. How many would run to the land of milk and honey if the milk and honey aren't there anymore? The cases of pregnant border divers would drop and from what I read its about 30% of the problem

Follow that up with cracking down on those who hire illegals. Start handing out fines and jail time and see how long Hector has a job then.

But at the end of the day it would be up to government to handle these two things and as I said before they really don't want to piss off big business. They also know that by doing this and deporting all the illegals the economy would drop and in a hurry

The talk will be there for a long time the action is no time soon
 
Jeff Romard said:
Start with welfare reform. How many would run to the land of milk and honey if the milk and honey aren't there anymore? The cases of pregnant border divers would drop and from what I read its about 30% of the problem

Follow that up with cracking down on those who hire illegals. Start handing out fines and jail time and see how long Hector has a job then.
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Spoken like a true law and order conservative!

There might be hope for you yet!! :sqwink:
 
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