Subs - 21" vs 18"

[rickryan.com]

I have to admit, DJ Wes has got me all hot'n bothered about the Yorkie LS801p. I'm still just the least bit concerned about a 137lb cabinet as well as having to unload these onto grass (tent events). I'm also looking at the Carvin TRx2121 and thinking of pairing them with a Carvin 3800 amp. The Yorkie would be pushing 1500 watts into a single 18". The Carvin would be pushing 1150 into each cabinet. Wes says (and I believe him) that a single yorkie will do the majority of the type events I do (weddings). I think the Carvin would as well. If my math is correct, I'd be looking at $2500 for a pair of yorkies and $1900 for the Carvin combo. If the Carvin amp dies, it's a simple change of parts. If the yorkie dies, it's back to a repair shop. I also have a lot less problem unloading those carvins onto grass (tent jobs) as well, not to mention, I could actually hand truck that 80lbs up steps when necessary. The yorkies are going to be a load-in problem at a few venues.

I think the real consideration is what kind of tone would the yorkie produce vs the tone of a 21" (but loaded into a smaller cabinet). I've heard there's a really distinct difference in the clarity of a 21 over an 18 but no first hand experience here. I'm not in any hurry as the JBL M-pros sound great and not a hint of problems with them. Your thoughts are appreciated.

 

[soundinmotiondj]

Generally, I prefer the tone qualities of the 15" over larger direct radiator subs. The 18" and 21" do get louder...but not enough to justify the weight or cabinet size. If you need more SPL, bring more cabinets. In most cases, even 15" subs are heavy enough to require two people to move over any non-rolling surface. I can not imagine trying to move a 18" or 21" sub without help.

 

[rickryan.com]

Generally, I prefer the tone qualities of the 15" over larger direct radiator subs. The 18" and 21" do get louder...but not enough to justify the weight or cabinet size. If you need more SPL, bring more cabinets. In most cases, even 15" subs are heavy enough to require two people to move over any non-rolling surface. I can not imagine trying to move a 18" or 21" sub without help.

I can dead-lift 80 pretty easy. 130 would really be reaching for it, even on a dolly. I have a single 15", an old Peavey Subcompact 15. Like you, I also love the tone but anytime you get to a larger setup it's just lost. The current rig is handling those larger rooms but there are times where I just feel I'm pushing it a bit more than I'm comfortable with.

 

[ahoustondj]

Design your system with built in redundancy so that if something goes down you can always bypass the failed component and keep going. I rarely use just one sub. I don't care if there is another one out in the Van. If your one sub goes down there will be a definite knowledge of the loss of bass especially if you are running bass only through that sub. Another rule of thumb is that if a component is too heavy to lift then it should have wheels attached and double handles for lifting

 

[DJ Wes]

Remember the Yorkie 18 comes with wheels, tilt-back capability and a pull/lift handle on top. I've taken it upstairs by myself before. But I don't like using them for weddings because they are just too much sub for the job. I prefer my LS700p for weddings and smaller corporate events.

 

[rickryan.com]

Remember the Yorkie 18 comes with wheels, tilt-back capability and a pull/lift handle on top. I've taken it upstairs by myself before. But I don't like using them for weddings because they are just too much sub for the job. I prefer my LS700p for weddings and smaller corporate events.

Can you ever have too much sub?
(just kidding, yea, I know it's possible to go overboard sometimes)
Those yorkies are tempting but I'm really questioning whether those 21s will hit lower while still being lighter weight/size. I would be hitting them with about 400 less watts per cab.

 

[soundinmotiondj]

I can dead-lift 80 pretty easy. 130 would really be reaching for it, even on a dolly. I have a single 15", an old Peavey Subcompact 15. Like you, I also love the tone but anytime you get to a larger setup it's just lost. The current rig is handling those larger rooms but there are times where I just feel I'm pushing it a bit more than I'm comfortable with.

Then bring three of it's friends along....

I get that many people claim to want a "one box" solution for sub frequencies. My problem is that the difference between my smallest gigs (50 people, 900 sqft, 2 subs), a typical gig (200 people, 3k sqft, 4 subs), and my largest gigs (1500 people, 20k sqft, 8 subs) DEMANDS a modular system. I have ten subs. Each is a folded horn loaded with a single 10" driver, and weighs <50 pounds.

Now that I have a modular system, I can not wrap my head around the one box solution.

 

[rickryan.com]

Then bring three of it's friends along....

I get that many people claim to want a "one box" solution for sub frequencies. My problem is that the difference between my smallest gigs (50 people, 900 sqft, 2 subs), a typical gig (200 people, 3k sqft, 4 subs), and my largest gigs (1500 people, 20k sqft, 8 subs) DEMANDS a modular system. I have ten subs. Each is a folded horn loaded with a single 10" driver, and weighs <50 pounds.

Now that I have a modular system, I can not wrap my head around the one box solution.

tilt. Now you're dragging me in another direction (good thing). What horn are you using and what amp(s)? Also, what kind of event are you doing with 1500 people? I can tell you, as a musician, some of the sexiest gigs I ever remember was when we'd have a large stage with double-18 subs that spanned the width. I usually play 5 string bass and have to admit I probably spent too much time whacking that low-B and grinning from ear to ear.

 

[soundinmotiondj]

Can you ever have too much sub?

It's more about "return on investment" for me. Taking a reasonable 15" sub as a baseline....a 18" sub will be 50% heavier, 30% larger, and produce 3-ish dB more SPL. That's not a good trade off FOR ME. I would not use 18" or 21" subs unless they were part of a permanent install. And I don't like "dual loaded" cabinets either. I only recommend dual loaded subs if you have a box truck and roadies.

As a single op...I have no single cabinet or box that weighs more than 50 pounds. There are other valid ways to optimize a PA system...but that is my way.

 

[ahoustondj]

Just getting an 18" or 21" sub would not guarantee one the best sounding Bass. Proper processing can greatly improve the sound and quality of a speaker. For instance, a 15" sub with proper gain and processing can greatly outperform a 18" sub that is lacking a quality signal source. The design of the sub also is of great importance. A Folded horn can give you more "boom" but with a "punch" vs a Direct Reflecting Transducer from that same league. Crossover points are another determining factor.

 

[soundinmotiondj]

tilt. Now you're dragging me in another direction (good thing). What horn are you using and what amp(s)? Also, what kind of event are you doing with 1500 people?

I use Bill Fitzmaurice's Titan 39's, 14" wide, BP102 loaded - I have ten. Given the new(er) designs, I'd build 18" wide Lab12 loaded versions today. I typically hide the subs under 24in tall stage risers, and my SUV can hold subs up to 28" wide or two stacked 14" wide cabinets. My tops are DR200's, and I have ten of these. With these cabinets, and proper sub placement, I can run the system "flat to 40 Hz."

I use Behringer EP2500 amps...I have eight. Overall I am happy with the reliability, price, and performance of the EP2500's. I hard limit the subs to 40v, and the tops to 35v. So, I don't need huge amps...but I do need a lot of them. I am REALLY looking at getting new lightweight amps. The problem is that I need at least six amps, but eight amps is MUCH easier for me to work with...at $600/amp, that adds really add up quickly. This number of amps allows me to run three 2.1 systems at the same time (two/four tops run stereo, two/four subs run mono...requires at least three amp channels which requires two amps). This number of setups is required at some dance competitions...where there is a main ballroom, and similarly sized practice room, and a smaller room for teaching or workshops.

The 1500 people events are professional dance competitions (think "Dancing with the Stars"...but west coast swing or C&W), or high school proms (I do about one a year...as a sub-contractor to a production company). These are VERY different kinds of events...but both at that large scale.

 

[TwinSpinDJ]

Rickryan, you are at a crossroads. I don't use the Yorkville 18" unless I am able to "roll" it on hard surfaces from my DJ trailer ramp inside to the venue. If stairs are involved, I don't use it. I'm fortunate to have another system (RCF) with matching ART800A 15" subs (400 watt ea). They weigh about 92 lbs. but transport easily on a two-wheeler or I can lift on to a Rock-n-Roller to transport. Pneumatic wheels on the R-n-R enable me to cross grass pretty easily, even crushed rock driveways.

When I need extra thump and unable to use the Yorkville LS801PB due to stairs/unusual load-in, I bring the two RCF subs and couple them in the center of my console setup. They do the job, especially when the Yorkville NX750PBs are also allowing 40HZ to pass through the mains for added base. However, I use the 90hz when using with subs.

And, if I have a larger venue where I need more presence, I bring along the RCF Tops and subs and add them to the footprint. Works for me.

Can't comment on the difference between the 18 and 21" Yorkville subs, but Loneavenger would be happy to fill you in.

Go for the LS801PB. I can tell you from experience that that sub with the York Mains have a sweet sound when playing cocktail/dinner music. Low volume tops and adjust the sub for complimentary fill.

 

[drzinc]

Rick If can suggest another product that punches both the Yorkville and the Carvin in their collective buts. Have a look over at JTR speakers. Their Orbit shifters and Captivator-PRO subs are what legends are made of. Even their Growlers (12" driver) punch hard when run in pairs or more. Actually 2 growlers are very nice, two shifters can produce the legendary brown note.

http://jtrspeakers.com/portable/captivator-pro/
http://jtrspeakers.com/portable/orbit-shifter/
http://jtrspeakers.com/portable/growler/

 

[ahoustondj]

Lots of Options out there. JTRs, Danleys, Yorkvilles, JBLs etc. The key is to choose the design that best meets most of your needs. Bigger subs means larger spaces. If at most venues you do space is a limitation then it is fruitless to have big subs.

 

[rickryan.com]

Lots of Options out there. JTRs, Danleys, Yorkvilles, JBLs etc. The key is to choose the design that best meets most of your needs. Bigger subs means larger spaces. If at most venues you do space is a limitation then it is fruitless to have big subs.

Speaking of space limitations, the first couple of seasons, there were a lot of the venues I worked that were small. Not so much anymore. While there still are some small setups, the room sizes and productions are getting larger. Not sure if that's due to the lighting component or not but I suspect it's helping push us in that direction. The main thing I don't want to do is stay stagnant. I always want to be improving and pushing what I'm doing, just like most of you guys.

 

[Ausumm]

Here's a different point of view, Rick. (literally)
It depends on how you feel about the LOOK of one big honkin' sub in the middle of your setup
(or worse yet UNDER your table) compared to the symmetrical advantage of TWO subs.
I know subs are not directional and you don't HAVE to put it in the middle...
but some of us anal retentive types are quite stuck on symmetry.
Also, as Canute pointed out...having two always wins in case one craps out in the middle of a gig.

 

[oldschooldj]

Rick,

I have eight of the EV-TX1181 subs (18" singles), 74 lbs each and very manageable for one person. I use two at most small events and go up from there. I recently did an outside Wedding Reception, for a couple hundred people with two of the subs and two EV-TX1122 tops (12" tops). Subs in the center of the driveway (coupled) with the tops spread 20' feet from each sub 44' spread on the tops. I used one EV-Q1212 amp and a DCONE processor.

All the tables were spread around an area about 50 yards wide by 75 yards deep, with a dozen giant old oak trees spread in the area. The sound was excellent, people danced everywhere. I sent 45hz-100hz to the subs with a plus 3db gain in the processor and 100hz-18Khz to the tops with a minus 1.5 db reduction in the processor. The bass thumped you in the chest and was tight and clean, the tops were clear as bells. I received several compliments from guest who play in bands that it was the best outside sound they had heard short of a high end concert and wondered how I got so few of speakers to put out so much sound so clear. I told the EV-DCONE. I run my mixer with no gain in the EQ.

I tried the IPR3000 amps you like to use on these subs with the crossover and with the EV-DCONE, they sounded great, the amps run out of power but if the IPR5000/7500 ever come out you would be set. I did not like the IPR's (as I have stated before) when driven hard on the tops.

Go over to Sam Ash and see Sean, tell him Ray Jackson sent you. They have the subs in stock and listen to them. Don't let them try and talk you into the dual 18" (TX2181), they do not sound as good as a pair of TX1181, I think it is the boxes, the TX2181 is not in a box twice as big as the TX1181. I drove a TX2181 side by side with a pair of TX1181 and there was a noticeble difference in sound between the two. Plus the weight is more manageable on the singles and by adding more you have much more flexibilty on placement.

Thanks Ray J.

 

[ahoustondj]

Rick,

I have eight of the EV-TX1181 subs (18" singles), 74 lbs each and very manageable for one person. I use two at most small events and go up from there. I recently did an outside Wedding Reception, for a couple hundred people with two of the subs and two EV-TX1122 tops (12" tops). Subs in the center of the driveway (coupled) with the tops spread 20' feet from each sub 44' spread on the tops. I used one EV-Q1212 amp and a DCONE processor.

All the tables were spread around an area about 50 yards wide by 75 yards deep, with a dozen giant old oak trees spread in the area. The sound was excellent, people danced everywhere. I sent 45hz-100hz to the subs with a plus 3db gain in the processor and 100hz-18Khz to the tops with a minus 1.5 db reduction in the processor. The bass thumped you in the chest and was tight and clean, the tops were clear as bells. I received several compliments from guest who play in bands that it was the best outside sound they had heard short of a high end concert and wondered how I got so few of speakers to put out so much sound so clear. I told the EV-DCONE. I run my mixer with no gain in the EQ.

I tried the IPR3000 amps you like to use on these subs with the crossover and with the EV-DCONE, they sounded great, the amps run out of power but if the IPR5000/7500 ever come out you would be set. I did not like the IPR's (as I have stated before) when driven hard on the tops.

Go over to Sam Ash and see Sean, tell him Ray Jackson sent you. They have the subs in stock and listen to them. Don't let them try and talk you into the dual 18" (TX2181), they do not sound as good as a pair of TX1181, I think it is the boxes, the TX2181 is not in a box twice as big as the TX1181. I drove a TX2181 side by side with a pair of TX1181 and there was a noticeble difference in sound between the two. Plus the weight is more manageable on the singles and by adding more you have much more flexibilty on placement.

Thanks Ray J.

That was a damn good assessment and description if I ever heard one. You are in the minority here when it comes to that kind of speaker spread. Some people do not fully understand how coverage can be achieved with proper speaker placement. I did not have to be there to believe you when you said it sounded great. What you said makes perfect sense.

I must say though that there are some dual subs out there that put out some serious bass. The JBL SRX 728s come to mind but yes they are heavy and power hungry! Best suited for clubs and enclosed spaces with a lot of people.

 

[steve149]

There are many ways to move a lot of air .. one option is to go to a larger driver (say 21") .. another is to go with a driver with a longer excursion (like some of the killer woofers in the Danley and JTR subs), another is to manage the process effectively (DSP) and finally use more than one driver or more than 1 cab.

The problem I see with really large drivers (21"+) is the driver cone starts to deflect and break up and ripples of sound will form on the surface causing distortion .. mainly because it's tough to make a driver that wide and be very stiff at the same time, while minimizing weight.

So it's a game .. balancing all the parameters. There is no right answer, but I would avoid the 21" beasts, unless you are buying top of the line gear (EAW, etc.) as it's just too difficult to make a cone that big both stiff and light.

Get the 18s .. doubles or 2 singles are pretty much equivalent. Doubles are more stable if they are stacked and support multiple tops as well. Singles can be stacked maybe 2 high with a smaller top.

Having heard Carvin 18" subs, I would personally pass and either get the standard double (JBL SRX 728) or go with the 18s. 15s will be similar for those drivers with high excursions or well controlled movement, but typically dollar for dollar, the sweet spot is with the single 18s.

 

[soundinmotiondj]

Subs in the center of the driveway (coupled) with the tops spread 20' feet from each sub 44' spread on the tops.
...
I sent 45hz-100hz to the subs with a plus 3db gain in the processor and 100hz-18Khz to the tops with a minus 1.5 db reduction in the processor.

Music to my ears.

At 100Hz, a wavelength is 11.3ft long. So, separating the two by two wavelengths is 22.6ft. That's the minimum separation distance. After all these years, it still amazes me how few people are willing to spread tops by even that distance. So, cudos.

Also, you have a 4.5dB advantage for the subs (+3db) over the tops (-1.5dB). Again, cudos.

Based on the frequency spread of the crossover, the signal to the subs and tops are attenuated by:

Subs: 10* log(1.1oct/8.65oct) = -8.95dB
Tops: 10* log(7.55oct/8.65oct) = -0.59dB

So, the subs should be given just over an 8dB advantage relative to the tops...based on the signal strength that each type of cabinet will receive from the crossover. Even so, kudos for doing anything to help the subs out in this case. The mis-understanding of this signal issue from a crossover is the #1 cause of the "power hungry sub" myths.

Any article on setting gain structure that does not talk about this should be taken with a grain of salt. There is more on this method here:

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/how_do_you_set_system_gain_structure/P8/