What to do when customers bring in CDR's

I went to Karaoke Sat night. The KJ would have gladly accepted my burned compliation cd if he did not have the version on his computer.

They are a multi-op with 12 or more systems that buys 1 copy of all the music and puts it on all their computers. Hey it's better than some people.

I find it nice cause thay actually print books with 85,000 songs in them and you can pick any version you want.

DJ Cam said:

I went to Karaoke Sat night. The KJ would have gladly accepted my burned compliation cd if he did not have the version on his computer.

They are a multi-op with 12 or more systems that buys 1 copy of all the music and puts it on all their computers. Hey it's better than some people.

I find it nice cause thay actually print books with 85,000 songs in them and you can pick any version you want.

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You've got to be kidding you don't have a problem with this pirate... he has stolen 11 x 85,000 songs from the manu's by the very fact that they have only one set copied to 12 systems... they only have ONE legit system and 11 pirated systems.

I'm sorry but even if I didn't turn this pirate in I certainly wouldn't be impressed nor would I EVER patronize a venue where I know they are using his company to host karaoke.

It's companies like this that are why the RIAA and KAPA were developed and also why the cost of music is still high... if you steal from a department store and this theft becomes more and more prevelant merchants have no choice but to raise prices to compensate for their losses... karaoke manus have done much the same thing, while prices haven't consistantly gone up over the years, they haven't gotten any cheaper either, even though the cost of manufatureing them has.

The very fact that a KJ takes CDR's shows a lack of resposibility and is in my mind un-professional. There is no way a KJ can tell if the CDR came from a legit copy or was downloaded from limewire... Of course we can't be the karaoke police but we do need to up hold the integrity of our companies reputation and just say "no".

Even though my collection isn't anywhere near 85,000 tracks I'm still comfortable telling a punter, no. Even at the possible cost of that singer leaving... I find most of these singers are water drinkers anyway.

toqer said:

The other night I had some lady named Nancy bring in a CDR. I told her no, but maybe we can *BUY* it from tricerasoft.

I loaded up the tricerasoft website, found her song (same version she had), told her it would cost $1.49 and I would get it for her cause she's so nice. She dropped a $5 in my tipjar.

Net profit: $3.51, for doing the right thing.

Cam, you need rethink things. You really shouldn't support that guy.

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I go out 1 or 2 times a year. He is not huring my bottom line he is 25 miles away from the closest place I work. I will admit he is a whesil. It doesn't bother me, we have fun when we go there.

People get what is coming to them, they always do. I do find it impressive that he atleast has 1 copy as every othe KJ in the area except a few just download everything.

DJ Cam said:

... He is not huring my bottom line he is 25 miles away from the closest place I work..... I do find it impressive that he atleast has 1 copy as every othe KJ in the area except a few just download everything.

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Cam, all due respect, I took issue with a couple of the above quoted statements...

Firstly, 25 miles IS your market. I drive 45-50 miles one way to work. I pass a lot of bars between home and my target job. Suppose I make 12 copies of my discs and put my family and close friends to work for me at those bars...and suppose, since I have no overhead, that I do it for half price. How impressed would you be with me then?

We have a core group of KJs in the area all sharing the same 90,000 songs or so...I can easily name 7 KJs operating off of them...and people come to my show and wonder why I dont have as many songs...even if they bought an original for each, having THAT many kjs operating off of the one source disc is wrong on too many levels...not fair to the competition, not fair to the manufacturers, AND BLATANTLY illegal, and a very easy, provable prosecution...either for a manu, or for a competitor to claim unfair business practice.

They may not be hurting your bottom line where you can see it obviously, but they are taking jobs, and singers away from legit operators who may not feel the same as you. They may also be bringing down the median rate of pay, precluding you from raises.

DJ Cam said:

They are a multi-op with 12 or more systems that buys 1 copy of all the music and puts it on all their computers. Hey it's better than some people.

I find it nice cause thay actually print books with 85,000 songs in them and you can pick any version you want.

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The problem here is that unlike a burned backup or ripped MP3 for one site use, what these people are doing ( multi-site use from a single license) IS completely illegal. That is not a artist group issue alone. Copywrite infringement is a no-no. If they get caught it's more than fines, it's jail time.

jokerswild said:

.......The very fact that a KJ takes CDR's shows a lack of resposibility and is in my mind un-professional. There is no way a KJ can tell if the CDR came from a legit copy or was downloaded from limewire .....

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....and you've stated the reason I disagree with the statement above.. Do you truly believe that just because you bought your disc at your buddy's retail store or a "reputable" online source that YOUR discs must all be legit? Do you have any idea how many pirated versions of SC, SGB, Dangerous, Chartbuster and other mfrs. are out there? Labeled the same, sound the same, look the same. The only difference is the code on the spindle hole, which can also be duplicated. MP3s are even more impossible to be sure of.

In other words, we can't be any more sure of our own collections, despite precautions, than what is handed to us by the singers. I can virtually guarantee that if you have more than a couple of hundred discs ( or that many worth of MP3 tracks) that you own some pirated music, whether you are aware of it or not.

As a matter of fact, if you bought Dangerous, SGB, or KJ Tools in the last few years, they are almost CERTAINLY pirated, no matter how they are packed and labeled, or where you got them. The same goes for the downloads.

So who am I to stop a customer from giving me a burned copy that's for his/her personal use, as opposed to that KJ that Cam described? It's legal (on disc), ethical, and keeps the singer happy ( our job), thus making it professional too.

BTW- unless you have SEEN the license agreement, you can't be sure of ANY downloads.

Sound Choice is considered a reputable company, yet they ran into licensing problems even though they have been around a long time. They just never got caught until recently. The same may be said for any downloading source....

DJ Cam said:

They are a multi-op with 12 or more systems that buys 1 copy of all the music and puts it on all their computers. Hey it's better than some people.

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Cam, here is another thought...I would rather have one pirate in my area with 85,000 illegal songs than to have a multi op sharing one library of 10,000 legally purchased songs! My logic is, one guy stealing 90,000 songs and setting up shop costs the manufacturer of course, but only affects one venue, and one pool of singers.

In essence, the multi op is a bigger threat because he is stealing the same songs multiple times, and operating in more venues, taking from the pool of available singers which makes it hard for a legit operator to keep an audience. The multi op thief is a MUCH bigger harm to the industry than a single op pirate, even if they did purchase the initial library!!

toqer said:

Joe,

1) One of the 4 qualifiers a jury/judge has to examine in a copyright infringement case is intent.

2) Also, i've asked these manu's if they're fully licensed. They've said yes.

(

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1) Agreed, no argument. Unlike Cam's example, when I play a customers disc I have no intent to defraud, copy, or profit from the use of that disc.


2) .....and you expected them to tell you NO? Sound Choice, as an example, has produced and distributed a truckload of discs that were not properly kicensed, many of which have been pulled from the market. If you own any SC tracks, chances are some are unlicensed. SGB? From what I understand, NONE are licensed properly. Zoom? May not be licensed in the U.S. - same for DK.....all "reputable" manufacturers.

Toq, I understand the legal situation. What I meant by bringing up the unlicesed music in virtually ALL hosts collections is that there is no difference between using our discs and using the customers' in terms of ethics or professionalism. I own all of the sets mentioned above, and purchased them from reputable dealers. As far as I knew at the time of purchase, they were legal licensed discs. At that time SC hadn't been hit with there problems, nor had the others, Now that I've discovered the problems will I throw thousands of dollars worth of music out? Would you? Of course not. I bought them under the impression of legality and with no malicious intent. If my singers hand me a disc, I assume they did the same, because they, like us, have absolutely no way of knowing otherwise.

Bottom line: There is absolutely nothing wrong with loading a customer's disc, and I will continue to do so.


Toq, I am as virulently anti-pirate as you are, believe me. However, we have no right to assume that singers' ethics are any lower than ours.

JoeChartreuse said:

Toq, I understand the legal situation. What I meant by bringing up the unlicesed music in virtually ALL hosts collections is that there is no difference between using our discs and using the customers' in terms of ethics or professionalism. I own all of the sets mentioned above, and purchased them from reputable dealers. As far as I knew at the time of purchase, they were legal licensed discs. At that time SC hadn't been hit with there problems, nor had the others, Now that I've discovered the problems will I throw thousands of dollars worth of music out? Would you? Of course not. I bought them under the impression of legality and with no malicious intent. If my singers hand me a disc, I assume they did the same, because they, like us, have absolutely no way of knowing otherwise.

Bottom line: There is absolutely nothing wrong with loading a customer's disc, and I will continue to do so.

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Joe: I'd agree with you totally on this statement if you were talking about the customer presenting a factory labled CDG disc from a known manufacturer... not a CDR with some handwritten lable on it....

jokerswild said:

Joe: I'd agree with you totally on this statement if you were talking about the customer presenting a factory labled CDG disc from a known manufacturer... not a CDR with some handwritten lable on it....

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Well, I have backed up my entire collection. The labels on the backups are white with black printing. They look nothing like the Mfrs. labels, and they are clearly labeled "Back-up Disc.) When I first started backing up my discs I had no label program and hand labeled them. Keep in mind that backing up a disc is completely legal.

I give my singers the benefit of the doubt, up to a point. I test all obviously home burned discs on a device that I carry for this purpose. If I ever find a problem during testing, or if the quality of the disc is so bad that I KNOW it's a pirate, I no longer accept ANY discs from that singer.

One thing about "factory labeled" discs- they may not be. I have seen some really bad label dupes. Since there is absolutely no reason to dupe a factory label for a back-up, I will also assume piracy and skip that disc too.

Other than that: They want 'em, I load 'em.

JoeChartreuse said:

Well, I have backed up my entire collection. The labels on the backups are white with black printing. They look nothing like the Mfrs. labels, and they are clearly labeled "Back-up Disc.) When I first started backing up my discs I had no label program and hand labeled them. Keep in mind that backing up a disc is completely legal.

I give my singers the benefit of the doubt, up to a point. I test all obviously home burned discs on a device that I carry for this purpose. If I ever find a problem during testing, or if the quality of the disc is so bad that I KNOW it's a pirate, I no longer accept ANY discs from that singer.

One thing about "factory labeled" discs- they may not be. I have seen some really bad label dupes. Since there is absolutely no reason to dupe a factory label for a back-up, I will also assume piracy and skip that disc too.

Other than that: They want 'em, I load 'em.

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That sounds like a reasonable way to do it... tell me what is this device you use to test the CDR's with.... and how does it work. I'm guessing you have what would be considered a toy cdg player with you or is it something more complex?

jokerswild said:

That sounds like a reasonable way to do it... tell me what is this device you use to test the CDR's with.... and how does it work. I'm guessing you have what would be considered a toy cdg player with you or is it something more complex?

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Much easier to use, but tough to design ( remember my EE background). I took my older QuicDisc duplicator apart. It already comes with scan and test firmware incorporated. I added space ( the old nachine reads fine but can no longer burn), and putting in a breadboard with connections to an EPROM loaded with an updateable anti-virus program, and incorporated it into the test sequence. Then I stuck it in a smaller case ( I no longer needed the receiving, or burning drive). It scans the disc for errors ( too many on a clean looking disc means poor quality recording), does a physical test on the disc for quality, and checks for viruses in case it's an MP3 disc. It also checks ( built in software from Microboards) and notes explicit lyric codes.

Nifty device, but a pain to build. If I need another, I'll wait until it comes out by another mfr....

It's a one button test that takes under 2 minutes. As long as I have the disc in advance it's no problem.

JoeChartreuse said:

Much easier to use, but tough to design ( remember my EE background). I took my older QuicDisc duplicator apart. It already comes with scan and test firmware incorporated. I added space ( the old nachine reads fine but can no longer burn), and putting in a breadboard with connections to an EPROM loaded with an updateable anti-virus program, and incorporated it into the test sequence. Then I stuck it in a smaller case ( I no longer needed the receiving, or burning drive). It scans the disc for errors ( too many on a clean looking disc means poor quality recording), does a physical test on the disc for quality, and checks for viruses in case it's an MP3 disc. It also checks ( built in software from Microboards) and notes explicit lyric codes.

Nifty device, but a pain to build. If I need another, I'll wait until it comes out by another mfr....

It's a one button test that takes under 2 minutes. As long as I have the disc in advance it's no problem.

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Well I must admit comming from a Luddite... that's pretty impressive....

jokerswild said:

Well I must admit comming from a Luddite... that's pretty impressive....

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You gotta remember, tyhe reason I'm a Luddite is, through my engineeering skills, I truly Know the limits of technology, as I am on the cutting edge...