What to do when customers bring in CDR's
- Thread starter toqer
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I don't have a CD+g player. I don't even own one anymore. Problem solved.
When I did carry a player it was never a problem. Whatever it takes to make a customer happy. What do I care if customers burn karaoke cd's? The cd+g production industry shot itself not the end users.
When I did carry a player it was never a problem. Whatever it takes to make a customer happy. What do I care if customers burn karaoke cd's? The cd+g production industry shot itself not the end users.
I don't take customer burned copies either...
1. I don't know if it's a legit copy that they burned from a legal download
2. Quality control... I don't want some crappily done CDG with bad music or band graphics playing.... makes me look bad.
I've spent too much time ripping my CDGs to near perfection... and I pride myself on having the best quality CPS system for CDG and other music playback and if I play something that skips, jitters, or is over all bad in graphics or music this is a direct reflection on myself and my equipment.
1. I don't know if it's a legit copy that they burned from a legal download
2. Quality control... I don't want some crappily done CDG with bad music or band graphics playing.... makes me look bad.
I've spent too much time ripping my CDGs to near perfection... and I pride myself on having the best quality CPS system for CDG and other music playback and if I play something that skips, jitters, or is over all bad in graphics or music this is a direct reflection on myself and my equipment.
I don't think you know enough about the production industry to say that. What they charged too much? Restricted themselved to CDG only? Toq's gonna give you a little education right now.
Karaoke costs a lot because the licensing is akin commercials or movie. It's called a Sync license. IE Sync video to audio.
When American companies began making karaoke, it only required the audio portion of the mechanical license. Having to pay Sync was a result of the Disney/Abko case and resulted in karaoke costing more to produce. With just audio, an artist and songwriter only get like $0.025 per copy of a song. Sync licenses allow them to negotiate whatever they want.
Some artists were cool about it and just charged the regular mechanical, plus a little extra.
Other artists went nuts and said "KARAOKE? PEOPLE SINGING MY SONGS? NO SIR, NOT WITHOUT GIVING ME MILLIONS!"
Still, other artists simply said "No karaoke at all".
What this did was create a black market in karaoke. Studios out of reach of US jurisdiction (china,korea) began producing karaoke tracks without the artists sync permission.
Ya, I hate the people that run the company but... Let's say you're sound choice. What do you tell your customers when you're trying to do everything by the book, stay legal, pay off artists for sync fee's and some foriegn company is dumping karaoke into your market without doing things by the book?
This all started around 2000 or so.
Also around the same time, CDG capable CDR's came on the market, and PC technology.
Now I can't blame tech for the current piracy woes, basically tech is neutral (like guns) and it's up to the individual what they do with it. One of the reason i'm pissed at Sound Choice is thier constant stance that PC karaoke is illegal. Certainly the way they went about fighting the problem wasn't the best choice, but I cannot simply put all the blame on them.
The lack of respect for American copyright is the problem here. It's gone beyond just being a problem for CDG manu, it's a problem for the KJ as well since now we have tons of little KJ's running around with lappies and pirated karaoke.
Let's compound the problem for Manu's and KJ's even further by remembering there is much more demand for original music than there is karaoke. We are a niche market. The total revenue generated from straight DJ's and sales of non karaoke music dwarf that of KJ's and karaoke music. The manu's could make more money just selling original tunes, just like we could probably make more money being straight DJ's.
Conclusion?
KJ's and Manu's love karaoke, cause most of us certainly aren't in it for the money.
The manu's problem is my problem now. Now maybe that I've explained what the situation is you'll make it your problem too.
G
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Back to the original post...
I don't play CDRs. VDJ can do it but I choose not to for the same reasons Rob stated.
When somebody hands me a CDR I ask them to go look the song up in the book and, when you have over 70,000 titles (including duplicates and vocal tracks), chances are their selection will be there. If I don't have it, oh well, but I will make note of it and may get it.
I don't play CDRs. VDJ can do it but I choose not to for the same reasons Rob stated.
When somebody hands me a CDR I ask them to go look the song up in the book and, when you have over 70,000 titles (including duplicates and vocal tracks), chances are their selection will be there. If I don't have it, oh well, but I will make note of it and may get it.
I agree, I may only have a mere 5000+ tracks but there is a good enough base that most will find something to sing. If there happens to be an internet connection I have no problem purchaseing a song or two... for a fee of course.
But, yeah what we play has a huge reflection on us as a DJ/KJ, play junk and your no better than anyother DJ/KJ... play high quality tracks and you'll reciever much more respect and a larger following then pleasing the one guy with his CDR that one time while compromising your reputation for a quality show.
Karaoke Satan was in Karaoke Hell chat, chatting with karaoke demons minions about your 70,000 song collection.
Even at best, it takes 15 minutes per CDG to rip. About 18 songs per CDG Giving you a grand total of over 3888 CDG's.
At 15min per rip, times 3888 CDG's, if you didn't sleep and ripped CDG's 24hours a day, 7 days a week it would take you 6 years to rip your collection.
Just Satans observation.
G
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Unless you happen to have more than one computer working on it and the help of partners. As long as there is one copy per each copy on a drive then everything is OK.
My partners had music I didn't have and I had music that they didn't. We each went out and bought the CDGs that were missing from each other's collection and then copied the files.
When new music is purchased, multiple copies are purchased but only one rip is done. Why spend all that time riping if you don't have to?
The same is done with other music and videos.
My partners had music I didn't have and I had music that they didn't. We each went out and bought the CDGs that were missing from each other's collection and then copied the files.
When new music is purchased, multiple copies are purchased but only one rip is done. Why spend all that time riping if you don't have to?
The same is done with other music and videos.
Alright, I am going to back up and take the unpopular position in this debate, and back up my opinion with rationale.
First, we must understand why we are standing onstage...it is not to promote the industry, or be the karaoke police, it is to put asses in the bar seats and serve the people connected to those asses as best as we can to build a following that spends, and returns weekly to keep spending to ensure our livelihood. That is our first and foremost mission.
Second, you are free to exercise any policy for any reason you want, and I will not be the one to tell you that you are wrong or right...BUT, when the disgruntled singer leaves a show that will not play his or her disc, or CDR, they will come to my show and I will do it happily. My reasoning is thus...first, customer service. No matter what format my show is in, I will always be able to accomodate a customers disc. My reasoning is further justified by the growing number of PC based jocks refusing to do it, and the growing number of singers I have who have their own discs. Plenty of jocks here are running illegal hard drives with 90k songs and singers still complain about them not having a song, or the wrong brand. It is about the singers and their needs...that is why we exist.
Many of these discs are CDR. While I share the opinion with you all that it sucks that other hosts are supplying the singers with bootlegs, it is not my responsibility to police the origins of where the customers disc came from...whether it is an archive disc, compilation, legally internet downloaded, pirated or whatever. It is not my responsibility, nor do I have any apparant liability if I am caught doing it.
They day I hear about a KJ prosecuted for the use of a customers disc is the day I will change my tune. As long as I am keeping my nose clean, not supplying, not trading on the net and using all legal source material that I provide to the show, I feel I am not part of the problem. I dont think banning CDR at my show is going to stop the problem, on that level...it will merely send the singers to another show, which defeats my primary objective for being there in the first place.
The 10 or 20 bucks that singer will drop is just as green to the bar as any other persons... If you feel that strongly about the principle, more power to you, but I think fighting the problem at the stage level is not productive and a tad quixotic.
First, we must understand why we are standing onstage...it is not to promote the industry, or be the karaoke police, it is to put asses in the bar seats and serve the people connected to those asses as best as we can to build a following that spends, and returns weekly to keep spending to ensure our livelihood. That is our first and foremost mission.
Second, you are free to exercise any policy for any reason you want, and I will not be the one to tell you that you are wrong or right...BUT, when the disgruntled singer leaves a show that will not play his or her disc, or CDR, they will come to my show and I will do it happily. My reasoning is thus...first, customer service. No matter what format my show is in, I will always be able to accomodate a customers disc. My reasoning is further justified by the growing number of PC based jocks refusing to do it, and the growing number of singers I have who have their own discs. Plenty of jocks here are running illegal hard drives with 90k songs and singers still complain about them not having a song, or the wrong brand. It is about the singers and their needs...that is why we exist.
Many of these discs are CDR. While I share the opinion with you all that it sucks that other hosts are supplying the singers with bootlegs, it is not my responsibility to police the origins of where the customers disc came from...whether it is an archive disc, compilation, legally internet downloaded, pirated or whatever. It is not my responsibility, nor do I have any apparant liability if I am caught doing it.
They day I hear about a KJ prosecuted for the use of a customers disc is the day I will change my tune. As long as I am keeping my nose clean, not supplying, not trading on the net and using all legal source material that I provide to the show, I feel I am not part of the problem. I dont think banning CDR at my show is going to stop the problem, on that level...it will merely send the singers to another show, which defeats my primary objective for being there in the first place.
The 10 or 20 bucks that singer will drop is just as green to the bar as any other persons... If you feel that strongly about the principle, more power to you, but I think fighting the problem at the stage level is not productive and a tad quixotic.
Harryoke: While I agree with you on some points as far as customer service is concerned... I still can't get past the possiblity of playing a junk CDR and being seen as just another KJ with a crappy sound system.
I'll say this you are right if a singer doesn't get to sing their song they will probably go cry in their beer... so sorry but, I'm not subjecting my reputation to a crappy disk... if they have the manu's disc fine I'll play it. At least if it is a manu's disc I have a little more confidence that it will be a good disc and not skip, jitter or even possible break in my drive.... I've had the last happen and had to send the entire player in for service and that was a manu's disc of mine... fortunately both were under warrenty at the time.
I just wont do it for all the reason's I've posted. Not because I'm taking an anti-piracy stand. I'm taking this stand for my reputation as a KJ/DJ and the qualtiy of my sound. Having a reputation for a great sound and a great presentation is uber important to me. That's why when I discovered Power CDG Burner I took the time to re-rip my collection for the 5th time... yes, I am a bit anal about quality, but that's just me.
I'll say this you are right if a singer doesn't get to sing their song they will probably go cry in their beer... so sorry but, I'm not subjecting my reputation to a crappy disk... if they have the manu's disc fine I'll play it. At least if it is a manu's disc I have a little more confidence that it will be a good disc and not skip, jitter or even possible break in my drive.... I've had the last happen and had to send the entire player in for service and that was a manu's disc of mine... fortunately both were under warrenty at the time.
I just wont do it for all the reason's I've posted. Not because I'm taking an anti-piracy stand. I'm taking this stand for my reputation as a KJ/DJ and the qualtiy of my sound. Having a reputation for a great sound and a great presentation is uber important to me. That's why when I discovered Power CDG Burner I took the time to re-rip my collection for the 5th time... yes, I am a bit anal about quality, but that's just me.
I am in complete agreement with Harry. If I happen to have the same disc, I will use mine, just for quality control. If I don't, I might suggest a "version upgrade" to the singer. In many cases they will give it a shot. However, in the end, the customer is always right. If they want to use their version, then that's the one I'll load.
The fact is, I have so many patrons who carry their own versions, that it would seriously hurt business to turn them away, though many of my regulars trust me enough to leave their discs at home.
The fact is, I have so many patrons who carry their own versions, that it would seriously hurt business to turn them away, though many of my regulars trust me enough to leave their discs at home.
I've told so many of my regulars about the ability to buy mp3+g songs & burn them over to CDG, most of them are starting to do that. They know that if they bring a burned CDG to my show, they bring a copy of the invoice/receipt with them, too.
Does "song quality" reflect on my show? Yes and no. Yes, I buy karaoke songs that I consider to be the best quality of the available version (whether others agree it is the best or not). But if I don't have the song version that a singer wants to sing (radio edit vs. album version, whatever), it might as well have been performed by a 2-year-old. On an out-of-tune pipe organ. Recorded on an old 8-track cassette. Oh, and the track changes in the middle of the song... you can hear dogs barking in the background... and Mom calls for supper.... (Sorry, my whacked sense of humor is getting in the way, but you get my meaning.)
If a singer has a version they're used to & they're willing to bring it in (original CDG or burned mp3+g with proof-of-purchase), I'll play it for them. Non-regulars, I'll do a burned CDG... ONCE. After that, no p-o-p, no play. They can find another song or use my version... with dogs barking in the background....
Does "song quality" reflect on my show? Yes and no. Yes, I buy karaoke songs that I consider to be the best quality of the available version (whether others agree it is the best or not). But if I don't have the song version that a singer wants to sing (radio edit vs. album version, whatever), it might as well have been performed by a 2-year-old. On an out-of-tune pipe organ. Recorded on an old 8-track cassette. Oh, and the track changes in the middle of the song... you can hear dogs barking in the background... and Mom calls for supper.... (Sorry, my whacked sense of humor is getting in the way, but you get my meaning.)
If a singer has a version they're used to & they're willing to bring it in (original CDG or burned mp3+g with proof-of-purchase), I'll play it for them. Non-regulars, I'll do a burned CDG... ONCE. After that, no p-o-p, no play. They can find another song or use my version... with dogs barking in the background....
A serious question...for those KJs who WILL play a CDR with proof of purchase: Allow me to play devils advocate, if for no other reason than my own recreation...
Repeating, read carefully...this question is ONLY directed to those who said they would play a CDR based on its legal acquisition. This is not a quality control issue.
Why? Why, if you are willing to play CDR if they have POP, do you do that? What are you hoping to accomplish with this policy? Is it an effort to stop the "problem"? Is it in support of the industry...or are you just plain old afraid of getting busted if you get caught because you feel it is illegal to play them as a KJ?
Just want to know what each of your impetus' are for this particular policy implementation.
Repeating, read carefully...this question is ONLY directed to those who said they would play a CDR based on its legal acquisition. This is not a quality control issue.
Why? Why, if you are willing to play CDR if they have POP, do you do that? What are you hoping to accomplish with this policy? Is it an effort to stop the "problem"? Is it in support of the industry...or are you just plain old afraid of getting busted if you get caught because you feel it is illegal to play them as a KJ?
Just want to know what each of your impetus' are for this particular policy implementation.
For me it's neither harry,
I talk to the karaoke producers every year at NAMM. Probably my best friend in the industry is Chris Cofoni of MMoGroup (music minus one, pocket songs).
Chris is about the same age as me (little younger) He's Sicilian (like me) and just an all around fun guy to hang out with. He has a baby girl, same age as mine, and when you get down to dollars and cents, everyone in his company is making under a 6 figure salary.
I probably could have given a rats ass before I made friends with some of the producers, but now that I have seen that these companies are made of hardworking people like you and me, I cannot with a clean concious allow people to steal from my friends.
Beyond that, we're in tech saavy silicon valley here. There was a time I allowed folks to bring in CDR and stuff on USB drives, but week after week i'd see the same people bringing in junk I knew they downloaded off the net.
Should I go into how I knew they were pirating for the sake of argument so we can avoid a rebuttal? Yah, why not.
We had this indian kid coming around for a while. Name escapes me now. He'd always bring his songs in on a USB flash drive.
Now pirates do pirating for one reason and one reason alone. They want to be famous. They want all these folks on the internet to suck up to them, tell them how wonderful they are for "sharing" and basically kiss thier balls.
Sometimes pirates like to put little txt files in thier archives to let the world know where the file came from. INFOZ.txt, stuff like that.
Autokdj had a bug (fixed) where if one of these txt files was present in the zip archive, it would crash winamp.
So whenever i'd cue up this guys songs, we'd crash. I'd restart (thank god for our crash recovery) I'd dig around the temp directory, see that junk in there and be like "WTF?"
There was other singers pulling crap like that too. People openly talking to me about "HEY TOQER I FOUND THIS COOL NEW PLACE TO DOWNLOAD KARAOKE SONGS FOR FREE! ALL YOU GOTTA DO IS SUCK A DING AND YOU CAN TAKE KARAOKE UP THE WAZOO ALL DAY ITS SO COOL OMGBBQ IM COMING!! KARAOKE ALL OVER MY HARD DRIVE!!!!!!"
AS someone who's actively trying to push karaoke technology, I think it's a bad situation that karaoke companies hate the idea of evolving karaoke because of people pulling that crap.
There's days I feel like pulling down the autokdj website. Keeping it exclusive to the 7b, and maybe jokerswild. Why the eff should I have to pay $10@mo for hosting, and another $35 for a domain trying to make technology for karaoke when people like the ones I described 2-3 paragraphs up are making me look bad?
Beyond that, the entire industry will not survive if we keep allowing pirating to continue. We'll see more karaoke companies go under, less song selection, and no new songs. We'll be left with maybe one or two karaoke producers who will have a monopoly because there will be no other producers left. Monopoly is only good as a board game.
I hate to say this, but we're going to get pwned... CDG will die because it's a non-drm format, and producers will start moving towards DRM based formats. When that happens, you won't have a choice in hardware or software.
With DRM they could even dictate what mics you have to use.
Sorry for being rantish...
I guess summarizing everything I said above, I see a direct corrolation between my taking a CDR, and the industry going in a direction that is bad for me and my friends.
I don't require a p-o-p so much to cover myself or my business from liability (though I'll admit it's a small part of it, too). I want to make sure that new stuff people want to sing keeps getting produced. If people don't vote for new karaoke songs with their money, why should they get any? It isn't like manufacturers & producers can ask for free song licenses just because no one else is willing to pay for the finished product.
I won't get tied up in economics or philosophy about ethics or legality here - I've done that in other threads. But in order for me to look in the mirror, I have to feel that I run my business ethically and legally. If I demand to get paid for my services, I think I should pay others who make my services possible (karaoke producers/manufacturers) and earn the money I demand (that's another thread.)
I won't get tied up in economics or philosophy about ethics or legality here - I've done that in other threads. But in order for me to look in the mirror, I have to feel that I run my business ethically and legally. If I demand to get paid for my services, I think I should pay others who make my services possible (karaoke producers/manufacturers) and earn the money I demand (that's another thread.
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Since you are legally allowed to make a burned backup of a disc, there is no legality question. There is absolutely no way to tell if a disc is a backup or burned by a friend. Playing a burned disc is not illegal, so if the customer wants to use a version I don't own ( and I don't delete dupes- all versions are in the book), I'll load it- AFTER I test it using a device that I carry for the purpose. If it's a mfr. original, no test, and no question....