Virginia Tech Shootings

Does anyone not feel that the fact this guy was able to walk into the local gun shop and purchase two handguns like he was buying a soda had absolutely no bearing on this crime?

I recognize that criminals will always have guns. In this case though we're not talking a street thug, who had the savvy to know where to find people that could supply him with a gun. If I wanted a gun right now, I have no idea where to even start.

In the U.S. though, I could walk across the street and buy til my heart's content. The ease of availability has to be an issue.

We can all say "what if". It can also be argued that if the availability was not there, this tragedy might not have occurred, or been less in terms of the casualties.....

It's bad enough that the authorities have to deal with the "thugs" that can access weapons; they also have to deal with each and every nut job that decides to take this path and can access these weapons so easily....

If two lives can be saved by restricting ease of access, is some sort of gun control worth it?

Jon, I recognize what you are saying and I understand as an American, like your brethren, what I am suggesting likely doesn't sit well, but can you or anyone show me statistics that gun control of some sort doesn't work?

I'm sorry, I just don't buy the notion that anyone and everyone should be able to purchase a gun so easily......

We require people to wear seatbelts, helmets. We regulate the purchase of alcohol, drugs....should not the sale of any lethal weapon be regulated at some point?

Lost in all the gun control frenzy is the fact that Virginia Tech has a no gun policy on its campus.

And yet, this guy ignored that law and did his damage.

What makes anyone think that passing more gun laws would do a damn thing but give gun control zealots a chance to pound their chests in perceived self-righteousness?

It was box cutters and fertilizer that brought down the World Trade Center and Murrah building, respectively. Should box cutters and fertilizer be outlawed because they were used to commit a crime of major proportion?

If a person is hell bent on committing this kind of mayhem, there's nothing to stop him. Well, except for one thing:

The school shootings usually stop each time once the OTHER side gets armed and fires back. I believe there's a recent situation where a student was opening fire on classmates, a teacher ran out to his car, got his gun, and because he was properly trained to use it, actually took out the shooter.

This Virginia Tech shooter ended up taking his own life once the police arrived with their weapons.

And let's not forget the chains he brought. He methodically sealed shut various rooms, trapping potential targets inside with no place to run and hide. Should we ban chains now?

It's a damn shame that there are dead students, grieving families and a campus in shock and the first thing the Liberal gun control advocates can do is run to a microphone to spew their garbage.

THAT is offensive.

Many states do not require a pistol permit, unless you want a concealed carry permit.

Unless things have changed recently, VA does not require a permit to buy/own a handgun, only to carry on your person. There is a waiting period though, and that usually weeds out most of the bad guys.

I used to have a concealed carry license in VA, but didn't renew, as my FL license allows me to carry in 30 states now. Of course, NY is not one of them. Getting a handgun permit just to buy one in NY, is about as easy as getting to the moon. Mainly only bad guys, or friends of judges have handguns here

Most of the statistics usually show, that in states with concealed carry available to any law abiding person, that violent crime goes down, because the bad guys don't know who's packing...

It is a very sad situation, and one this country is going to have to deal with............ are we going to be more concerned about the rights of the criminals/accused or....more concerned about the rights of the innocent.

Underlying all of these tragedies is law enforcements response to these types of situations. Law enforcement at all levels is required to keep the rights of the perpetrator in the forefront at the expense of the innocent. All forms of response to situations like this, law enforcement has to be concerned about how their actions today.... will play out some day down the road in a court of law.......look what is happening now! Talk of lack of response. Instead the first order of duty should have been take him out! And not worry about how you accomplished this............

Next we will hear, as someone has already said, campus securities all over the country will beef up, and we will be hearing about how somebodys rights were violated because of these actions, and back we go to a position of minimum response, just so you don't find yourself in court, down the road for violating someones rights!.........

We are just fortunate to date we haven't been hit again as a country by terrorists, it would be very easy to accomplish this.....and this has nothing to do with "gun control laws"...as someone said... if a faculty or student had a weapon, this may have not occurred. The bad guys will always find a way to do what they want to do, no matter how strict your gun laws are...it just means the perps will have to spend a bit more ($) to get one...........

DJ Gray said:

It is a very sad situation, and one this country is going to have to deal with............ are we going to be more concerned about the rights of the criminals/accused or....more concerned about the rights of the innocent.

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Blame the ACLU,trial lawyers like John Edwards, and race hustlers like Jesse Jackson for this bizarre twist of priorities.

DJ Gray said:

Underlying all of these tragedies is law enforcements response to these types of situations. Law enforcement at all levels is required to keep the rights of the perpetrator in the forefront at the expense of the innocent.

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I know, we wouldn't want the shooters rights to be violated.

DJ Gray said:

We are just fortunate to date we haven't been hit again as a country by terrorists

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Because our military is engaging them over there so our first responders don't have to deal with their carnage over here.

One more comment...this loner at VT...if he had been taken into protective custody out of fear he might be a danger to others, the fact that he was a Korean would have resulted in the Liberals wailing about ethnic profiling, the evils of locking up "the innocent" and how an "enlightened" society would have never let this happen.

I heard that the nation's strictest gun control laws are in Washington, DC. I also heard that the nation's highest murder rate is in Washington, DC.

If true...coincidence?

I heard a report that one of his english professors had reported him after a paper/play he had done, and as radical a paper as it was, the dept. head found nothing they could hold him on, or to remove him from the university on........again let's not violate his rights to verbalize his threats to "kill hoards of people"...........all the signs were there, but who wants to risk a suit for "violating his civil rights"....here again "his" rights were at stake!!...............to hell with the rest of the student body

With this current congress and our next president, don't be surprised if it's a lot tougher for you to get weapons to protect yourself, and to find yourself at the mercy of idiots like this psycho at VT...........

some of you won't like this

I'm sorry to be the one to bring this up, but did anyone even try to stop this guy as he walked thru a huge building packed with college students shooting at them? Understandably things would be handled different in elementary, middle, & high schools, but colleges are full of adults.. As an adult you are expected to defend yourself, or at least try.

Yes, there is an element of danger and risk involved, but while running away is perfectly OK, cowering and waiting for someone to come save you (and then be critical of them because they 'weren't quick enough') is not the way things are done.

Cowering and not reacting caused 3 of the 4 planes to be successful on 9/11. Reacting prevented the 4th plane from completing it's mission.
Would this happen if someone broke into your house?
Is this an indicator of what might happen in the military?

Has anyone determined if this guy has any links to any terrorist organizations? Unfortunately it is going to take a tragedy like this to get Washington to stop all their bickering and posturing.

Think about "how much" its going to cost us "taxpayers" to "beef up" colleges!


I am not worried about the money, but these shootings werent meant to happen! Some people cannot deal with pressure!

Heck....if there was NO school shootings......I'd bet there'd be school bombings!

These people target "innocent" people! These people are mad!

I bet the students treated this "kid" like crap! Was he weird...."probably!"

Its hard for anyone to get the to the "actual" point of "snapping!"

He probably didnt want this to happen....but after he shot those two people....that was it! (Thinking like a killer)

What did he have to gain by quitting shooting people....NOTHING!! He forever knew his fate! He didnt freakin care anymore! Not about himself, nor the people he was going to make victims!

I am not sympathizing with the shooter, because that was ridiculous, but I understand where is mentality went! I bet he even thought twice before he squeezed off the first round! After the first body hit the ground, it was over! There was no stopping a "mad man!"

Its real unfortunate that those students had no chance! (Eyes welling up)

I cant believe he was committing a massacre, and he didnt even let up!

We will never understand why he kept shooting! Even after killing two people, he had two hours to "quit!" What kept his mind to want to do more......."Oh yea, My life is over!" "I am going to jail if they catch me, what do I want to go there for?"

He then had a bone to pick with some teachers.......and then it turned to students, and pretty soon it didnt matter! "Whos gonna step in front of me??"


I gotta quit....I can almost feel how he felt! I can imagine the way it just snowballed for him!

This is a tragedy.....and I personally think that "THIS ONE COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED!!" There are signs!

With the news coming out now, this one certainly could have been avoided. The reports now are a couple years ago, instead of making it mandatory for this guy to go to counciling because of charge against him, the judge made it voluntary. Had it been mandatory, it would have shown up on his record and he would not have been allowed to purchase the guns.

Now, about gun control. I am totally against the second ammendment in any way shape or form (I know, horrible). The arguement that had "regular" citizens be able to pack guns, this would have been prevented is a joke. What would have happened if someone had accidently shot someone else, then we have a big old gun battle break out in the dorms?

Simply because the possibility exists that criminals will be able to get a hold of illegal guns does not make it right for anyone to own one. And anyone who thinks that gun control will actually benefit criminals is out of their mind. People will always find a way to harm others, no matter what. I do not believe we should make it easy us to do it to each other.

the issue I see here is the availability of semi automatic weapons to a guy, while nuts....had easy access to the weapons he needed to do the job....Would some one have died that day....likely. I agree that criminals will always have handguns.....the fact is , is that the average thug doesn't use his gun to massacre 30+ innocent people at a college. The thug wants to live; the gun is a "tool" of his trade.

I'm talking the Coulumbine's, Virginia Tech's and other similar incidents. The people that committed these crimes are not hardened criminals; they likely didn't buy their semi autos from Vinnie in the back alley. They walking into the local store and bought weapons that could fire multiple rounds in seconds. These poor people didn't stand a chance....

Tell me what justifies the need for the average joe to go in and purchase a semi or fully automatic weapon....

There will always be crime; sadly, people will die. None can tell me that by banning the sale of handguns, semi automatic weapons and the like, you aren't going to save lives....putting a gun in everybody's hand won't solve the problem either.....

But Steve you haven't addressed three simple facts...

One: Virginia Tech was a "gun free" campus, so with that law already on the books, how did he get those weapons on campus to begin with and would more laws have caused him to think twice before bringing those weapons on campus?

Two: He wasn't in fear of the law, he was prepared to die and take as many people with him as possible. Wouuld increasing the punishment for violating existing gun laws have caused him to think twice before acting?

Three: Timothy McVeigh took out over 150 people with fertilizer. Islamic terrorists took out 3000 with box cutters.

John - there is a vast difference between a campus saying they are gun free and federal legislation prohibiting the sale and/or possession of handguns, semi automatic and automatic weapons...they're probably smoke-free as well....the fact is, a block off campus the nut job can by the weapon of choice...there isn't a magic barrier that makes the gun disappear upon crossing campus lines

Cho might have been prepared to die....it's a lot more difficult to take the numbers he did with a knife or a box cutter...

The issue isn't the ease of availability of these weapons...Yes Cho could have walked in with a rifle: 1) harder to hide 2) doesn't spit out 15-30-60 rounds with no reload required.....Had he walked in that classroom with a knife or boxcutter; would 30m people have died.

Point 3...totally irrelevant....There were the acts of terrorists; plans long drawn...people with access to the crime underworld to get their weapons....not some screwed up nutjob...Cho didn't buy these guns in the alley but at a retail outlet; no questions asked.....

Islamic terrorists and box cutters didn't kill 3000 souls; the planes dropping from the sky did. There was no reaction from the passengers in the first 3 planes as they though they were dealing with a simple hijacking...had they know the true intent; like those in the 4th plane; action likely would have been taken and had this been on a train or bus, or had there been someone who could have flown the planes, the outcome would have been significantly different.

Tell me what justifies the need for the average joe to go in and purchase a semi or fully automatic weapon....

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To shoot back, if shot at, and have a reasonable chance of surviving.

Obviously, I agree to disagree with you Steve.
There is a reason that we live in two different countries, I suspect.


There's also an often overlooked factor, that many don't take for granted here:

If the populace is well armed, the gov't can always be overthrown, as was done a couple hundred years ago here. Out of armed conflict with our then government, is how we came to be a free people (at least more than most).

Giving up that right to have reasonably similar arms to our military, would not put US in a position to do that again, if necessary. I believe (IMHO), that that was why our founding fathers were insistent on that right.

It seems a simple (although sometimes not so easy) thing, to remember, that the needs of the many, far outweigh the needs of the few, or one. We have to put up (unfortunately) with the sacrifices of the few, in order to make sure the many still control our government, and the ability to put the big picture back on track...


If you look at my sig, the last icon is the Sons of the American Revolution, of which I am a member. It means my ancestors fought in the revolutionary war (and luckily survived). They fought to give US our rights.

As long as I'm alive, I'll fight to keep them...

thatmusicguy said:

John - there is a vast difference between a campus saying they are gun free and federal legislation prohibiting the sale and/or possession of handguns, semi automatic and automatic weapons...they're probably smoke-free as well....the fact is, a block off campus the nut job can by the weapon of choice...there isn't a magic barrier that makes the gun disappear upon crossing campus lines

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Well, if the existing gun-free laws didn't prevent him from his act, what would any NEW laws do? Same thing as the existing laws, which aren't enforced as they should. Let's start THERE.

Allow me to quote from republicanpress.com, albeit a website with an agenda, but since Conservatives are placed under a media microscop much more than Liberals, and this info has yet to be removed as being false...

"The first thing Stalin did was take the guns away from the Soviet people. The first thing Hitler did was take the guns away from the German people. The first thing Saddam did was take the guns away from the Iraqi people. The first thing Caesar did was take the guns away from the Roman people. The first thing Pol Pot did was take away the guns from the Cambodian people. The first thing that Ho Chi Mien did was take away the guns from the Vietnamese people. The first thing Mao did was take the guns away from Chinese people."

Allow me to also quote from the Second Amendment...

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Can it be argued that the leaders of the countries mentioned above presided over a free people living in a free state by their own free will?

thatmusicguy said:

Point 3...totally irrelevant....There were the acts of terrorists; plans long drawn...people with access to the crime underworld to get their weapons....not some screwed up nutjob...Cho didn't buy these guns in the alley but at a retail outlet; no questions asked.....

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Cho didn't terrorize those students? He didn't take the time to record that video, write his manifesto and, in between attacks, mail it himself? He wasn't so determined to commit mayhem on a large scale that if he couldn't legally purchase his weapons he wouldn't have bought them from the "crime underworld" who don't obey the already existing laws?

thatmusicguy said:

Islamic terrorists and box cutters didn't kill 3000 souls; the planes dropping from the sky did.

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Likewise, the guns and bullets didn't kill 32 people. There's plenty of guns and bullets sitting in sporting goods stores right now that aren't killing anyone.

thatmusicguy said:

There was no reaction from the passengers in the first 3 planes as they though they were dealing with a simple hijacking...had they know the true intent; like those in the 4th plane; action likely would have been taken and had this been on a train or bus, or had there been someone who could have flown the planes, the outcome would have been significantly different.

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In other words, the people on United 93, once they knew what was going on, fought back with what they had on the plane and flight attendant area. Is it a stretch to imagine what would have happened if someone sitting in one of those classrooms was carrying a legal firearm, having passed a state or federal firearms class, gone through the proper waiting period and received paperwork authenticating his/her knowledge of the laws, and and used it in self defense? Might "the outcome have been significantly different?"

We'll never know, but it still is the most insulting thing to hear how people who weren't there would have acted, how those that did act did so improperly or ineffectively, and couldn't wait to turn this into yet another gun control debate.

Let's mourn the dead before we start pointing fingers.

Interesting piece by the Nuge, and it didn't have a copyright notice, so here it is in full from CNN:

By Ted Nugent
Special to CNN

Editor's note: Rock guitarist Ted Nugent has sold more than 30 million albums. He's also a gun rights activist and serves on the board of directors of the National Rifle Association. His program, "Ted Nugent Spirit of the Wild," can be seen on the Outdoor Channel.



WACO, Texas (CNN) -- Zero tolerance, huh? Gun-free zones, huh? Try this on for size: Columbine gun-free zone, New York City pizza shop gun-free zone, Luby's Cafeteria gun-free zone, Amish school in Pennsylvania gun-free zone and now Virginia Tech gun-free zone.

Anybody see what the evil Brady Campaign and other anti-gun cults have created? I personally have zero tolerance for evil and denial. And America had best wake up real fast that the brain-dead celebration of unarmed helplessness will get you killed every time, and I've about had enough of it.

Nearly a decade ago, a Springfield, Oregon, high schooler, a hunter familiar with firearms, was able to bring an unfolding rampage to an abrupt end when he identified a gunman attempting to reload his .22-caliber rifle, made the tactical decision to make a move and tackled the shooter.

A few years back, an assistant principal at Pearl High School in Mississippi, which was a gun-free zone, retrieved his legally owned Colt .45 from his car and stopped a Columbine wannabe from continuing his massacre at another school after he had killed two and wounded more at Pearl.

At an eighth-grade school dance in Pennsylvania, a boy fatally shot a teacher and wounded two students before the owner of the dance hall brought the killing to a halt with his own gun.

More recently, just a few miles up the road from Virginia Tech, two law school students ran to fetch their legally owned firearm to stop a madman from slaughtering anybody and everybody he pleased. These brave, average, armed citizens neutralized him pronto.

My hero, Dr. Suzanne Gratia Hupp, was not allowed by Texas law to carry her handgun into Luby's Cafeteria that fateful day in 1991, when due to bureaucrat-forced unarmed helplessness she could do nothing to stop satanic George Hennard from killing 23 people and wounding more than 20 others before he shot himself. Hupp was unarmed for no other reason than denial-ridden "feel good" politics.

She has since led the charge for concealed weapon upgrade in Texas, where we can now stop evil. Yet, there are still the mindless puppets of the Brady Campaign and other anti-gun organizations insisting on continuing the gun-free zone insanity by which innocents are forced into unarmed helplessness. Shame on them. Shame on America. Shame on the anti-gunners all.

No one was foolish enough to debate Ryder truck regulations or ammonia nitrate restrictions or a "cult of agriculture fertilizer" following the unabashed evil of Timothy McVeigh's heinous crime against America on that fateful day in Oklahoma City. No one faulted kitchen utensils or other hardware of choice after Jeffrey Dahmer was caught drugging, mutilating, raping, murdering and cannibalizing his victims. Nobody wanted "steak knife control" as they autopsied the dead nurses in Chicago, Illinois, as Richard Speck went on trial for mass murder.

Evil is as evil does, and laws disarming guaranteed victims make evil people very, very happy. Shame on us.

Already spineless gun control advocates are squawking like chickens with their tiny-brained heads chopped off, making political hay over this most recent, devastating Virginia Tech massacre, when in fact it is their own forced gun-free zone policy that enabled the unchallenged methodical murder of 32 people.

Thirty-two people dead on a U.S. college campus pursuing their American Dream, mowed-down over an extended period of time by a lone, non-American gunman in illegal possession of a firearm on campus in defiance of a zero-tolerance gun law. Feel better yet? Didn't think so.

Who doesn't get this? Who has the audacity to demand unarmed helplessness? Who likes dead good guys?

I'll tell you who. People who tramp on the Second Amendment, that's who. People who refuse to accept the self-evident truth that free people have the God-given right to keep and bear arms, to defend themselves and their loved ones. People who are so desperate in their drive to control others, so mindless in their denial that they pretend access to gas causes arson, Ryder trucks and fertilizer cause terrorism, water causes drowning, forks and spoons cause obesity, dialing 911 will somehow save your life, and that their greedy clamoring to "feel good" is more important than admitting that armed citizens are much better equipped to stop evil than unarmed, helpless ones.

Pray for the families of victims everywhere, America. Study the methodology of evil. It has a profile, a system, a preferred environment where victims cannot fight back. Embrace the facts, demand upgrade and be certain that your children's school has a better plan than Virginia Tech or Columbine. Eliminate the insanity of gun-free zones, which will never, ever be gun-free zones. They will only be good guy gun-free zones, and that is a recipe for disaster written in blood on the altar of denial. I, for one, refuse to genuflect there.

Thirty-two people dead on a U.S. college campus pursuing their American Dream, mowed-down over an extended period of time by a lone, non-American gunman in illegal possession of a firearm on campus in defiance of a zero-tolerance gun law. Feel better yet? Didn't think so.

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That pretty much says it all.

Way to go Ted!

I guess that's why I live here in Canada. I don't mean to be disrespectful.....and I'm not trying to be....

"I'll tell you who. People who tramp on the Second Amendment, that's who. People who refuse to accept the self-evident truth that free people have the God-given right to keep and bear arms, to defend themselves and their loved ones"

I'm sure your forefathers didn't mean selling semi and fully automatic guns in a 7-11. When this was written, your choice was a musket or bayonet.....Civilization/society was completely different.


Nothing can justify the sale of these sort of weapons in a corner store to any Tom, Dick or Harry that walks in. At some point, the greater good of the public has to be considered. One sees the same arguments when laws requiring the use of seat-belts, helmets on motorcycles, etc. are passed.

In a civilized society one must be prepared to give up some of what they may perceive to be their inalienable rights. We have all kinds of laws that do this: seat belt, helmet, traffic laws....what's the difference in restricting the availability of semi and fully automatic weapons. What's wrong with a 2 week waiting period, back ground check, restrictions on use and or storage.....?

No..... let's make it about race (as Mr. Nugent has done with the non-American line). He doesn't address the core issues, instead choosing to point fingers at the University.

I agree; guns don't kill people; people do. But when you make guns available so easily, it only make sense that the ease of availability will lead to deaths.....

So i guess we'll agree to disagree.........

So i guess we'll agree to disagree.........

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As agreed, more than happy to do so Steve.


BTW: If you folks ever get invaded, we'll be there for ya -- when yer muskets are empty, and bayonets dull.

Freedom isn't always free, and isn't always easy...

Wow. I've never seen guns for sale at a 7-11.

I've said this before. I gave my dad a sweatshirt for Christmas that reads, "Land of the free BECAUSE of the brave!"

He retired as a Colonel from the Air Force in 1974. He went to Japan, Thailand, and Viet Nam in the Sixties.