Small installs = great extra income!

Fred Wright said:

Brother Kris,

Nobody's knockin' yas here. Just trying to help.

If it's any help I've been involved in industrial electrical installs for, aw, going on 30 years now. Three-phase, 480 volt stuff. Most of that was new work but I've pulled some old work that would cause yas to wonder why the plant hadn't burned to the ground.

I've seen too much, my friend. A HPS light fixture crashed to the floor one day. It's fortunate no one was under it. It had been suspended with steel chain, like people often tie dogs with. Over time, the chain had rusted and worn thin from the fixture moving back and forth in the airflow from an intake fan.

I've seen fused disconnects catch fire because they were overfused. Seen a hand grinder catch fire and explode in a man's hands because the branch circuit had no overload protection. A $60.00 grinder protected a 100 amp fuse by blowing first.

All I'm sayin'.... Do what is right. Not what you think might be right. Never base decisions on what a budget allows. If the budget doesn't allow for the safe way, don't touch the job. You tell the customer what the job will cost, not the other way around.

Over the years of mobile DJing, I've cussed many a crap electrical install in cheap venues. Stuff was done on the cheap and it was evident.

Back to sound installs. If yas don't do anything else, place a DBX compressor/limiter in the chain and lock that sucker away where no one can monkey with it.

Just some thoughts from an old factory electrician.

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Awesome post. My dad was a Master Electrician and Project Manager for 20 years and you would not believe some of the stuff he saw. I have been doing installs and renovations for 10 and you would not believe what I have seen! *lol* I recently did a renovation where a line array was held in place by 1/8" aircraft cable. I told the owner and he said "well, the installer said it was okay." I told him to get it fixed ASAP.

I have seen properly rigged gear fail. A cheeseborough under no strain once broke straight in half and dropped 6" from someone's head. It had been installed by a CERTIFIED rigger (I am not even certified).

Just did a job at a club where a 16 250W lamps were plugged into 1 20A circuit. I wondered how that was possible. The circuit breaker had been taped in the "on" position. I immediately told the owner. He didn't want to fix it. I walked out.

I did another one where the building LEDs were not UL listed for outdoor applications. Owner was wondering why he kept losing fixtures when it rained.

We mixed in a venue this summer where you could tell that no one did an acoustical study of the room before the install. It was way too live, with sound rebounding everywhere, with strange hot frequencies and a HUGE hole in the PA coverage. It took us about 1000 sq ft of theater quality fabric and a couple of rented line arrays just to get the room under control.

I saw an entire club rig (well in access of 4000 lbs) being held up by 4 1/4 ton chain motors on DJ truss.

And I only work in entertainment. My dad has tons of horror stories from what he calls "big power".

Mike

Esoteric, Kris is gonna do a great job. In fact, he's probably going to knock some socks off of customers. He does have extensive home construction trade under his belt. I've seen the work he does and I'm sure he's gonna give the install something special and do it for the price that his customer is going to feel good charging. He always tweaking, customizing and re-engineering things to be better and more efficient all the time.

2 years ago Kris called me and it seemed to me he was another teacher like me with mouths to feed at home wondering what kind of speakers to buy. speakers
....Now he's all grown up and taking on new directions I never would dream about. This is just two years.
In fact, I'm willing to bet the owner will then hire him again, pay him a bit more to try and broaden the next job out a bit more.

He even called me on this club gig and I was uncomfortable helping with it based on the timeline and extent of work. This thread is the first I've even heard about it since I passed it up a month ago. You gotta understand Kris is going to what he wants when he wants and its always going to be good and safe. He's got a degree in science. I'm sure he can determine the load bearing weight of a rafter.

I think what he is doing is very basic and well within most people's grasp. Don't over analyze this. These are LED panels. Chinese, generic no name panels. They are junk by most install standards, but the owners I'm assuming are cheap as usual. If one dies, they'll grab another. No big deal. More than 350 LED's per panel for around $116. Why buy Elation? It's not a video wall, its coverage lighting.

I'm sure if Kris needed to learn acoustic software to do this gig then the owners would have already shelled a truckload of money out to hire pros. Kris is upfront with people. He's not gonna grab a shovel full of BS just to make a buck. He's gonna charge the right money for the right job for him.

He eventually wants to be at your level believe me. I'm in awe of the stuff you do. But he's gotta get there his way. He'd like to fill his new truck with money too!

Jon Tuck said:

I have to agree with Mikes questions. His approach like mine isnt always the greatest but his point of the skillz needed and learned are somewhat like insurance and our good friends at NLFX will agree that someone with little or marginal training should be nosing into such a venture which hundreds of people have access to per year. The Pyrotechnics fire a few yrs back killed people and even folks who claimed legal training are paying dearly til today even over that situation.

I have done a few speaker hangings but never messed with lighting or any of that even though I have construction background. Im perfectly fine with doing it at my place of residence but never would challenge myself with the slight chance of endangering others.
I would consider taking some night courses and learn the things Mike asked initially.

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I totally think Kris is learning about what questions to ask. I don't think he's blowing Mike off at all, but I don't think he'll give up on the job.

I've walked into a club with Kris about a year ago where it was I who was getting a chance to do the work. I don't do electrical or anything like it, but I know how to calculate roughly what a circuit load can bear. I was working with the architect to label power drops on plans for lighting, TV's etc. I'm sure Kris is doing the same.

It is a risk, but its a risk millions of people take all the time to further their understanding of whatever it is they believe it.

I have to correct Kris; Technically you don't have to have a degree to be a teacher, but rather you have to have a degree to be employed as one. In the end we are all teachers. If you can tear down a car and rebuild it, you are a mechanic. If you can hang a light, calculate circuits, run the proper cabling, and do it safely you can install A/V . If your work sucks, then they will call someone else. Simple.

How did we all become DJ's? I haven't been to one conference, seminar, training, never read a book on it, etc. I still call myself a professional DJ.

I'm sure Doing installs takes research, time, consultation etc. but I tend to believe one can grow into it gradually at first then take some training when the time is right to go BIG with it. This ain't big. In fact, I would have thought Mike would consider it rather small...

I have to agree with Mike on this....or at least my cynical "insurance adjuster" side. This isn't playing music at a wedding; its doing a permanent install...a speaker could fall 3 years from now....Kris are you going to be insured then? are you truly insured now?

it might seem like easy money......now....but you have to look at the BIG picture.

There a company on the other board (rhymes with Zoom) that posts pictures of their prom set ups. there are hanging trussing, lighting, speakers off gym ceilings...indiscriminately; no engineers involved, no riggers.

Ask Val why she doesn't do that. She likely has the know how...there's much more than just hanging stuff involved.

Odds are nothing will happen; something just might....those few bucks that you will make won't seem like a lot then....

Great points made here, Kris may I suggest talking with Bill Cronheim at ESC he has been involved in a huge lawsuit where he if I'm not mistaken was the supplier to a company who bought some stuff and then the did an install for a concert. It was a nightmare.

There's one thing I don't like about the US and that's the damn lawsuits. People can get very greedy and will go to great troubles to get every single penny they can even if you're the 20th person up the line and you only suggested some product or something else.

Another thing you can take a look at in the internet is the case of the SV Cynthia Woods a 38 ft. sailboat that was donated to Texas A&M Galveston by one of it's benefactors. The boat was brand new and manufactured by Cape Fear Yacht Works which is owned by the benefactors son.

The boat lost it's keel in the Gulf of Mexico and capsized five of the crew of six made it off the boat but the safety officer drowned. Well after the investigation it was discovered that the boat had been run aground twice in Galveston Bay, the second grounding was very hard and the keel separated from the hull. The boat was taken to a boatyard for repairs, that were carried out by the yard and Texas A&M students.

Guess what the US Coast Guard determined? Improper repairs and the damage to the boat was not surveyed by the manufacturer or a properly licensed surveyor and there are other situations caused by the sailing program at Texas A&M that caused more damage to the keel while the boat was docked. Which leads us to what's going on today, Texas A&M's owns investigation says that the manufacturer is at fault and that the repair work done by the students was not a factor. The boat was built with composite materials that required different repairs than fiberglass.

So now we have a lawsuit involving the widow and the people are playing hot potato trying to assign blame. If the repairs had been done by a qualified yard as well as a survey done the boat would have not been allowed to sail. The manufacturer was never informed of the damage or the repairs required. Is the manufacturer to blame?

Not trying to gang up on you Kris, you just need to be very careful with this for you and your family.

The act and lawsuit from the concert were the accident happened was Curtis Mayfield.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0562631/bio

Date of Birth
3 June 1942, Chicago, Illinois, USA

Date of Death
26 December 1999, Roswell, Georgia, USA (complications of diabetes)

Nickname
The Gentle Genius

Mini Biography

Rhythm and blues performer/songwriter credited with defining 1960's Chicago sound in hits like "It's All Right" and "Gypsy Woman." His style influenced other artists from pop to hip hop. Has been a quadriplegic ever since he was struck by lighting rig during outdoor concert in New York, 1990.

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Jon Tuck said:

You see JT I am torn on this one cause I see both sides. I ventured into mobile work from my Club and wide range of music experience I gained while doing 20 different clubs in Okinawa. I then hired on with a multi op. I worked with him for 1 yr and he died which then put me in a pickle and decided I had trained enough to go out on my own. The point being I didnt jump in as a pretty seasoned DJ but learned from a mentor. Perhaps Kris ought to call in an expert to help during the early part of his adventure. Call it insurance.

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Jon I agree with you man! I see both sides too. Perhaps Kris ought to call Mike!

as far as DJ experience my dad was my mentor. Maybe did 2 shows with him. I had to forge my way up but most of the early gigs were free or very low pay. I didn't feel comfortable charging regular prices and I let the client know about my experience before taking it all to the next level. I think much the same is happening with Kris on this small time install.

While Mike is correct to a point Doing small installs is not that big of a deal, I have done many from clubs to churches to bowling alleys.

The last one I redid was a bowling alley it was installed by a "professional installer" (all they do is install lighting and sound systems).

Let me describe what I found!

Speaker cable used was 18 gauge.

It was ran through the drop ceiling with no ryme or reason.

Speakers were mounted through the drop ceiling tiles with a piece of threaded rod running through the eyes of the mounting brackets and a piece of 5/8 plywood laid underneath the rod to keep it from tearing through the acuostic tiles, no cables, nothing to keep them from dropping if the tile gave out!

The speakers were mounted against each wall 8 speakers 20 feet behind where the mass of the people would be and 8 speakers at the far end of the bowling lanes 65 feet away from the area where people are. Completely uninteligable!

All 16 of these speakers were run from two 4ohm capable amps 4 on each side of each amp a 2ohm load and on 18 gauge cabling some of which was over 100' in length.

So much for "Profesional sound installers"!

Now for the lights (do you really want to know) they were mounted in much the same way as the speakers and again not a single saftey cable connecting any of them to the girders above! The difference here was the mass of DROP CORD running to each one of the lights 16 Martin (218 Scanners) from two outlets!

I haven't gone back down to fix the lighting yet but i have repaired and corrected the sound system. I removed all the speakers from the far end of the bowling lanes and added two of them to the close side, I cabled all of the speakers to the girders. I added an amp to run the pair of speakers in the game room and wired the rest correctly to the amps they had.

The sound improved 1000%, the system is a hell of a lot safer, the amps aren't overloaded.

14 years ago this center paid just under $60,000 to have this crap installed. They used absolutely the cheapest Community speakers they could find and cut every corner they could possibly cut when installing this "system"!

I charged them $1200 for the day "fixing" what was there and have another day to go back and saftey cable all the lights after they have an electrician wire power to each one of them!

Again this was a "Professional Installer" who put this "system" in this center.

I have a bid in to replace everything next year at this center.

The real issue here is your exposure and whether you are prepared if something were to go wrong.

The Pro installer should have liability insurance.....then his family, personal assets are not exposed.

In today's litigious society, I wouldn't take the chance for a few bucks....

Some though have no issue with risk....

That is the dangerous part of the post. Again, 99.999999% of DJs should NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES even consider doing lighting and sound installations.

As far as DJs using "cutting edge" lighting and sound equipment, that really made me laugh. How many DJs here use a PM5D on a regular basis? How about a Digidesign console? Okay, how about a Soundcraft Live console? These are industry standards, not even "cutting edge". Anyone here use a Hog or Avo lighting console? Martin MAC500 or MAC600 moving lights? Again, these are standards, not even cutting edge.

I know some of the guys here use some nice gear. But to make the over arcing statement that DJs using cutting edge light and sound gear is ridiculous.

As far as bad professional installers? Yeah, they are out there. Just as I am sure that there are bad professional DJs out there. I have cleaned up after many a professional installer. But as with DJs (or many other instances) you are more likely to get a good install from a professional rather than an experienced amateur. For every bad professional install I have cleaned up a dozen amateur installers.

But good luck!

Mike

Also, someone misread. The Elation and Chauvet units are junk. Anyone who thinks they are high end gear should not be anywhere near a lighting install.

Mike

Steve LeBlanc said:

The real issue here is your exposure and whether you are prepared if something were to go wrong.

The Pro installer should have liability insurance.....then his family, personal assets are not exposed.

In today's litigious society, I wouldn't take the chance for a few bucks....

Some though have no issue with risk....

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I have read this thread with great thoughtfulness, there are many valid points contained throughout. Thunder, I couldn't agree more... as is the case in many industries the work of "pros" often makes other "pros" look bad... however, that does not mean "amateurs" are better.

Minnesota (and many other states) requires us to be licensed electrical contractors to install AV systems. While the rigid licensure requirements (education, insurance, continuing education, bonding, etc.) certainly help ensure that "pros" are doing a "pro" job it does not guaranatee it. No more than having a drivers license guarantees that you are a good driver. It does, however, guarantee that you have met the minimal requirements.

My team and I have undergone substantial additional training. Our installers are reminded daily (usually by themselves to each other) that a single bad day, a single mistake or oversight can cause injury or death to someone.

Worst of all, and the reason I quoted you, Steve, is that you can do EVERYTHING right and things can still go wrong. Basically it boils down to this. If you are contracting (installing, etc) it is not a question of "IF" you will be sued, but "WHEN".

Kris, I applaud your love of this industry. Please love your family and your business as much. Please make sure your insurance company KNOWS you are contracting and that you have all required permits and licenses. It's simply CYA. I am glad to work with a network of other installers throughout the country where I assist with wholesale product, programming expertise for DSPs (SoundWeb, BASIS, IRIS/RAVE, ZonePro, ProAnnounce, etc), and install labor support, and I would love for you to grow to a point where we could work together too. Should you want any information regarding codes and the legalities involved in AV installs, just drop me an e-mail. I'm sincerely glad to help.

Ben

Ben.

That is the most help or encouraging thought Kris has seen from anyone in this thread, particularly from an installer. I'm sure he appreciates it. Good words. Thanks.

NLFX Pro said:

I have read this thread with great thoughtfulness, there are many valid points contained throughout. Thunder, I couldn't agree more... as is the case in many industries the work of "pros" often makes other "pros" look bad... however, that does not mean "amateurs" are better.

Minnesota (and many other states) requires us to be licensed electrical contractors to install AV systems. While the rigid licensure requirements (education, insurance, continuing education, bonding, etc.) certainly help ensure that "pros" are doing a "pro" job it does not guaranatee it. No more than having a drivers license guarantees that you are a good driver. It does, however, guarantee that you have met the minimal requirements.

My team and I have undergone substantial additional training. Our installers are reminded daily (usually by themselves to each other) that a single bad day, a single mistake or oversight can cause injury or death to someone.

Worst of all, and the reason I quoted you, Steve, is that you can do EVERYTHING right and things can still go wrong. Basically it boils down to this. If you are contracting (installing, etc) it is not a question of "IF" you will be sued, but "WHEN".

Kris, I applaud your love of this industry. Please love your family and your business as much. Please make sure your insurance company KNOWS you are contracting and that you have all required permits and licenses. It's simply CYA. I am glad to work with a network of other installers throughout the country where I assist with wholesale product, programming expertise for DSPs (SoundWeb, BASIS, IRIS/RAVE, ZonePro, ProAnnounce, etc), and install labor support, and I would love for you to grow to a point where we could work together too. Should you want any information regarding codes and the legalities involved in AV installs, just drop me an e-mail. I'm sincerely glad to help.

Ben

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You should always know your local codes. For example, for A/V equipment Texas has no licensing requirement. If I have to pull a permit I can get a special compensation for A/V equipment. But the minute I start running wire, conduit, putting in boxes, etc I subcontract to an electrical contractor, because at this point I don't want to be a licensed electrical installer. But know your local building codes!

Mike