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Ron Auger said:
And that's what makes you of of the .... Your just lower in price. I understand that, I do. Which overall helps me.

This sounds like you're shopping for a new car. Same game. I was looking into a new truck yesterday. The car salesman worked in a similar manor. I nicely told him "I don't play that game".

Hey, that's just me. What do I know?
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Hey, I admit, I am not doing lighting designs for The Stones or Wicked. Not that I think I couldn't, but I recognize my place. At this point I don't have the contacts, I don't have my MFA, I am a regional lighting designer. I have been named one of the best young designers in the region, but I am still just a regional lighting designer.

So yes, there are hundreds of other lighting designers like me. Just like there are hundreds of DJs here just like you. So, what do I do to set myself apart? I offer everything the other regional designers do, but at a better value.

As far as the "game" I don't play them either. I just bid a lighting/video install for a new church. I gave them my bid (which was 30% lower than any of my competitors) and they called back asking for me to lower my price even more. I told them that I could not, they had my lowest bid, anything lower and I don't make any money. I don't play games. I look at the job, submit my bid and that is it. But, that is because I am always the best value. If someone came in with the same thing at the same price, and I wanted the work, I would have to adjust and either make no money (but take it for visibility) or offer to add something that doesn't cost me anything to the package (no cost to me, but the client gets value and I make money). An example of this is when I bid for a show and had the same bid as another designer. I however owned two projectors and he did not. So I offered the use of the projectors in order to win the bid. I provided value (he didn't have to go out and rent projectors).

The church stewed for a week and then called me back and accepted the bid. Why? Because I offer everything else that the other contractor did, but I offered it at a value.

This is the way the real world works.

Mike
 
Mike Im sorry I have not apparently been following you correctly. So you say the cheapest is the best. IF your competition lowered their prices to the basement bottom you might lower yours for exposure? Lose money and push the bar even lower for the next round? Im not following that logic at all and undercutting all your competition likely doesnt give you much room for alliances in your area. That my young friend is the New Real World.Some might even call it cut throat. No slam intended just giving an outsiders thoughts. Your opinions though educated (book sense) has some experience necessary to gain full success. One day if you choose to become a DJ I will personally share 34+ yrs of experience.
One more thing and I think it will help the class so much. How much would you charge using the Glass gobos and a proper machine? How much will you make on it using high end equipment.
Sorry Hank for going way off topic.
 
Jon Tuck said:
Mike Im sorry I have not apparently been following you correctly. So you say the cheapest is the best. IF your competition lowered their prices to the basement bottom you might lower yours for exposure? Lose money and push the bar even lower for the next round? Im not following that logic at all and undercutting all your competition likely doesnt give you much room for alliances in your area. That my young friend is the New Real World.Some might even call it cut throat. No slam intended just giving an outsiders thoughts. Your opinions though educated (book sense) has some experience necessary to gain full success. One day if you choose to become a DJ I will personally share 34+ yrs of experience.
One more thing and I think it will help the class so much. How much would you charge using the Glass gobos and a proper machine? How much will you make on it using high end equipment.
Sorry Hank for going way off topic.
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Hey man, no problem. I only have 10+ years in the industry, but this "theory" has served me well in my time.

I provide the client the best value. He gets the best design, equipment, and service at a discount price. Again, if I am looking at the exact same $10 shirt in Target for $50 at Macy's, why would I go to Macy's and buy it?

It is not all about money. It is about value. There are cheaper lighting designers than me out there. But for the value that you are getting, I am the cheapest.

Yes, if the market deflates (which we are in the middle of) and my competitors lower their prices to get more business, then I will lower mine to the point of breaking even on gigs for the exposure (since most of what I do is labor and not supply though I would have to go VERY low to not make anything, we have to talk about relative profit and not absolute profit). I wouldn't do a lot of break even gigs. But I would do a lot of $75 or $100 gigs if I had to (my normal design rates range from $250-$$$$$). I am not going to price myself out of the market. I am trying to set the market.

I have no alliances except between me and my clients. You can't use multiple designers on a gig. No reason for me to make any "alliances".

I can't quote prices on here (NLFX is a sponsor), but lets just use a generic example. Light A is high end equipment. I buy them for $100, most people sell them for $204, I sell them for $140. Light B is a low end light, which at cost is $60. They sell them for $130 (below my price on the high end equipment) but I sell them for $85. Gobo A (custom) is $20 at cost. My nearest competitor sells them for $60. I sell them for $30.

Note: Those are NOT real prices for real equipment, just illustrations!

Mike
 
I think one day you will value the idea of alliances. It took many yrs and actually some of these forums, then a small business entrepeneurial course I successfully just completed, to truly allow me knowledge of the VALUE of alliances. Its also a fairly common knowledge item that good business allows one to not sell themselves short as it in many cases allows one to paint themselves into a corner and force those prices for future efforts.
 
by the way Im the marketing and sales manager here who has assembled the best sponsors in the business. Remarks about why you cant point people in what you percieve as the best choices in shopping is merely an opinion and due to TOS not allowed so please refrain from making baiting comments and then using the I cant tell ya approach. It comes across as a tease. Thanks for the illustration. I'd be glad to phone you if ya care to discuss this further. Thanks for the understanding.
 
Jon Tuck said:
by the way Im the marketing and sales manager here who has assembled the best sponsors in the business. Remarks about why you cant point people in what you percieve as the best choices in shopping is merely an opinion and due to TOS not allowed so please refrain from making baiting comments and then using the I cant tell ya approach. It comes across as a tease. Thanks for the illustration. I'd be glad to phone you if ya care to discuss this further. Thanks for the understanding.
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Not trying to bait anyone. You asked for the example. You knew I could not give it. You were trying to make me look evasive. So I was simply pointing out that I could not give you the information you sought because it was forbidden, not because I was being elusive. Then I provided a generic example.

I was told by the Mod that I could point people to better deals, just not to my own business. No reason for me to do that, although I am sure I can find better prices out there. So I simply let people know that there are better values out there.

You brought the issue up, you asked the question but now you are attempting to admonish me for abiding by your rules when answering your question. Sorry, but I don't play that game.

As far as alliances, I can see no advantage in it. If I ever hear of any then I will consider it. But at this time the only alliance I need is between me, my suppliers, and my clients.

Mike

If you are looking to make a purchase then back channel me and we can talk specifics.
 
Mike perhaps I wasnt clear. You are correct I asked a simple question of how much you would charge to provide a custom Gobo for a clients event I wasnt asking you to sell us a gobo or a lighting unit.

I was also eluding to you making a sarcastic dig when saying you could tell us where to go for the best price but you have been warned here not to sell product. That was where I see I was totally unclear. Im not attempting admonish you or trick you into a fall. I suppose I should clarify the rule in layman's terms.

You might have gotten a good deal on a custom gobo and someone might ask you where and its ok to share. We dont need re occuring ads ran touting Gobomart at every offer. If indeed our incredible sponsor at NLFX says we dont do those items then by all means sell away. Be very careful though I stand firm beside our sponsors they after all keep this place operating as it has for the past 2 yrs. If you in fact sell these items that is a no no to offer your services either. Unless again of course no one here offers the same service. IF in fact you put up billboards and flashing lights promoting these goods regardless we need to discuss sponsorship as it wouldnt be fair to the ones who are paying to keep ODJT running. I apologize if I didnt state my view correctly (we all seem to have that quality at times) Hope this clarifies and if you have any further questions feel free to pm me or I can phone to discuss further. Thank
 
Jon Tuck said:
Mike perhaps I wasnt clear. You are correct I asked a simple question of how much you would charge to provide a custom Gobo for a clients event I wasnt asking you to sell us a gobo or a lighting unit.

I was also eluding to you making a sarcastic dig when saying you could tell us where to go for the best price but you have been warned here not to sell product. That was where I see I was totally unclear. Im not attempting admonish you or trick you into a fall. I suppose I should clarify the rule in layman's terms.

You might have gotten a good deal on a custom gobo and someone might ask you where and its ok to share. We dont need re occuring ads ran touting Gobomart at every offer. If indeed our incredible sponsor at NLFX says we dont do those items then by all means sell away. Be very careful though I stand firm beside our sponsors they after all keep this place operating as it has for the past 2 yrs. If you in fact sell these items that is a no no to offer your services either. Unless again of course no one here offers the same service. IF in fact you put up billboards and flashing lights promoting these goods regardless we need to discuss sponsorship as it wouldnt be fair to the ones who are paying to keep ODJT running. I apologize if I didnt state my view correctly (we all seem to have that quality at times) Hope this clarifies and if you have any further questions feel free to pm me or I can phone to discuss further. Thank
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Thanks, PM sent.

Mike
 
Ron Auger said:
So I have to ask. Mike, are you a DJ?
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Lighting/video designer, video installer, sound engineer, video editor, graphic designer, web designer, producer, technical director, stage manager, director, cameraman, stagehand, electrician, rigger, business owner, set dresser, and general all around good guy, but no, not a DJ.:sqwink:

Mike
 
to clarify one more thing. I didnt mean you can sell items here unless someone were asking about an item exclusive to your storefront only. Once or twice has been allowed but it would behoove you to then consider sponsorship unless the arena is already covered through another sponsor.
 
Now I understand.

You are trying to compare hiring a DJ for an important event such as a wedding with putting up lights? Your business, although I know nothing of, is in no way comparable to hiring a DJ for an event. I can see you personally hiring a DJ the same way one might hire you to put up lights or install video but most people do not look at it that way.

Most people will hire DJ's primarily based on their skill and talent as an entertainer first as well as from personal referrals. As long as these DJ's are within their budget range. Throwing in extras, in most cases, are not going to close a deal for a special event such as a wedding. Most Brides and Grooms don't want to play the pricing game and will hire DJ's based on emotion. The DJ must be able to show how he as an entertainer, wedding planner, coordinator, etc is going to make their day special and unique and be able to back up his claim. These couples do not want one of the many hundreds of DJ's who are similar but who offers the most stuff. They want the one who's going to make their day special, unique, and not like any other wedding. How they these DJ's go about making this happen is what they need to sell to their clients. So there are not hundreds of DJ's who are similar in that fashion. Not within the same market that is. Or at least not within my market.

This same thing can be said for Anniversary parties, birthday parties, cooperate functions, etc. There are exceptions but those are usually people who are in the lower budget range. If on has $350 - $400 (prices in my market) to spend on a birthday party then they will find many similar DJ's who might be professional but don't usually offer unique service. It is these guys who will usually throw in lights or extra time in order to close a gig.

So in keeping with the thought of this thread clients might visit djslastminute looking for a cheap DJ but after further investigation realize that with the cheaper price comes a different level of service and yes, value.
 
and to add to the BHB aka Ron I will say that its likely why most folks who have claimed leads from this service in fact were for other than wedding events.
 
Ron Auger said:
Now I understand.

You are trying to compare hiring a DJ for an important event such as a wedding with putting up lights? Your business, although I know nothing of, is in no way comparable to hiring a DJ for an event. I can see you personally hiring a DJ the same way one might hire you to put up lights or install video but most people do not look at it that way.

Most people will hire DJ's primarily based on their skill and talent as an entertainer first as well as from personal referrals. As long as these DJ's are within their budget range. Throwing in extras, in most cases, are not going to close a deal for a special event such as a wedding. Most Brides and Grooms don't want to play the pricing game and will hire DJ's based on emotion. The DJ must be able to show how he as an entertainer, wedding planner, coordinator, etc is going to make their day special and unique and be able to back up his claim. These couples do not want one of the many hundreds of DJ's who are similar but who offers the most stuff. They want the one who's going to make their day special, unique, and not like any other wedding. How they these DJ's go about making this happen is what they need to sell to their clients. So there are not hundreds of DJ's who are similar in that fashion. Not within the same market that is. Or at least not within my market.

This same thing can be said for Anniversary parties, birthday parties, cooperate functions, etc. There are exceptions but those are usually people who are in the lower budget range. If on has $350 - $400 (prices in my market) to spend on a birthday party then they will find many similar DJ's who might be professional but don't usually offer unique service. It is these guys who will usually throw in lights or extra time in order to close a gig.

So in keeping with the thought of this thread clients might visit djslastminute looking for a cheap DJ but after further investigation realize that with the cheaper price comes a different level of service and yes, value.
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*lol* Jon told me I would get responses like this. He also told me that a previous LD left the forum. With "respect" like this, I can see why.

Let me just say that I am a lighting designer. I do not "put up lights". However I do not want to get into an ego contest. I will say that you are wrong that DJing and lighting design are very different. They are closer than you might think, except that it appears that DJs have been so closed off from the rest of society that they believe they are above having to sell their services believeing instead that people should come groveling to them.

Mike
 
Mike I must correct you. I told you we had a very intelligent LD who no longer is a frequent member here.
 
*lol* Jon told me I would get responses like this.
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And you didn't expect that? This is Our DJ Talk. And since most of us are DJ's, we tend to talk about our business mostly. Funny how that works.

Let me just say that I am a lighting designer. I do not "put up lights".
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Sorry, but as an average consumer never using a company to do such a job I figure that people in your business set up lights for different events. You put them up in different places and turn them on at certain times. That's about all I know.

I will say that you are wrong that DJing and lighting design are very different.
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No, I am not wrong, that is my opinion. You may not agree with it but it is not wrong.

They are closer than you might think, except that it appears that DJs have been so closed off from the rest of society that they believe they are above having to sell their services believing instead that people should come groveling to them.
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Have you been on the DJA site recently? Those guys mess things up for the rest of us.

Here I think you are a bit mistaken. In all your previous posts you talked about selling value, mostly those who offer equal with the most stuff. You didn't really talk about selling services. If you knew about DJ's then you'd know our services go beyond pushing play and turning on lights and making announcements. In fact service is what we sell. Speaking for myself, I present (not sell)what I do and how I am going to accomplish my goals set forth by the client. Playing music isn't even a part of the equation in the beginning. Equipment, lights, etc means nothing either at this point. Using such things is a given and expected. When I hire a carpenter to build a project for me I don't ask him if he's going to be using Craftsman vs. Hitachi, or tools he purchased at Big Lots. I expect that if I'm paying him top dollar, and I've seen his work before, then I'm getting a true craftsman; a craftsman who know the right tool to use.

The clients already assume I'll be using equipment to do my job. What they want to know is how I will be completing my task of creating memories, involving their guests, interacting with the venue staff, creating and intituting a time-line and event planner, etc. Hours of preparation and preplanning have already taken place at this point and music, lights, equipment, etc haven't even been discussed.

You are correct, I know nothing about the lighting business. I don't use lights nor do my clients ask for them. I wouldn't know what your job entails or how you need to sell it. But you do seem to know a lot about how I offer my business and how I should be selling it. Over 20 years in the business I think I've learned a bit about what my clients are looking for, which clients are looking for what I have to offer, and which clients can afford me. I know who will be my clients and who will not. Is the ego? Damn right it is. If I didn't have an ego to know what I do is good, then I'd be just like the hundreds of other similar DJ's that you deal with.

I think you'll find that many of the professional caring DJ's on this board are not alike at all. We offer many different thinks in many way that make us stand out from those hundreds of other guys. And yes, it takes a bit of an ego to understand that.

Do we expect clients to come crawling to us, begging for us to entertain them? No. What we expect is the clients who are looking for that unique quality that they want to make their function special. And with that comes a price. A price that would not be equal to the other hundreds of DJ's who are similar.

But as always, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong.
 
Ron Auger said:
And you didn't expect that? This is Our DJ Talk. And since most of us are DJ's, we tend to talk about our business mostly. Funny how that works. I guess I can leave if I am not wanted.

Sorry, but as an average consumer never using a company to do such a job I figure that people in your business set up lights for different events. You put them up in different places and turn them on at certain times. That's about all I know. You really should learn not to speak out of ignorance. To say that is like saying all DJs do is set up speakers and push play.

Here I think you are a bit mistaken. In all your previous posts you talked about selling value, mostly those who offer equal with the most stuff. I used add-ons as an example of value. There are other ways to get value. You just keep focusing on the stuff.

You didn't really talk about selling services. The foundation of all this was that we were looking at two equal services. When will you get that?

If you knew about DJ's then you'd know our services go beyond pushing play and turning on lights and making announcements. I know that they do. There are hundreds of DJs that offer the same level of service. That does not set you apart.

In fact service is what we sell. Speaking for myself, I present (not sell)what I do and how I am going to accomplish my goals set forth by the client. So does every other DJ out there.

Playing music isn't even a part of the equation in the beginning. Equipment, lights, etc means nothing either at this point. Using such things is a given and expected. Perhaps you take for granted some things you shouldn't. I have worked with $1500 a night DJs using consumer level equipment.

When I hire a carpenter to build a project for me I don't ask him if he's going to be using Craftsman vs. Hitachi, or tools he purchased at Big Lots. Bad example. Unless you are saying all that matters is that sound is coming out of the speakers. But I don't think that is what you are saying. Is it?

I expect that if I'm paying him top dollar, and I've seen his work before, then I'm getting a true craftsman; a craftsman who know the right tool to use. Non-Sequitor and bad example. What do you mean by the right tool? Like not trying to speak into a speaker? Or having a DI for a keyboard? Again, unless you are saying that all that matters is that sound is coming out of the speakers this is a bad example. A hitachi or a Dewalt both produce the same cut. Do EAW cabinets produce the same sound as the speakers on my bookshelf?

The clients already assume I'll be using equipment to do my job. What they want to know is how I will be completing my task of creating memories, involving their guests, interacting with the venue staff, creating and intituting a time-line and event planner, etc. I want to know those things as well. But there are hundreds of DJs out there that will do all those things just as well as you. What sets you apart?

Hours of preparation and preplanning have already taken place at this point and music, lights, equipment, etc haven't even been discussed. You seem to discount the basics. Years of experience have taught me to start with the basics. No question is too basic.

You are correct, I know nothing about the lighting business. How refreshing. I don't use lights nor do my clients ask for them. I wouldn't know what your job entails or how you need to sell it. But you do seem to know a lot about how I offer my business and how I should be selling it. Service industry is service industry when we are talking about business models. Service industries are about offering a superior service at a good value. No matter what.

Over 20 years in the business I think I've learned a bit about what my clients are looking for, which clients are looking for what I have to offer, and which clients can afford me. I know who will be my clients and who will not. Is the ego? Damn right it is. If I didn't have an ego to know what I do is good, then I'd be just like the hundreds of other similar DJ's that you deal with. But you are. You have ego but no humility to go with it. I am so glad I was part of the program that I got to be a part of, where they taught us not only how to take pride in our work, but also to balance that with humility. I am one of the best in the area at what I do. But if I stop offering value, then my business will be overtaken by my competitors.

I think you'll find that many of the professional caring DJ's on this board are not alike at all. We offer many different thinks in many way that make us stand out from those hundreds of other guys. And yes, it takes a bit of an ego to understand that. So far I have not heard anyone tell me anything that makes them different (save the dual DJ approach and the magic tricks). Why? Because there are hundreds of DJs that are professional, have professional equipment, are entertaining, can work with other vendors, will work with me to make my day special, blah blah blah.

Do we expect clients to come crawling to us, begging for us to entertain them? No. What we expect is the clients who are looking for that unique quality that they want to make their function special. What unique quality? So far you say the same thing as many, many other DJs and offer the same support, but claim you are unique. And with that comes a price. A price that would not be equal to the other hundreds of DJ's who are similar. Wow, the complete and utter lack of humility here is amazing. There are hundreds of other DJs just like you and hundreds more that are better. There are better ones that charge more than you and better ones that charge less. I know that is hard to hear. But so are many things. That doesn't make them any less true.

But as always, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong.
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Mine as well.

Mike
 
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