Live Sound Reinforcement

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T

Thomas

DJ Extraordinaire
Apr 14, 2009
900
76
56
Hamilton, IL
www.pulse-audio.com
Does anyone here do live sound reinforcement/pa for bands as well as DJ?

I have been doing it more and more here lately and for me it's a lot more challenging than just DJ'ing. There has also been some growing pains, as my credit card and Ben can attest to.

Anyway I am thinking that if I am going to get more into it I need to upgrade a few more things. Mainly mixer and monitors for starts probably add a couple effects when I go with a new board. The one I use now has them built in. Good board just too small.

I just can't make up my mind which one I like with the mixer...... Allen & Heath have some nice ones, then there is Soundcraft, and the Behringer Eurodesk look good for the money as well. I was thinking about a 32channel with at least 6 aux sends for monitors.

Anyone have any thoughts. When I get done I am wanting the total system to be in the 20k watt range or so.
 
And our favorite PITA Duke Spread Em' yorofl:


;)
 
I do, been doing that now for quite some time.
 
We are a Production company that does primarily Live Sound and concert events. My first piece of advice if you're looking into moving to Live sound is to just realize that those strains on your wallet are never ending. You have to go leagues above the level of equipment used when DJ'ing. For example the speakers we use for Live Sound and Production is the EV Phoenix line. We use a lot of our DJ level gear as fills for these events. Although this all depends on the size events you are doing, if you're doing primarily gigs for bands in bars then you can probably use the Dual 18's and Dual 15's from the Tour X line and be just fine.

For Sound boards if you're looking at Analog boards i definitely recommend the Midas or at least the Allen & Heath GL series boards and you do want at least 32 Channels to start. Now, if you're shopping used , try to find yourself a Mackie 32X8 board, that is still to this day one of my favorite Analog boards, i'll never sell that one. Now if you're looking to go digital ( a much larger investment ) look at the Allen & Heath ILive T112. This is the board i use most often and it's GREAT. Also Yamaha has some nice digital boards for an affordable price. A benefit to the Digital boards is you'll get most of your effects and Compressors built in which helps to justify some of that extra cost.

If you go with an Analog board you'll want to buy a nice Snake to run from your console to the stage. You can customize the snake you order to the inputs you want for your set-ups. 150 FT should be enough for most occasions, we use 200 ft. Snakes but rarely need that entire length. And again, if you're doing primarily bar gigs then your snake can be much shorter. The digital boards only have a Cat5 cable that runs from the boards to the " Box " on the stage.

Monitoring is personal preference and in my experience is the one thing we are constantly improving. I still haven't come up with a perfect monitoring set-up i'm happy with. But to be cost effective starting out, something like JBL Eons or something similar is a good start before you move into larger level monitors.

Lastly, just remember protect your investment. Watch your levels, use compression, and just have fun! I truly believe to succeed in Live Sound and Production you have to be very passionate about what you do. Realize there's always something to buy and it involves a lot of work. If you're like me though, seeing it all come together is what keeps me in this business. Good luck!
 
I do SR mostly for other DJs in Clubs, the equipment does not go out without me. I have done some bands but not on a large scale, mostly the Mic/PA and Keyboard parts.
 
Loneavenger said:
We are a Production company that does primarily Live Sound and concert events. My first piece of advice if you're looking into moving to Live sound is to just realize that those strains on your wallet are never ending. You have to go leagues above the level of equipment used when DJ'ing. For example the speakers we use for Live Sound and Production is the EV Phoenix line. We use a lot of our DJ level gear as fills for these events. Although this all depends on the size events you are doing, if you're doing primarily gigs for bands in bars then you can probably use the Dual 18's and Dual 15's from the Tour X line and be just fine.

For Sound boards if you're looking at Analog boards i definitely recommend the Midas or at least the Allen & Heath GL series boards and you do want at least 32 Channels to start. Now, if you're shopping used , try to find yourself a Mackie 32X8 board, that is still to this day one of my favorite Analog boards, i'll never sell that one. Now if you're looking to go digital ( a much larger investment ) look at the Allen & Heath ILive T112. This is the board i use most often and it's GREAT. Also Yamaha has some nice digital boards for an affordable price. A benefit to the Digital boards is you'll get most of your effects and Compressors built in which helps to justify some of that extra cost.

If you go with an Analog board you'll want to buy a nice Snake to run from your console to the stage. You can customize the snake you order to the inputs you want for your set-ups. 150 FT should be enough for most occasions, we use 200 ft. Snakes but rarely need that entire length. And again, if you're doing primarily bar gigs then your snake can be much shorter. The digital boards only have a Cat5 cable that runs from the boards to the " Box " on the stage.

Monitoring is personal preference and in my experience is the one thing we are constantly improving. I still haven't come up with a perfect monitoring set-up i'm happy with. But to be cost effective starting out, something like JBL Eons or something similar is a good start before you move into larger level monitors.

Lastly, just remember protect your investment. Watch your levels, use compression, and just have fun! I truly believe to succeed in Live Sound and Production you have to be very passionate about what you do. Realize there's always something to buy and it involves a lot of work. If you're like me though, seeing it all come together is what keeps me in this business. Good luck!
Click to expand...


I was looking at the Allen & Heath GL280032 to start. If my system grows enough I can switch it over to my monitor mixer. I already have a 16 ch snake with 4 returns I was just going to add a second to that. Most of the events that I have been doing are outdoor events for around 1000 people or so. The gear I have works, but there is so much room for improvement. I figure if I am going to do it, I need to be doing it right.

For speakers I have been looking at the JBL MRX series, using 4 of the dual 15 cabs and 6 or 8 of the dual 18 cabs with a tri-amp set up. I think I want to go with individual effects, that way I am not limited by the board and I can add, re-arrange, or change as needed.

The one thing that I have gotten as feedback from the bands that I am doing it for now is that each one of them want their own monitor channel for the most part. If you have a good band it is pretty easy to mix them and it's a blast, but some of them......wow......no matter how good the gear, you just can't substitute for talent. But they pay the same so I do my best.
 
As someone who spent many years in bands, watching how the band members, and artists, and sometimes even me abused the sound guys unmercifully..............don't do it. Bands are worse than the little old lady blue hair that gets seated right in front of your speakers at weddings.

I'd rather host karaoke nights at the VFW than sound for bands and I'd rather have a root canal without anesthesia than host a karaoke night.
 
badblood70 said:
I was looking at the Allen & Heath GL280032 to start. If my system grows enough I can switch it over to my monitor mixer. I already have a 16 ch snake with 4 returns I was just going to add a second to that. Most of the events that I have been doing are outdoor events for around 1000 people or so. The gear I have works, but there is so much room for improvement. I figure if I am going to do it, I need to be doing it right.

For speakers I have been looking at the JBL MRX series, using 4 of the dual 15 cabs and 6 or 8 of the dual 18 cabs with a tri-amp set up. I think I want to go with individual effects, that way I am not limited by the board and I can add, re-arrange, or change as needed.

The one thing that I have gotten as feedback from the bands that I am doing it for now is that each one of them want their own monitor channel for the most part. If you have a good band it is pretty easy to mix them and it's a blast, but some of them......wow......no matter how good the gear, you just can't substitute for talent. But they pay the same so I do my best.
Click to expand...

It sounds like you have the right idea. The GL boards are great and you'll love it :) A second snake will do great, that's exactly what i did when i first started out, i had 2 16 channel snakes and it works great, and actually an advantage to that is you could have a box on each side of the stage if you'd like for inputs.

I'm an EV guy so i don't have a lot of experience with those JBL's but i've heard good things about them and it sounds like you're looking to invest in enough of them to have plenty of power for the size crowd you described. And you already seem to realize how much this is going to cost so all i have to say is GOOD LUCK! It's something I love and it sounds like you do also so enjoy it.


rickryan.com said:
As someone who spent many years in bands, watching how the band members, and artists, and sometimes even me abused the sound guys unmercifully..............don't do it. Bands are worse than the little old lady blue hair that gets seated right in front of your speakers at weddings.
Click to expand...

You do have to be prepared to deal with a certain attitude sometimes i'd agree there's not always a lot of recognition or glory in Live Sound but more often than not bands are great to work with and a lot of fun. ESPECIALLY if you work hard to have all the necessary gear and work hard to make the band sound as good as possible, you shouldn't have many issues.
 
rickryan.com said:
As someone who spent many years in bands, watching how the band members, and artists, and sometimes even me abused the sound guys unmercifully..............don't do it. Bands are worse than the little old lady blue hair that gets seated right in front of your speakers at weddings.

I'd rather host karaoke nights at the VFW than sound for bands and I'd rather have a root canal without anesthesia than host a karaoke night.
Click to expand...


I take a pretty simple approach to that......I'm the biggest A$$hole there. They do it my way. I have found that if you let the musicians make the decisions it doesn't work well, so I just don't give them a choice. They or the venue has hired me to do a job, so that is what I do. I mic everything, supply all the vocal mics and stands, I run the sound check set my levels to what sounds good to me and go with it. I have had a few try to tell me what to do. I just explain it to them, I don't tell them how to sing or play their instrument so don't tell me how to run my board. They do their job and I will do mine. They get a little grumbly at first but when it rocks out better than they expected, everyone goes home happy.

I have done sound for 16 bands so far this year at assorted venues, I have already been booked for 2 festivals and 3 county fairs for next year. I could do it with the gear I have now, but I am always wanting to improve. The gear is definately more expensive than DJ gear so it is going to take a little longer to pay off, but it also opens a few doors for DJ'ing larger events also. I am looking at using powered monitors so they can double as mains at smaller DJ venues without much hassle. I am making the equipment I have more modular so I can mix and match depending on what I need.

When all is said and done I will have a total of 8 dual 15 cabs and 8-10 dual 18 cabs with close to 30k watts, 4 powered 12 cabs, 3 mixers (1 live 1 dj and 1 karaoke), and 2 cargo trailers.

For the live sound I am looking at running one amp per cab. That way if I lose an amp or a cabinet just shut it down and keep on rocking. A little cashier that way, but much cheaper than a bad rep or a blown performance.
 
I'm the mobile type, so can I ask some questions? I'm not ignorant, but I haven't done SR for a band before (other than pumping them through my own system and not one designed for a band).

badblood70 said:
I already have a 16 ch snake with 4 returns I was just going to add a second to that. Most of the events that I have been doing are outdoor events for around 1000 people or so.
Click to expand...

The snake is your wrapped cables to and from the stage. I imagine you can use what you need in the snake and leave the rest alone. One cable per channel. Does the 2nd snake serve as a backup just in case? What are the returns for? Monitors on the stage?

badblood70 said:
For speakers I have been looking at the JBL MRX series, using 4 of the dual 15 cabs and 6 or 8 of the dual 18 cabs with a tri-amp set up.
Click to expand...

4 dual 15's - 2 per side? In parallel?
6/8 dual 18's - - 2 per side? In parallel?

Tri-amp'd how?

badblood70 said:
The one thing that I have gotten as feedback from the bands that I am doing it for now is that each one of them want their own monitor channel for the most part.
Click to expand...

Do these use the returns?
 
badblood70 said:
I take a pretty simple approach to that......I'm the biggest A$$hole there. They do it my way. I have found that if you let the musicians make the decisions it doesn't work well, so I just don't give them a choice. They or the venue has hired me to do a job, so that is what I do. I mic everything, supply all the vocal mics and stands, I run the sound check set my levels to what sounds good to me and go with it. I have had a few try to tell me what to do. I just explain it to them, I don't tell them how to sing or play their instrument so don't tell me how to run my board. They do their job and I will do mine. They get a little grumbly at first but when it rocks out better than they expected, everyone goes home happy.

I have done sound for 16 bands so far this year at assorted venues, I have already been booked for 2 festivals and 3 county fairs for next year. I could do it with the gear I have now, but I am always wanting to improve. The gear is definately more expensive than DJ gear so it is going to take a little longer to pay off, but it also opens a few doors for DJ'ing larger events also. I am looking at using powered monitors so they can double as mains at smaller DJ venues without much hassle. I am making the equipment I have more modular so I can mix and match depending on what I need.

When all is said and done I will have a total of 8 dual 15 cabs and 8-10 dual 18 cabs with close to 30k watts, 4 powered 12 cabs, 3 mixers (1 live 1 dj and 1 karaoke), and 2 cargo trailers.

For the live sound I am looking at running one amp per cab. That way if I lose an amp or a cabinet just shut it down and keep on rocking. A little cashier that way, but much cheaper than a bad rep or a blown performance.
Click to expand...
Wow what a concept Blood. DJs arent use to being in charge of their operation and do as they are told even from people whom have no part in the customer contract betweeon them and their contract. Way to go. Confidence and direction to provide your services as presented should always number one and other voices have no validity. Your customer is your customer and no one else has a stake in the claim.
 
There is SO much that could be said about the "Live sound" aspect.....Start buying lottery tickets! And stay away from Behringer mixers.
Having something with 6 auxes is VERY good....You should have the ability to give a band 4 monitor mixes...(the good $$ bands will require it)

The best place to buy gear for live sound on the cheap can be found here: http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php#c1

If your buying multiple's of Double 15 cabs, be sure there designed to be splayed...(Narrow horns) not 120 deg horns like DJ speakers have
 
Badblood,
Have you taken a look at the JBL SRX 728s for subs? They are pretty impressive. How about the Vertecs as tops? You will probably need to fly those especially when using multiples as they are mounted vertically not horizontally.
 
ahoustondj said:
Badblood,
Have you taken a look at the JBL SRX 728s for subs? They are pretty impressive. How about the Vertecs as tops? You will probably need to fly those especially when using multiples as they are mounted vertically not horizontally.
Click to expand...

I have looked and drooled at them, but one must learn to walk before they can run. Right now my gigs are small stages and flatbed trailers around 1000 people or so. The system I am building should be good for 2500 to 4000. And it's a little old school in design, but it is what I understand. If I make a go at it and as my experience grows I will look into things like hanging arrays etc. I have to keep a few things on the wish list.
 
badblood70 said:
I have looked and drooled at them, but one must learn to walk before they can run. Right now my gigs are small stages and flatbed trailers around 1000 people or so. The system I am building should be good for 2500 to 4000. And it's a little old school in design, but it is what I understand. If I make a go at it and as my experience grows I will look into things like hanging arrays etc. I have to keep a few things on the wish list.
Click to expand...
Some Vertecs can be Pole mounted, I think up to two per side.
 
ittigger said:
I'm the mobile type, so can I ask some questions? I'm not ignorant, but I haven't done SR for a band before (other than pumping them through my own system and not one designed for a band).



The snake is your wrapped cables to and from the stage. I imagine you can use what you need in the snake and leave the rest alone. One cable per channel. Does the 2nd snake serve as a backup just in case? What are the returns for? Monitors on the stage?

I am looking at getting a 32 channel mixer so I would need 2 - 16 channel to make full use of my board.

Returns are used to send the monitors back, send effects, or send signal to amp racks on the stage



4 dual 15's - 2 per side? In parallel?
6/8 dual 18's - - 2 per side? In parallel?

Tri-amp'd how?


I have a DBX drive rack so I will use a 3-way stereo crossover.

I am going to use the MRX525 dual 15" cabs and the MRX528s dual 18" subs. I am using 1 amp per cabinet bridged into 4 ohms so I get the most out of each amp and each cabinet. So I will put approx 500w to the tweet in the 15" cabinet, 3000w to the 2 15" and 4000 watts to the dual 18" cabs.

So for 4 dual 15" cabinets and 6 sub cabinets I will be using 14 amps pushing approx 38,000 watts.


Do these use the returns?
Click to expand...


Return basicly means you are returning a signal to the source aka stage
 
I have several more hours of research and math before I commit and start buying. It's probably going to be a winter project to put together. I wanted to do it like I did my DJ system, buy a simple cheap system and expand and upgrade as I made money at it. I operate debt free and I only upgrade when the existing gear pays for the upgrades. But I couldn't figure out a way to do this that way without putting up a chunk up front. Skimping on the onset would probably cost business because I couldn't deliver. There will always be upgrades, but I need a solid system to start with.
 
ittigger said:
I'm the mobile type, so can I ask some questions? I'm not ignorant, but I haven't done SR for a band before (other than pumping them through my own system and not one designed for a band).

The snake is your wrapped cables to and from the stage. I imagine you can use what you need in the snake and leave the rest alone. One cable per channel. Does the 2nd snake serve as a backup just in case? What are the returns for? Monitors on the stage?

I am looking at getting a 32 channel mixer so I would need 2 - 16 channel to make full use of my board.

Returns are used to send the monitors back, send effects, or send signal to amp racks on the stage
Click to expand...

Would you need / be using all 32 channels. If you have 4 returns (is this like 1 XLR x 4?) and would that be 1 for each amp?

ittigger said:
4 dual 15's - 2 per side? In parallel?
6/8 dual 18's - - 2 per side? In parallel?

Tri-amp'd how?


I have a DBX drive rack so I will use a 3-way stereo crossover.

I am going to use the MRX525 dual 15" cabs and the MRX528s dual 18" subs. I am using 1 amp per cabinet bridged into 4 ohms so I get the most out of each amp and each cabinet. So I will put approx 500w to the tweet in the 15" cabinet, 3000w to the 2 15" and 4000 watts to the dual 18" cabs.

So for 4 dual 15" cabinets and 6 sub cabinets I will be using 14 amps pushing approx 38,000 watts.
Click to expand...

Frickin' Awesome!

Do these use the returns?

badblood70 said:
Return basicly means you are returning a signal to the source aka stage
Click to expand...

So 4 returns is 4 cables returning from you back to the stage within the snake?
 
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