Small System Design Suggestions Needed

[steve149]

While I am still working on my All-American (and maybe Canadian) standard system (I picked up a Rane MP25 mixer and will probably be going with the QSC KW122s over KW181s .. my JBL PRX will do top duty for now) ... I am interested in replacing my larger system (Yorkville Unity tops/subs) with a small system, so I'll have medium and small, and will rent should I need large again.

So ....

Looking for experience in any of these tops or subs ... I'd like to stay with an 8" top and probably a 12" sub, otherwise, it wouldn't be all that much of a jump up to the 12s over 18s I'll have. And active only for these.

The Bose L1 1s w/B2s is on the top end of the range I would entertain ($3500 for a pair/set), and I love the look and sound, I'd prefer sticking under $2500 and I know I can do it with most of the following:

For tops, I am considering EV ZXA1, QSC K8, Yamaha DXR8 and if I can find them, the DB Technologies F-8. I am looking for a full face grill, no exposed horn, which eliminate a couple others like FBT and RCF.

For subs, most likely the EV ZXA1-Sub or the Yamaha DXS12 (again, if I look at 15s, I might as well be bringing the slightly larger 18s). Not sure what else is out there in the powered 12" (or super small 15").

Thoughts ???

 

[Ausumm]

As I've said before, I do like the EV ZXA1 combo.
I like the sound, and the weight vs. power ratio is quite nice for smaller gigs.

 

[Scott Harris]

I find that dropping down smaller than a 12" main requires bumping up the crossover point to 150hz or higher which gets into the directional portion of sound. This means male vocals, low guitar notes, bass notes, etc. will move between the mains & subs. This might not be very noticeable if you are stacking the mains right over the subs and keep them paired, but if you only have one sub or center cluster then it will be noticeable to those who pay attention to such details. Even for a ceremony rig it may be a problem if someone has a deep voice, so I would only use this with paired subs.

 

[soundinmotiondj]

Any reasonable 8" main can handle content above 100-110Hz. A 10" main can handle above 90Hz, a 12" main can handle above 70-80Hz, and a 15" main can handle content above 60-70Hz. All of the specific suggestions made so far could easily handle content to 100Hz, except the Bose...but they are paired with the B1. There is no reason for a top that can not get below 150Hz to be used in a Pro-Audio setup.

Personally, I find that the K10 is the "sweet spot" in the QSC K top series. It can be used stand alone for a wedding ceremony and for spoken word, and it pairs nicely with a sub for music.

 

[steve149]

Since I will have 2 pair of 12" tops at some point soon, 10s will be too close .. thus the desire for the hopefully even lighter package of a set of 8s.

I would assume a crossover point of approx 120Hz with 8s, since I use 100 for my 12s (90 for my 15s), but will play with that either through the Driverack or through the speaker back panel if they have an adjustable point. This is really to get as small a system that will work for a small group and not sound too lightweight. If after listening to them in the next few weeks I find it lacking, I will re-evaluate.I do not expect to use a pair of 8s without a sub for anything other than maybe a vocal enhancement setup.

 

[soundinmotiondj]

Since I will have 2 pair of 12" tops at some point soon, 10s will be too close .. thus the desire for the hopefully even lighter package of a set of 8s.

I would assume a crossover point of approx 120Hz with 8s, since I use 100 for my 12s (90 for my 15s), but will play with that either through the Driverack or through the speaker back panel if they have an adjustable point.

Those high pass points all sound "conservative." Look at the SPL charts for the cabinets (including the subs) and find the corner frequency.

The spec sheet for the K8 notes that the -6dB point is 66 Hz - 18k Hz. While the SPL chart is not "obviously" available....getting this box to 100Hz should NOT be an issue.

 

[Scott Harris]

I call BS on any ratings that show an 8" woofer in a pole mounted PA speaker providing 100hz anywhere near flat response with the rest of the speaker. Most 12's can't even do that! Look VERY closely at vendor specs, many are plus & minus, many are using smoothing and almost all are using half space. A speaker on a pole is NOT half space! Listen to the speakers playing a kick drum and low synth notes. Many 15" speakers struggle to push 100hz on a pole!

EDIT - I am focusing on typical MI DJ speakers, obviously there are pro models that have bass extension but pro speakers typically stop at 12" for mains although there are some 10" monitors that get down under 100hz.

 

[soundinmotiondj]

I call BS on any ratings that show an 8" woofer in a pole mounted PA speaker providing 100hz anywhere near flat response with the rest of the speaker.

What "rest of the speakers"???? The OP is asking about a lightweight system with two tops and a single sub.

A pair of 8's with one 12" loaded sub, like the EV ZXA1 system, would be a reasonable for 50-75 people events. I would not use a system like this for a high school prom, or for a DnB party...but neither would the OP. The sub -3dB point is just over 90Hz. Putting the crossover point at 120Hz would be nutty....the response in the 90-120Hz range would be noticeably diminished.

Tops are directional enough that boundary reinforcement isn't really an issue...so they can all be treated as "free space." Even at 100Hz, a wavelength is 11.3ft, so 1/4 wavelength is 2.8ft. How often do you place tops within 2.8ft of a boundary (most likely the ceiling?)?

 

[steve149]

What "rest of the speakers"???? The OP is asking about a lightweight system with two tops and a single sub.

A pair of 8's with one 12" loaded sub, like the EV ZXA1 system, would be a reasonable for 50-75 people events. I would not use a system like this for a high school prom, or for a DnB party...but neither would the OP. The sub -3dB point is just over 90Hz. Putting the crossover point at 120Hz would be nutty....the response in the 90-120Hz range would be noticeably diminished.

Tops are directional enough that boundary reinforcement isn't really an issue...so they can all be treated as "free space." Even at 100Hz, a wavelength is 11.3ft, so 1/4 wavelength is 2.8ft. How often do you place tops within 2.8ft of a boundary (most likely the ceiling?)?

2 subs actually (for clarification). One under each top.

 

[soundinmotiondj]

2 subs actually (for clarification). One under each top.

Do not do that, unless the two subs will be touching, and the tops cross firing in an "X" arrangement.

The best placement for tops is (almost) never the best placement for subs. With a small system, "best practice" placement is a MUST...otherwise you will be tempted to get more out of the system than it can deliver.

 

[steve149]

Do not do that, unless the two subs will be touching, and the tops cross firing in an "X" arrangement.

The best placement for tops is (almost) never the best placement for subs. With a small system, "best practice" placement is a MUST...otherwise you will be tempted to get more out of the system than it can deliver.

I'll disagree here (that it's the best placement for my needs). While center coupling or boundary loading a sub may give optimal performance, I'm looking for a combination of performance AND aesthetics, and for me, that will be with the tops mounted over the subs (unless a specific venue has issues that warrant an alternative). Part of the small system is a small system look, so I'd like to not bring in the Ultimate stands and simply use a telescoping sub pole.

So I'll shoot for setting up the tops appropriately and having the subs be there too. I'll adjust for any delay issues with the DriveRack.

 

[soundinmotiondj]

I'm looking for a combination of performance AND aesthetics, and for me, that will be with the tops mounted over the subs

Fair enough. You can always turn one of the subs off. That would get you the aesthetics that you are looking for, without introducing any issues with the low frequency sound.

 

[rickryan.com]

I own both the Bose L1 (double subs) and a pair of the ZXa1s. I wouldn't recommend either one of those. The Bose is really great for smaller events and it sounds wonderful but I always have the feeling that it lacks punch. The ZXa1 also is, in my opinion, WAY less power than the rated 800 watts. I'd probably put it more in the 200-watt category. I do keep them and use them occasionally as either wireless remotes or for ceremonies. They sound really good, but only if used in a teeny-tiny room. The last event I remember actually liking them was maybe 30 people in a tiny hotel meeting room. A featherweight amp (Peavey IPR3000s) and whatever passives you like would probably make for a much more versatile (and potent) system.