Upgrading To 4 Way?

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SO stay with that setup .. just switch out the scoops for the SRXs. I use 3-way as well .. My Yorkville U15s are bi-amped (QSC 3102/2502), but they're in the same box and the crossover is designed specifically for them. Once you start mixing different driver types and playing with arrangements .. then you run into issues. For example, the Ashly crossover above (a real nice unit BTW) doesn't have provision for handling drivers that need delay. A set of scoops and a set of direct firing subs will have different sound arrival times due to their design. A lot also depends on the room makeup. Clubs have a tendency to circle the dance floor with speakers, making it really difficult to get a good sound (probably why most just set treble and bass on high and just go with that).
 
Steve my mids and highs are in the same box also and bi-amped...
 
ahoustondj said:
Since it is a Club Setting there is a possibility I then may stay 3 way and use these as tops. I will have them flown from the ceiling. http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=407&MId=2 The 728s will be on the Floor Of course new amps will have to be purchased. I know the Crown ITechs HD drive these properly.
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For the price of those, you might as well fly a VRX932 powered box .. same basic price and probably a better fit. I think those AEs are more cinema oriented.
 
But the crossover only handles certain pieces .. still need to match directional characteristics and timing issues which they don't address. Don't overcomplicate what you need .. simplify .. be Simply Canute .
 
steve149 said:
But the crossover only handles certain pieces .. still need to match directional characteristics and timing issues which they don't address. Don't overcomplicate what you need .. simplify .. be Simply Canute .
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My post #26 was in reference to DRZINC's answer.
 
steve149 said:
For the price of those, you might as well fly a VRX932 powered box .. same basic price and probably a better fit. I think those AEs are more cinema oriented.
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That JBL VRX932 needs 5 to be in a correct array. Besides, when going three way, I really want true Bass, Mids and Highs which can each be separately fed their own signal and powered by three separate signals coming in and three separate amps delivering the power.
 
Yes a simple 4 way crossover will not suffice a DSP has to be used. Canute the DSP (DCX2496) I use is a true crossover, limiter, eq and time align machine, it will do six different frequencies if run in mono. So two of then will do a full 4 way system and still have outputs left and with that two extra uotputs you can do things like monitor speakers for the dj (in full range mode and time alligned) and also properly eqd stage monitors for a band per say.
 
ahoustondj said:
That JBL VRX932 needs 5 to be in a correct array. Besides, when going three way, I really want true Bass, Mids and Highs which can each be separately fed their own signal and powered by three separate signals coming in and three separate amps delivering the power.
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You don't need 5 of the VRX as you don't need to array them .. they can be used singly or in pairs. Why do you need to separate the mids and highs? There is no inherent benefit if the pieces are designed properly. A set of SRX subs, along with a proper set of upper cabinets and a 2-way crossover is what the vast majority of systems use. I only said the VRX tops as you had pointed to some AE ones, but a pair of SRX 722s or some other top like a Danley Synergy Horn or a one of the JTR Triples would also be nice. Anther option is the EV QRx. These are all heavily used club speakers (you can also look at the small Vertecs. Two cabinets of line array elements are great club setups. I did a fundraiser at a nearby club that used passive Vertec cabinets (2 per cluster) spread throughout.
 
steve149 said:
You don't need 5 of the VRX as you don't need to array them .. they can be used singly or in pairs. Why do you need to separate the mids and highs? There is no inherent benefit if the pieces are designed properly. A set of SRX subs, along with a proper set of upper cabinets and a 2-way crossover is what the vast majority of systems use. I only said the VRX tops as you had pointed to some AE ones, but a pair of SRX 722s or some other top like a Danley Synergy Horn or a one of the JTR Triples would also be nice. Anther option is the EV QRx. These are all heavily used club speakers (you can also look at the small Vertecs. Two cabinets of line array elements are great club setups. I did a fundraiser at a nearby club that used passive Vertec cabinets (2 per cluster) spread throughout.
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OK Steve and others, allow me to explain in a bit more detail. If I want a three way syatem (I have one) or four way. I do not want any internal electronics splitting or changing the signal after it is sent from the Main Electronic Crossover. Right now, when I use it, my Subs get a pure bass signal and plays only Bass (The Cutoff frequency sent by the Crossover), My Midrange gets a Midrange signal etc. my Tweeter(s) get their own signal etc. The only thing that can be added in the chain after the Source Processors is a Delay.

It is OK for me to have Tweeters and Midrange in one cabinet but they have to be Bi amped. What I DO NOT want is a Mid and Hi Signal being sent up to a full range two way box. This is why I like the Bose 802 so much. I can use it as Mid and Highs in a two way configuration or insert it in my 3 way system as a substitute for either Mids OR Highs. They work well.

I would not be interested in using, for example, in a two way electronic system, a QSC K12 to provide Mid and Highs with subs. There are some chaps who have Two way mains with a full range signal going in and then add powered subs (With their own bypass filter)...these guys call that a Two Way System when in all actuality it is a full range system with added bass. Sure it may be a two way box but the frequencies are still separated passively.
 
I understand what you want, I don't understand why ... If you have an external crossover (ashley, dbx DriveRack, etc.) splitting a signal to a sub and let's say an active top, the active top still only gets the appropriate signals and then splits the signal again to it's drivers the most efficient way. A pretty standard (and much more so than separate driver boxes) setup. The top boxes I recommended above are bi-ampable (well at least the EV and JBL ones are). I was not insinuating you use the passive crossovers. You do not need separate actual boxes with the inherent issues associated with them to use 2 amplifiers per box. The Danleys and JTRs have passive crossovers because of their special designs. I'm just saying if you are seriously considering the club scene, a different system structure might be in order.
 
steve149 said:
I understand what you want, I don't understand why ... If you have an external crossover (ashley, dbx DriveRack, etc.) splitting a signal to a sub and let's say an active top, the active top still only gets the appropriate signals and then splits the signal again to it's drivers the most efficient way. A pretty standard (and much more so than separate driver boxes) setup. The top boxes I recommended above are bi-ampable (well at least the EV and JBL ones are). I was not insinuating you use the passive crossovers. You do not need separate actual boxes with the inherent issues associated with them to use 2 amplifiers per box. The Danleys and JTRs have passive crossovers because of their special designs. I'm just saying if you are seriously considering the club scene, a different system structure might be in order.
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I understand what you are proposing. To answer your question as to what I want what I do, When I do 3 Ways Systems, the clarity is awesome. For Karaoke, Sound Reinforcement and Club Hip Hop acts. People comment on that when they hear my system There is another guy who does one of the Clubs I used to do, he uses double SRX 728s for Bass and sometimes Mackie or QSC tops. He beats me on Bass the boomier type but I beat him on a punchier Bass, Midrange and Highs clarity. I want to preserve that aspect.

People love to sing in my Karaoke Shows when I am using either 2 Way and especially 3 way systems. Last week I dropped in at a Club in my area that does Karaoke. The guy was using a desktop, two powered 12 " Eons, no subs and a four channel Mic Mixer. WTF, in a Club!! I believe the capacity of the place is like 350. There is no way I would use a system like that in a club. That is what most DJs use though, the bare minimum, especially Karaoke Hosts. I prefer to be different and it shows.
 
I still think your trying to over complicate things Canute. I run a 3-way rig...And YES it is powered by 3 seperate amps, etc... My tops have NL4's in them, and the signal is supplied by 4 wire cable...
there is no x-over in my boxes at all.

Which if you get SRX or EV boxes it's pretty easy to just eliminate or by-pass the internal stuff if you insist on setting everything yourself. I understand why you want that ability....It is nice to be able to cut the Hi-end back at times so it doesnt cut your face off.. I use that on my rig in smaller places all the time
 
ahoustondj said:
I understand what you are proposing. To answer your question as to what I want what I do, When I do 3 Ways Systems, the clarity is awesome. For Karaoke, Sound Reinforcement and Club Hip Hop acts. People comment on that when they hear my system There is another guy who does one of the Clubs I used to do, he uses double SRX 728s for Bass and sometimes Mackie or QSC tops. He beats me on Bass the boomier type but I beat him on a punchier Bass, Midrange and Highs clarity. I want to preserve that aspect.

People love to sing in my Karaoke Shows when I am using either 2 Way and especially 3 way systems. Last week I dropped in at a Club in my area that does Karaoke. The guy was using a desktop, two powered 12 " Eons, no subs and a four channel Mic Mixer. WTF, in a Club!! I believe the capacity of the place is like 350. There is no way I would use a system like that in a club. That is what most DJs use though, the bare minimum, especially Karaoke Hosts. I prefer to be different and it shows.
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I understand the desire for control and quality sound .. I was merely debating that you do not need to go to 4 separate driver boxes to get it and the issues that then have to be managed. And while I believe the 802s to be superb vocal reproducers for karaoke (they are designed for presentation work), if you're doing a club gig and heavy on the club, there may be better choices if you're not just doing a one or 2 off. As they say, everything is a compromise .. compromise well.
 
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