Alternative to 3-way speakers?

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J

jclaydon

New DJ
Jan 23, 2008
447
0
57
High River, AB
Ok your talking to someone who doesn't have a CLUE about this stuff but i was wondering if there was a way to use a power amp to power two main speakers for music and then use a third speaker/amp to send the vocals to exclusively.

Might actually be more expensive long term than buying three way speakers, but at least I'd be able to break up the cost a little at a time.


If it is possible, would it be equivalent or not as good a solution?

thanks

-James
 
Not sure I understand what you're looking for...

A 3 way passive speaker simply breaks the full spectrum down into 3 parts based on the crossover points it has inside...

if you're TRi-amping, it means you're using a separate amp for each speaker inside the cabinet (one for woofer, one for mid, one for tweeter)

As for sending vocals to one speaker, you cannot do that, because it's part of the mix...

if a third of the system is missing, that'sgoing to be 1/3 of the entire frequency range, so nothing will sound good..

2 Way speakers will do you just fine , unless you're doing live sound, or just really really want 3 way cabinets.. however, unless they're passive, with a set crossover, most people with three ways don't know how to set them up properly, and they end up sounding like butt...

does this help??

lol
 
Steve Lynch said:
As for sending vocals to one speaker, you cannot do that, because it's part of the mix...
Click to expand...

Well really it depends on your setup and mixer, I done this many times. Most of the time I do this in a couple of venues I work at often, where there is a separate room where dinner is and all the guess will be sitting. I run a speaker in there that is only on the microphone channel for speeches and announcements. I don't run music in the room since the music can be heard a little anyway, and it gives the guests a place to go without the music to sit and talk, but they will not miss any announcements.

In my case I use a separate microphone mixer that has two outputs, one to the remote powered speaker, and one to the mic input on the main mixer. Other non DJ mixers can do this too.
 
jclaydon said:
Ok your talking to someone who doesn't have a CLUE about this stuff but i was wondering if there was a way to use a power amp to power two main speakers for music and then use a third speaker/amp to send the vocals to exclusively.

Might actually be more expensive long term than buying three way speakers, but at least I'd be able to break up the cost a little at a time.


If it is possible, would it be equivalent or not as good a solution?

thanks

-James
Click to expand...

Short answer to your question above is yes. You will need an electronic crossover or as suggested in the above post from a microphone channel.
http://www.rocketroberts.com/techart/multi_amp.htm
Going to a three way (or 4 way) active system is the ultimate way to get sound out of a system. You will have to use a 3 way electronic crossover system with three sets of speakers and three amps. The bass speakers should be woofers, the midrange speakers will produce your mids and the tweeters will produce your highs. You will have so much more control over the three ranges. Those components have to be carefully chosen. There are manufacturers that make speakers that can be Bi amped (Highs and lows which require a two way electronic crossover and two amps) and also tri amped (Highs, mids and lows which require a three way electronic crossover and three amps) all in one cabinet.
You can also have separate cabinets 3 per side, one cabinet for each frequency speakers, low, mid and hi. Most jocks do not have those type of systems because it borders on live sound but if you can afford it, you won't regret it. Check with Ben our sponsor on this board and he can help you to design a master system where you can add as you go until you have all that you want. http://www.nlfxpro.com/cart/home.php

More on Bi amping and tri amping
http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm
 
Well I wasn't sure if it would work or not but what i was thinking of doing is using a 3-way crossover, send the low frequencies to a bass cabinet, send the mid range frequencies to a separate full range speaker and then have an additional two speakers for the mid & high range. *ie music*

The thing i was worried most about was already mentioned, since i don't know exactly what I'm doing, I might just make it worse.. *lol*

-James
 
jclaydon said:
Well I wasn't sure if it would work or not but what i was thinking of doing is using a 3-way crossover, send the low frequencies to a bass cabinet, send the mid range frequencies to a separate full range speaker and then have an additional two speakers for the mid & high range. *ie music*

The thing i was worried most about was already mentioned, since i don't know exactly what I'm doing, I might just make it worse.. *lol*

-James
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Are you referring to an active electronic crossover or passive network? Music per se is in all the spectrum. There are some cabinets that already have three way passive crossovers in them which can be used with one amp.
As you admitted, I would seek more professional assistance if I were you and then learn to use what you buy.
 
More drivers = more money / K.I.S.S.* keeps costs down

This is one of those questions where there are multiple correct answers most of which get very involved. Your fundamental requirement is reduced initial cost. The more complex solutions will be, surprise, more expensive. If you were really good at speaker design you could build separate boxes for each driver. In the beginning you'd use a two drivers and later make it into a three-way and finally a four way by adding a sub. The problem is you and your audience want the the entire frequency range to be covered from day one and since you're asking the question you don't have the design skills.


The only practical way to cut costs in the manner you imply (but with a twist) is to buy full range boxes (tops) and add subs later. A good three way speaker design is significantly more difficult to design and build than a two way. It needs to be considered from the ground up. Two ways are generally less expensive (and far more common).


Some of the nomenclature gets a little confused. When people say two way or three way they generally mean a two-way top or three-way tops. These tops are “full” spectrum speakers that cover the lion's share of the audio spectrum from about 70 Hz up to 17-20kHz. In many cases, they sound fine by themselves. The lowest octaves are covered by the addition of a sub-woofer. A two-way top with a sub added may be referred to as a three-way system but the top (full range speaker) may be a two way.


What the other fellahs were talking about is also correct and just a portion of what you'll need to know in order to make it work (well). One of the best investments you can make is in knowledge. Consider purchasing the Sound Reinforcement Handbook by Yahama for about $35.00.


In the course of composing this answer I see you've gone on to talking about crossovers. You'll soil yourself when you see how much high quality high power inductors cost. Off the shelf passive crossovers are rarely an acceptable solution - I hear a cash register ringing up more money. More drivers = more money. Good luck.

* Keep It Simple Stupid
 
Looks like i really opened a can of worms for myself! :sqeek:

Ah well, according to the specs, i was thinking of using an active crossover like this one http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/cx3400.aspx


only maybe slightly better quality.

See the thing about me is i don't mind if something i want is going to end up costing me more in the end as long as i can find a way to do it where I can break up the cost over time.

Ideally if I could find a store that would offer me credit, that would solve all my problems as I would just get the speakers I want, and pay as I go but Ii don't know of any stores that offer such terms in Canada. *shrug*

The system i have is perfectly adequate, I just happened to listen to a pair of three way speakers and the difference was infinately better. If i have to, i'll just save money until I can afford to buy them.

I was just wondering if there was a way i could do it where i could buy everything i need piece by piece *more expensive but quicker result*

am i making any sense?

Of course i suppose the other alternative would be to buy a speaker kit and pay/find someone to build it for me.. heheh

Any takers? :sqwink:
 
jclaydon said:
Looks like i really opened a can of worms for myself! :sqeek:

Ah well, according to the specs, i was thinking of using an active crossover like this one http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/cx3400.aspx


only maybe slightly better quality.

See the thing about me is i don't mind if something i want is going to end up costing me more in the end as long as i can find a way to do it where I can break up the cost over time.

Ideally if I could find a store that would offer me credit, that would solve all my problems as I would just get the speakers I want, and pay as I go but Ii don't know of any stores that offer such terms in Canada. *shrug*

The system i have is perfectly adequate, I just happened to listen to a pair of three way speakers and the difference was infinately better. If i have to, i'll just save money until I can afford to buy them.

I was just wondering if there was a way i could do it where i could buy everything i need piece by piece *more expensive but quicker result*

am i making any sense?

Of course i suppose the other alternative would be to buy a speaker kit and pay/find someone to build it for me.. heheh

Any takers? :sqwink:
Click to expand...

Here is what I would do if I were in your shoes. The Behringer Crossover is a good start for a crossover,
I would buy the Following:
Two existing 15" or 18" Sub woofers in enclosures/cabinets
Two amps that will drive those Subs as your Low ends.

2 Midrange Horns & build two cabinets to enclose them. Horns don't really require specifics for the enclosures.
2 Amps to drive them

2 Tweeter Horns & build two cabinets to enclose them. Horns don't require specifics for the enclosures.
2 Amps to drive them

You can build one enclosure to house both the midrange as well as the tweeter horns.

Add a 31 band stereo EQ and you are good to go!

Please note that midrange and tweeter horns tend to have a "bright" sound and can get blaring to the ears. Paper cones are better but then you will have to get the cabinet(s) designed for the acoustics.
 
The best way to build a sound system for mobile use is to plan it ahead of time. If you already own a pair of mid-top cabinets, ie two-ways, all you need to add is a sub cabinet for bass warmth. If your mixer has a summed sub line output, feed the sub amp with it.

If you're not concerned with stereo separation, a single 2-channel power amp will do. Feed your mid-tops with one side of the amp and your bass bin with the other side.

This scenario is not true bi-amping. You will need an active crossover to achieve that. As time and finances allow, add to the system until you've got it set up the way you want it. :)
 
To super simplify: If you are doing karaoke, just wait until you can afford 3- ways. Subs are NOT a big help for the mid-range vocals ( and can actually overpower and "blur" them) and if you are not well versed in speaker design, you will probably end up shooting yourself in the foot doing anything else, sound-wise.
 
I hope I am not too late...

jclaydon said:
Thanks to everyone for the advice. I have decided to save up the money needed for decent 3-way speakers. However, as a short term solution, I have bought these to supplement the current sound system I have.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=250412033734


I just hope the amplifier I have is sufficient to power them i wonder where the power rating would be written.. *pondering*

-James
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Don't do it.

I find the claims about these cabinets difficult to believe. If these things can handle bass-heavy 500 WRMS on a continuous basis I'll eat my hat. :rolleyes:

These are entry-level boxes... like Pyle and Pyramid. Please, don't waste your money on this stuff.

You'd be better off with a pair of Carvin's LS1503 cabinets. They're loaded with Eminence and B&C drivers.
 

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Fred Wright said:
Don't do it.

I find the claims about these cabinets difficult to believe. If these things can handle bass-heavy 500 WRMS on a continuous basis I'll eat my hat. :rolleyes:

These are entry-level boxes... like Pyle and Pyramid. Please, don't waste your money on this stuff.

You'd be better off with a pair of Carvin's LS1503 cabinets. They're loaded with Eminence and B&C drivers.
Click to expand...

Fred is correct. Those in Houston are about $100.00 per pair.
 
Thanks for the warning, but unfortuantely I have already bought them.

However, on the bright side I talked to the seller and since I paid thru paypal, i can return them within 30 days if I'm not completely happy with them.

No harm in giving them a listen. I'm not expecting any great things for the price I paid, just a slight improvement/

I can afford to eat the $80 shipping and handling if I'm not happy.

-James
 
jclaydon said:
Thanks for the warning, but unfortuantely I have already bought them.

However, on the bright side I talked to the seller and since I paid thru paypal, i can return them within 30 days if I'm not completely happy with them.

No harm in giving them a listen. I'm not expecting any great things for the price I paid, just a slight improvement/

I can afford to eat the $80 shipping and handling if I'm not happy.

-James
Click to expand...

James you have been a bad boy! We'll have to send you to Kat's room. You really don't want to rile her!
 
Kat?? And how exactly is that supposed to be a punishment!? :sqlaugh:


Err anyway it's my own fault, I could have checked here before I bought them.

I was just excited to find something i could afford right away.. *shrug*

I supposed it could have been a lot worse tho.
 
jclaydon said:
Kat?? And how exactly is that supposed to be a punishment!? :sqlaugh:


Err anyway it's my own fault, I could have checked here before I bought them.

I was just excited to find something i could afford right away.. *shrug*

I supposed it could have been a lot worse tho.
Click to expand...

She'll find a way to administer punishment. I bet when she is finished you won't do it again!
 
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