Open letter to Jokerswild, et al

[So Cal Hugh]

I am the one who sent the PM to Jokerswild about his karaoke library. I want to respond to his post.

First of all, I never wanted to do anything unethical. I paid to be a part of a community for karaoke on line, and was under the belief that it was legit. After seeing the post that you put up with my PM I was concerned about the legitimacy of the community I was involved in. I googled the gentleman Chris Conofi you mentioned in your post. He told why it was not legal and what is being done about these groups. We had a brief but good conversation. I expressed to him that I was unaware that what I was doing was not legit, and asked him what he wanted me to do now to fix things. He told me to send him the information on the group I was dealing with, and he would "Call it even." I have sent this information already.

He and I started to discuss what he wanted me to do with the files I have now, and we never finished that part of the discussion.

So, I ask you, how can I fix this in a way that satisfies you? I don't want to be involved in anything not legit. That's just not how I do things.

If I just delete the files (which I am willing to do) will you say that I did what I had to do, or do you need more? I have put this same question to Mr. Conofi.

So, if I offended you or others, I apologize. That was never my intention. If I were trying to get away with doing the wrong thing, I assure you that sending you or anyone a PM about it is not what I would do. I was so open about it because I thought that the purchase of the product made my involvement in the IRC group legit. Chris told me how this is not true, so now I go about the fix.

Even though I would have gone about it in a different way, I thank you for correcting my misunderstanding about this. I will not go back there, and will work with Chris Conofi, you, the Mods on this board, or any other interested party to make things right.

Just in case you or anyone else might wonder, I am not a KJ. I own about 25 CDGs that I use at an annual girls softball league party. I play them on an old school karaoke player and show it on a Walmart TV. I have never used the files I received from the internet for any job at any time, whatsoever.

Thank you. I look forward to your reply.

 

[jokerswild]

Actually I didn't even know about the PM you had made to Toqer until he posted about it in the topic I started about IRC file sharing.

I do appreciate your open apology, however.

The only way I see to fix the situation especially if you plan to continue public performance of these tracks is:

A. Purchase the tracks via normal channels either digitally via www.tricerasoft.com or traditionally via disc from a place such as www.acekaraoke.com then your library would be legit.

B. Delete the offending tracks that you neither have a disc for or a legit reciept for a digital download from the afore mentioned site.

If you go the route of A. Start by making a list of the tracks you'll need to purchase then delete them from your hard drive.... then you can go and start buying those tracks.... Tricerasoft has gift certificates that you can buy if you get the $100.00 you can get 100 tracks from them so basically .99/track even on their Zoom products... this is completely legal and a good way to build your library without purchasing a disc with 1 track you want and 14 others you don't.

 

[So Cal Hugh]

Thanks. I have never used them in any performance. I very rarely do Karaoke. I don't mind just deleting them, but want to make sure that the perception is that I have done all that I can do.

I have Tricerasoft Just Karaoke 1.0 and love it, so their way of getting them is probably my preferred one.

Thanks. This whole thing is fixable, but has been very upsetting to me. I didn't sleep a lot last night.

 

[jokerswild]

See the thing you have to understand is karaoke piracy, well piracy in general, is killing our industry even if it's coming from the casual home user.

You mentioned that you do a show for a girls softball party this in of itself even though you are not being paid and especially if you are constitutes public performance and there for takes you out of the realm of the casual home user.

This is what gets the hackles up on many legit KJ's and especial of those of us who have spent many, many, many hours converting our CDG's to digital files... BTW, there are many schools of thought that regard even the conversion of your discs to a file format for digital playback to be a copyright infringement and therefor illegal as well.... it's a fine line we ride by keeping a strict 1 to 1 ratio of disc to file.

The bottom line here is piracy is piracy whether you are performing publicly for profit or just at home entertaining a few friends. The theft of music hurts an already damaged industry and makes it more and more difficult for the companies to stay afloat and producing the tracks we all want for our libraries... even Sound Choice is taking a huge hit... they have really slowed in the production of new music releases... and our singers have noticed.

Continue working with Conti and others and you'll be on the right path to correcting your current situation and you'll feel better about yourself in the long run.

 

[So Cal Hugh]

I do understand about piracy, and I share your frustration with it. I remember when I initially ripped my cds into my hard drive when I switched over to PCDJ. It was a monumental task, and inconvenent.

The use of the files is not the issue for me, but in doing what is right. I am convinced that doing the right thing is important regardless. I thought that I was. That is why your reponse was surprising to me.

So, will you be satisfied with my just deleting the files, or do you want me to go another mile somehow?

 

[So Cal Hugh]

Tricerasoft has gift certificates that you can buy if you get the $100.00 you can get 100 tracks from them so basically .99/track even on their Zoom products... this is completely legal and a good way to build your library without purchasing a disc with 1 track you want and 14 others you don't.

Actually, Chris Conofi told me that in order to be legal you need to have a hard copy of the disc you are playing, even if it is a digital format you are using at the time. He stressed that the hard copy must be present with you
when you play it.

The whole thing is frustrating. I don't know how we are expected to be on the up and up at all times if there are so many different things being said. Thanks for your resonse.

 

[jokerswild]

I do understand about piracy, and I share your frustration with it. I remember when I initially ripped my cds into my hard drive when I switched over to PCDJ. It was a monumental task, and inconvenent.

The use of the files is not the issue for me, but in doing what is right. I am convinced that doing the right thing is important regardless. I thought that I was. That is why your reponse was surprising to me.

So, will you be satisfied with my just deleting the files, or do you want me to go another mile somehow?

Deleting the files would go a long way albeit hard to prove... I think the best practice would be to replace with legit purchases. I'm not asking for you to give a blow by blow on your progress but simply bowing out of the so-called download clubs such as you've used is a good step in the right direction.

Understand that I was not the one you sent the PM to and that I only found out about it via the topic I had started about IRC file sharing ethics... Toqer is the one that you sent the PM request to. He has an even stronger stance to karaoke piracy then even I do, plus he now has an even larger stake in this topic now that he is about to become a club owner himself. For him the issue and all that implies has basically multiplied 100 times over, not only is he a competing KJ but soon to be a competing club owner to boot.

 

[So Cal Hugh]

Deleting the files would go a long way albeit hard to prove... I think the best practice would be to replace with legit purchases. I'm not asking for you to give a blow by blow on your progress but simply bowing out of the so-called download clubs such as you've used is a good step in the right direction.

Understand that I was not the one you sent the PM to and that I only found out about it via the topic I had started about IRC file sharing ethics... Toqer is the one that you sent the PM request to. He has an even stronger stance to karaoke piracy then even I do, plus he now has an even larger stake in this topic now that he is about to become a club owner himself. For him the issue and all that implies has basically multiplied 100 times over, not only is he a competing KJ but soon to be a competing club owner to boot.

Gotcha.

I can't afford the replacement of those songs right now. I know it can't be proved that I deleted them, that is why I am asking for more imput on it.

I have quit the group. I will not return. It makes me too mad.

I wish Toqer all the best. I see that he was the poster. Sorry for the mixup.

 

[toqer]

Thanks for working with MMOgroup Hugh. I think as long as you just delete everything that you don't own, and continue to work with us, that should be good enough.

That site you paid for access, do you have the paypal address you sent your money to? Problem is the site is in the netherlands, which is outside the reach of the DMCA. My *guess* is that it's an american behind it (american paypal account). If that's the case, I can call up my friend Tal at paypal and have it shutdown in a hurry.

(plz post the email here, so what if a spambot picks up on it)

 

[JoeChartreuse]

The only way I see to fix the situation especially if you plan to continue public performance of these tracks is:

A. Purchase the tracks via normal channels either digitally via www.tricerasoft.com or traditionally via disc from a place such as www.acekaraoke.com then your library would be legit.

B. Delete the offending tracks that you neither have a disc for or a legit reciept for a digital download from the afore mentioned site.
.

I recently posted something on just this subject. Hugh thought he was working within legitimate parameters and found out that wasn't the case. OK.

Though it may well be that Tricerasoft and Ace Karaoke have only licensed tracks, but even there one can't be sure. The only way to KNOW is if they sent a printed copy of the license for each and every track that's downloaded- not gonna happen. Before anyone gets their hackles up, let me state that this happens with CD+Gs as well. I have several Sound Choice discs bought in good faith from that reputable company that were pulled from the market because the tracks were not properly licensed. The point is, one has to take the company's word for it. Almost NONE of SGBs tracks were properly licensed. Anyone who bought a KJ Tools or Dangerous set new in the last few years probably has a counterfeit set, no matter how reputable the source was.

Since I have not received nor seen any printed recalls for these songs (Sound Choice), they stay in my book because the responsibility rests with the company. I have the receipts and the original discs with copywrite info on the labels.

I'm not aware of all the facts in your case, but Joker pretty much has it right as far as option 2. If you have receipts, then no one can claim an attempt to defraud. If you don't, erase 'em and start over, with the caveat above in mind.

 

[So Cal Hugh]

Toqer,

If you're happy with delete than I am. Again, thanks. This situation really pisses me off. I hate being mislead.

I stand with you in the piracy thing. I honestly felt I wasn't.

No hard feelings?

 

[toqer]

No hard feeling hugh, it sounds like you want to do the right thing.

Joe:

The difference between this and Manu's not properly licensing tracks is night and day. There are sites out there that advertise "LEARN HOW TO GET KARAOKE FOR FREE! JUST PAY US $50"

They don't mention what they're teaching you to do is pirate karaoke. So basically Hugh got dupped into thinking this site was legit, paid $50 for the info on how to pirate the karaoke.

Just FYI, MMOGroup is now using me as a technical consultant on this. Problem is one of the sites is in the netherlands, well out of US law reach. The other problem is these sites don't actually host content, they just provide information on how to gain content illegally.

It's like if I wrote a book on how to rob a bank. I didn't actually rob a bank, I just provided info on how to do it.

One of these sites, i'd have to double check it though advertises thier custom IRC client for downloading karaoke, so they *might* be able to get busted on that.

Either way, feds are involved at this point, maybe we can start seeing these places shut down.

 

[So Cal Hugh]

No hard feeling hugh, it sounds like you want to do the right thing.

That is appreciated. I really do want to do the right thing. If my experience will help your efforts in anyway count me in

So basically Hugh got dupped into thinking this site was legit, paid $50 for the info on how to pirate the karaoke.
That is in fact what happened. I'm a bit embarassed that I didn't see it, but it's true nontheless.

If you don't mind then, I will delete them later today.

 

[So Cal Hugh]

All files deleted.

 

[So Cal Hugh]

Toqer,

pm your email address to me, and I will send you the paypal receipt.

 

[Guest]

Well that was a cool exchange. Another reason why this is the best damn board on the net.

 

[Jeff Romard]

Being the devils advocate.....

BTW, there are many schools of thought that regard even the conversion of your discs to a file format for digital playback to be a copyright infringement and therefor illegal as well.... it's a fine line we ride by keeping a strict 1 to 1 ratio of disc to file.

The bottom line here is piracy is piracy whether you are performing publicly for profit or just at home entertaining a few friends.

I've always loved this one....It's ok to pirate as long as you follow the rules that may or may not be there...

If you lose the original do you throw away the backup copy and start from scratch? Legally you should because you aren't the owner of the original anymore

If the RIAA, the manufactures, the artists, et al would spend less time telling honest people what they can do with legitamate copies of product mabye they would have a little spare time to look at the real problem of piracy.

When I buy a car General Motors dosen't proclaim to tell me what I can do with it. When I buy a newspaper I can pass it to a dozen friends with no reprisal but if I buy a CD I can't make a copy for me and be within the law? That's Bull****.

I certinaly don't advocate piracy but I also don't like being told what I can and can't do with something I own

I will freely tell you this. If a friend needed a song that wasn't easily accessable and I had it I would gladly pass it along. If I was in the same situation I would gladly recieve. Call me a pirate, call me what you want, I don't care

I'll just sit here now and wait for some self righteous dogooder to come and arrest me

 

[toqer]

I've always loved this one....It's ok to pirate as long as you follow the rules that may or may not be there...

If you lose the original do you throw away the backup copy and start from scratch? Legally you should because you aren't the owner of the original anymore

MMOgroup isn't publically clear, but in private i've been told they have no problems with digital KJ's as long as they maintain 1:1 and don't multirig. They're very clear, you need the original CDG, not the reciept, not the jewel case, etc. You want more proof? I ran thier booth at this years NAMM with autokdj, and next year i'll be doing it again.

I audit myself monthly to make sure I haven't lost any CD's or had them stolen. Missing CDG's are deleted off our hard drives as soon as we find them missing. We had one regular singer stealing CDG's for a while.

When it goes missing, sure, it's painful to delete them, but you gotta do what's right.

Right now we're an industry in crisis, and while you might causually say "I'll share with my friends, i'm not hurting anybody" multiply your attitude by tens of thousands and it paints a pretty grim picture.

I have another report i'm releasing soon that will track the rise of karaoke venues over the last 6 years. Why is there more karaoke venues, but less karaoke being sold?

 

[Jon Tuck]

Hugh Im in Oregon now but quickly stopped in. I thank you for being diligent in doing the right thing. Im going to show a vote of confidence for you as I believe you. If youve said you deleted the files that is good enough for me. Nothing more is required. The real deal though is if you are satisfied with how you have remedied the situation nothing much more matters. Thanks for being a part of ODJT. I suspect all involved can move forward without any ill intent or thought.

 

[So Cal Hugh]

Hugh Im in Oregon now but quickly stopped in. I thank you for being diligent in doing the right thing. Im going to show a vote of confidence for you as I believe you. If youve said you deleted the files that is good enough for me. Nothing more is required. The real deal though is if you are satisfied with how you have remedied the situation nothing much more matters. Thanks for being a part of ODJT. I suspect all involved can move forward without any ill intent or thought.

Thanks for your vote of confidence. I wish I knew how to show what was done better. I hate the fact that I was involved. I am bothered by the piracy issue as well, but not as actively as Toqer. I just hope that the honest desire I have to do things right has been understood. Can't be perfect, but try to do things right. That's all.

How's your family? You're in my prayers.