You have got to be kidding!

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Scott Hanna said:
But, bait and switch and a scam? not even close. Some how, Bob took from it that I am somehow campaigning for this "new product" as he calls it.
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I don't see it as bait and switch either (can't believe I'm defending my competition).

At some point, you will get the upgrade -- just not now, as Steve mentioned.

I see it as you are buying into the company a bit, and funding development costs. All things considered, it's far better than buying hardware -- the hardware companies don't give upgrades when they build a "new and improved model". If you buy a Denon controller today, are they going to give you the next controller they come out with 2 years from now for free? I'm not singling out Denon, they all do the same sh_t.

Software developers at least give you an upgrade path, some paid, some not. But you don't need to buy a whole new product because they slapped a new name on it, and added a knob.
 
Jon Tuck said:
In Rockit you get the knob regardless and his name is Rick.........:tritongue:
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Can't say I would totally disagree -- how many are posting at 4:30am...?

T-storm woke me up around 11, and I wanted to see the walking catfish -- but the light pole went out, so I couldn't see them -- now I can't go back to sleep -- talk about a knob... xf:D
 
steve149 said:
Bob - If the above is the actual email sent and looking over the website, I still don't see how one could call this bait-and-switch. It's a hail mary pass maybe, but all they are doing is hyping a next rev of the product hoping people will hang on with them as long as possible. Bait-and-switch requires the sale of one product and the substitution of another more expensive or higher-margined product .. clearly this is not.

You could certainly call it desperation or pleading, but it does not lend itself to the level of scamming. It is pretty clear, again going by the website and above email, that you are buying today's product at a discount and will get the next revision when it is available. Software companies do this all the time to keep people buying instead of holding off until the forthcoming release or worse, going to a competitor.
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I think you are missing the obvious, and neglecting how relevant timely delivery is in the software world. They are telling you right up front they have no such upgrade ready to deliver, and have no date upon which they ever will, and yet you are fool enough to call them anything less than a scam?

I like many others purchased a license 9 years ago with the same promise of an imminent "upgrade." 9 years later the program is obsolete - and no such upgrade ever materialized. Now they send me a solicitation to buy more licenses and hype an upgrade that also has not materialized? Same dog and pony show all over again and guess what? - some of you are determined to prove that there is in fact one born every minute?

What is that quote about: "those who forget history...? I think DJs are well advised to steer clear of Ots Labs. To compare Ots Labs to other software companies that actually make good on their upgrades is to ignore the obvious lack of integrity displayed by Ots.
 
and Bob yet again you dont confirm or legitimize your bait and switch claim. You made this statement above which has me even more confused with your point. "They are telling you right up front they have no such upgrade ready to deliver, and have no date upon which they ever will, and yet you are fool enough to call them anything less than a scam"? Within that leading statement you are agreeing that they in fact arent scamming and totally up front to their lack of detail in telling you and anyone else they have no date nor even certainty of releasing anything. Merely stating you get an upgrade if it is ever put on the market. Seems pretty black and white to me.
 
Jon Tuck said:
and Bob yet again you dont confirm or legitimize your bait and switch claim. You made this statement above which has me even more confused with your point. "They are telling you right up front they have no such upgrade ready to deliver, and have no date upon which they ever will, and yet you are fool enough to call them anything less than a scam"? Within that leading statement you are agreeing that they in fact arent scamming and totally up front to their lack of detail in telling you and anyone else they have no date nor even certainty of releasing anything. Merely stating you get an upgrade if it is ever put on the market. Seems pretty black and white to me.
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EXXXAACCTTLLYY. As people have tried to point out over and over......nothing wrong with not liking the deal, nothing wrong with being ticked at Ots for their history of slow upgrades, simply that "bait and switch" and "scam" was incorrect. But someone kept digging their heels in deeper and arguing against points that no one else was even making.

Putting the OP's deal aside, even buying a working software 9 years ago for probably less than $100, and getting FREE upgrades throughout those 9 years...however SLOWLY...on a WORKING product....whether you like the product or not....can hardly be called a scam. Nothing wrong with saying that you didn't like the purchase...but to rant that someone has been trying to scam you for 9 years by not giving you ENOUGH upgrades?

It's also a complete misrepresentation to say that there was NO UPGRADES in 9 years. I've had the software longer than that. I've received upgrades along the way. Not as fast as I would like....but I've been getting them. I believe what Bob is referring to is that the agreement was "Free upgrades to 2.0". Over the last decade, all updates have been called 1.2, 1.5, 1.84, etc. As I tried to reason with bob a few years ago when he was ranting about being scammed, if they were REALLY out to scam people, why not just QUICKLY upgrade to 2.0 so they didn't have to give anyone free upgrades. Yet they continued to add features over they years...just simply not calling the upgrade 2.0 yet. Maybe some Bob didn't like or didn't want. So, even though upgrades have been coming, he turned around the original offer of "Free until 2.0" and thinks he got scammed because he has not gotten 2.0 yet. Everyone else I know thought the exact opposite...that at least they've been cool about making all of the upgrades free over the years.

To date, he is the only OTS license holder I've heard say they believe is a scam. Most reasonable people would say, "hmmm, no one else thinks this way..maybe I should at least re-think it to see if I'm looking at this wrong". Not Bob. He easily accepts that everyone is wrong and only he he right.
 
Jon Tuck said:
and Bob yet again you dont confirm or legitimize your bait and switch claim. You made this statement above which has me even more confused with your point. "They are telling you right up front they have no such upgrade ready to deliver, and have no date upon which they ever will, and yet you are fool enough to call them anything less than a scam"? Within that leading statement you are agreeing that they in fact arent scamming and totally up front to their lack of detail in telling you and anyone else they have no date nor even certainty of releasing anything. Merely stating you get an upgrade if it is ever put on the market. Seems pretty black and white to me.
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Jon, disclosing it's a scam doesn't make it any less of a scam.

I received an ADVERTISEMENT promoting "Esperance" and prescribing a purchase which in fact does not result in any guaranteed delivery of the enticement being promoted. That is bait and switch - and no amount of disclosure changes the fundamental approach being used by this company. I repeat: Buyer Beware - Ots has a known history and once again clearly demonstrates a fundamental lack of integrity.

No different than me promoting my best or a fictitious DJ - then asking you to buy a contract that clearly relieves me of any responsibility to provide you with said entertainer. It's unethical and just plain wrong!

It's Interesting how low the standards many of you are willing to tolerate.
 
Proformance said:
It's Interesting how low the standards many of you are willing to tolerate.
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Bob,
You should know by now...for many it is a Comfort Zone thing, Don't Rock The Boat thing, Afraid to Venture in the unknown thing, Adequate enough thing. LOL ;)
 
Proformance said:
Jon, disclosing it's a scam doesn't make it any less of a scam.

I received an ADVERTISEMENT promoting "Esperance" and prescribing a purchase which in fact does not result in any guaranteed delivery of the enticement being promoted. That is bait and switch - and no amount of disclosure changes the fundamental approach being used by this company. I repeat: Buyer Beware - Ots has a known history and once again clearly demonstrates a fundamental lack of integrity.

No different than me promoting my best or a fictitious DJ - then asking you to buy a contract that clearly relieves me of any responsibility to provide you with said entertainer. It's unethical and just plain wrong!

It's Interesting how low the standards many of you are willing to tolerate.
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Again .. I wouldn't do business with them .. but it would be libelous to call what they did or are doing a "scam" .. disingenuous maybe, but the language is pretty clear.
 
Proformance said:
No different than me promoting my best or a fictitious DJ - then asking you to buy a contract that clearly relieves me of any responsibility to provide you with said entertainer. It's unethical and just plain wrong!

It's Interesting how low the standards many of you are willing to tolerate.
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No different?

In fact, it couldn't be more different. In your scenario above, you are not clearly saying what the person is getting. They have made it pretty clear that "esperence" is an upgrade that is coming and they were offering their current product at 40% off. It is amazing how you keep overlooking that.

It's very interesting how someone can take an offer they they don't like and twist it into some "scam" that simply is NOT THERE.

I think it's very unethical and wrong to take some feud one has with a company and apply that bias to something else, and not use sound reasoning, and make false accusations. It shows that bitterness and anger rules one's thinking, and not looking at things arbitrarily.
 
Scott Hanna said:
No different?

In fact, it couldn't be more different. In your scenario above, you are not clearly saying what the person is getting. They have made it pretty clear that "esperence" is an upgrade that is coming and they were offering their current product at 40% off. It is amazing how you keep overlooking that.

It's very interesting how someone can take an offer they they don't like and twist it into some "scam" that simply is NOT THERE.

I think it's very unethical and wrong to take some feud one has with a company and apply that bias to something else, and not use sound reasoning, and make false accusations. It shows that bitterness and anger rules one's thinking, and not looking at things arbitrarily.
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Then why mention Esperance at all - since it's not even ready? Why LEAD with it? Why HYPE it? Why SELL IT as part of the purchase? Because it's BAIT... Duh!

Scott, you're lengthy rationales and litany of excuses is anything but "obvious."
 
steve149 said:
Again .. I wouldn't do business with them .. but it would be libelous to call what they did or are doing a "scam" .. disingenuous maybe, but the language is pretty clear.
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Far from libelous - the ad conforms quite well to the FTC legal definition, and if they were a U.S. company they would likely already have been sued (class action) for their previous version 2.0 scam. The information has to be untrue to be libelous.
 
Proformance said:
Far from libelous - the ad conforms quite well to the FTC legal definition, and if they were a U.S. company they would likely already have been sued (class action) for their previous version 2.0 scam. The information has to be untrue to be libelous.
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It doesn't, as it is plain YOU ARE NOT BUYING ESPERANCE directly, you are buying the current version with a free upgrade.

Here's what's on the web:

201109-esperanceprepromo-700x190.jpg

You are buying OtsAV 1.85 and and upgrade to Esperance for free .. I don't see how any intelligent buyer would perceive that as a scam or bait-n-switch, so to call it that IS or CAN BE libelous. I do not have it, so did not get the email, so it may have different wording, but the website is pretty clear.
 
steve149 said:
..it is plain YOU ARE NOT BUYING ESPERANCE
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LOL. Steve ... What is the incentive? What is the hook? What is the bait? What word will it take for you to get a clue?

I'm just sayin' ..only a fool would buy a ticket to a train with no wheels.
 
Proformance said:
LOL. Steve ... What is the incentive? What is the hook? What is the bait? What word will it take for you to get a clue?

I'm just sayin' ..only a fool would buy a ticket to a train with no wheels.
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AND I AGREE .. I would never touch it (I believe I said that several times).

What I didn't agree with was your previous assertion that it was a scam or bait-n-switch .. that's all.

Don't read anything else in .. the deal sucks given the development schedule .. just don't label it what it wasn't.
 
steve149 said:
AND I AGREE .. I would never touch it (I believe I said that several times).

What I didn't agree with was your previous assertion that it was a scam or bait-n-switch .. that's all.

Don't read anything else in .. the deal sucks given the development schedule .. just don't label it what it wasn't.
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You can't separate them like that. The ad alone fits the profile and the development schedule/history provides the contextual proof.
 
Proformance said:
You can't separate them like that. The ad alone fits the profile and the development schedule/history provides the contextual proof.
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Bob, I have some background in software marketing (I was a marketing rep for Hewlett Packard for several years). Without the benefit of the email you mention, I would love to hear what you believe rises to that level in the ad above (which is the one plastered on their website). When someone is TOLD what they will get and gets what they're told, it's not a scam or B-N-S. If you can show otherwise please do.
 
Proformance said:
Because it's BAIT... Duh!
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Hey, there's an intelligent argument!



So any enticement can now be considered bait, and then bait and switch?

Pure genius, Bob!!
 
Proformance said:
You can't separate them like that. The ad alone fits the profile and the development schedule/history provides the contextual proof.
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Sure, we can. Your arguments that it's bait and switch and a scam are just plain silly...it's as simple as that.

When someone replies with logic.....it's seems like it's too many words for you to understand, so you skip over it:)


Scott, you're lengthy rationales and litany of excuses is anything but "obvious."
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I'm trying to keep these to under 3 sentences so you can keep up.:)
 
Scott, you're lengthy rationales and litany of excuses is anything but "obvious."
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How's this for obvious:

Bob said this:
No where in that email is there a promotion of OtsAV - it is all about Esperance.
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But in his OWN original post, he quoted this:

all new OtsAV license sales / additional licenses are available for a whopping 40% OFF.
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When we pointed that out, he ignores it and keeps arguing.

Obvious?
 
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