Array systems

rickryan.com said:

As many of you know, I have a pair of Harbinger MLS1000. It's a great speaker system (especially for the price). 4 channel mixer with Bluetooth, no mixer app. Seems to have plenty of juice for everything I've thrown at it. Was just looking at specs at it shows max db is 123 and 1000watts peak and I'm guessing 500watts RMS. Have been noticing some RCF units and wondering if any of you guys are using these type systems and what your thoughts are:

RCF Evox12 - 15" sub, 1400/700 watts, 130db max, 7 channels, mixer app - $2900
RCF Evox Jmix8 - 12" sub, 1400/700 watts, 128db max, 7 channels, mixer app - $1700
JBL PRXOne - 12" sub, 2000/1000 watts, 130db max, 7 channels, no mixer app - $1550
Bose L1 Pro16 - 10"X18" sub (oval), 1250watts, 124 max, 3 channels, mixer app - $1900
Harbinger MLS1000 - 12" sub, 1000/500watts, 123 max, 4 channels, no mixer app - $700

Not that I need to spend money right now (cough, cough), but if/when I decide to upgrade again, that Evox12 looks like a real beast.

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Those are all mid level output options. I have the evox12 and wouldn’t use it for anything more than 125-150 ppl in a small to midsize room… but others may have a different opinion.

rickryan.com said:

So, what are you using?

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Rcf nxl4 and 8004's have been my main system since 2018 and can't find a single system that's worth replacing them with. You are normally looking at a $2700 per top and $3500 per sub ($12.5k total plus covers/wheels/etc)... but you can def get em for closer to 10k.

If you are happy with what you just buy 1 more so you have a spare when one fails its bound to happen at the most inconvenient time

I've been using the Evox-12s since 2018 I think.

I think they sound nice and clean. The low end is really nice for a wedding, but isn't boomy or obnoxious. And similar to Taso, I think it has an upper end range of about 150 guests... you could push to 200 if you had to, but I think it's a bit over extended depending on the size of the room that you're in.

I don't love that you can't control the sub from the top independently. I think it looks a tad clunky versus how slick the EV column arrays look (note: I would not trade a fixed position array for my Evox even though they look better).

I find them to be a particularly poor solution when you have a lapel mic somewhere in your chain. I've worked very hard to eq out the touchy frequencies. I've made sure my speakers are positioned physically in front of the person speaking. I've added the dbx AFS2 into my system to work on it. I've worked on the gain structuring on my mics... these speakers are vicious feedback machines for me in any situation with a lapel. I don't have any problems at all with my handhelds, but I will not use them for a ceremony. I'll literally bring another speaker for ceremony even if it's in the same room as the reception.

It's been a very good speaker for my primary use over the past 5 years.

Albatross said:

I find them to be a particularly poor solution when you have a lapel mic somewhere in your chain. . . .these speakers are vicious feedback machines for me in any situation with a lapel. I don't have any problems at all with my handhelds, but I will not use them for a ceremony.

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It sounds like your lapel mics are omnidirectional.

Omni mics are commonly used by videographers but are the wrong choice for use with a live PA. Almost all lavaliere mics are also condenser mics (phantom powered) and have a higher initial gain. Omindirectional capsules are intended for studio, stage, and video recording, situations in which they are not routed or exposed to a live PA system. If you have to use extensive EQ and notches then they are not the capsule to use because fidelity will very quickly be sacrificed under all the processing.

Use cardioid lavaliere capsules for ceremonies and align them carefully with respect to the source. The cardioid mic will reject sound coming from the rear of the capsule.

Handhelds are almost exclusively cardioid and capsules like the SM58 (typical of DJ handhelds) are dynamic. In another thread there's a photo of a DJ leaving a wireless handheld mic on the ceremony trellis. While the intention of the thread is to chastise the DJ - his mic orientation is correct if he intends to capture both the initial "who presents this bride.." and the following ceremony, while also rejecting sound from the DJ booth behind the mic. Ideally that particular SM58 capsule would have been closer on a stand, but despite the placement, the physical orientation of the mic is correct.

A super-cardioid lavaliere is ideal for instruments and you often see them on something like a saxophone. Supercardiod mics when used for voice are almost always on a headset and with very tight tolerances. The referee at an NFL game for example, is wearing a supercardioid mic because it's the only type that can effectively reject the surrounding stadium noise. Supercardiod mics aren't effective for wedding ceremonies unless you can place the mic directly on the face. That would be a mic similar to what is used in theater production and a supercardioid capsule might help reduce noise from a nearby roadway, surf at the beach, or other ambient noise at a given location.

Another common source of mic issues in the DJ arena (emcee) is boosting the bass in an attempt to make one's voice sound deeper. This is the exact opposite of how a mic should be EQ'd for speech. (Speech mics should also not be routed to subwoofers unless it's a small system in which the bass bin is also covering the low-mids, and midrange.) Boosting the bass cannot make a voice sound deeper because it cannot add frequencies that are not present. It merely increases whatever lower tones exist and makes that speech less intelligible. The result is sound that is easily heard - yet not understood (muddy). DJs who attempt this often end up having to make the same announcements repeatedly before people can actually make out what is being said.

rickryan.com said:

Hmmm. That's odd because I'm willing to bet that practically all of the DJs here use a lav with a live PA for ceremonies (at least I do).

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I avoid lavs at every cost. Don’t compare to handheld.

rickryan.com said:

So you use hand-helds for the officiant? The ones I've worked with in the past would complain about trying to juggle a hand-held, along with their script/ipad.

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It is on a stand. I’ll be honest, having traveled I find lava to be more used in some parts of the country and handhelds to be more popular elsewhere. In nj you’ll see many ceremonies with handhelds on a Stand.

rickryan.com said:

Hmmm. That's odd because I'm willing to bet that practically all of the DJs here use a lav with a live PA for ceremonies (at least I do).

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Read more carefully, that's not what the post says.

"Lav" is a form factor (body type.) It does not alone describe the actual type of microphone being used.

djtaso said:

I avoid lavs at every cost. Don’t compare to handheld.

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"Lavaliere " only refers to the mics form factor (it's body type) - NOT the type of microphone capsule actually being used. If you apply the wrong capsule type then yes, you'll be very disappointed in the results. If you replace your hand held SM or Beta 58 with an SM87 you'll get very different results from the same handheld.

If we're making the correct microphone choice it won't matter if the speakers are column arrays or the typical boomers. Quality starts at the source of the sound not at the exit door. If you are using ANY mic in a live audio field then choosing the correct type and capsule is critical to get quality results.

I use lav mics all the time, including weddings and the audio quality is fantastic and very discreet. I will use handhelds on stands as "reader" mics (for people invited to come forward and read a passage during the ceremony.)

I often use the same or similar capsules in other form factors such as overheads, choral mics, and discreet secondary backup at podiums during critical public or broadcast speeches.

If you're not pleased with the results of a given microphone always start by examining whether it is in fact the right tool or product for the application. If you rent lavaliere microphones you need to specify the capsule you want and verify that you are in fact supplied with what you requested. If you simply ask for a "lav" mic you will by default receive an omnidirectional capsule because it's the most prolific ENG type. (Electronic News Gathering.)

djtaso said:

Rcf nxl4 and 8004's have been my main system since 2018 and can't find a single system that's worth replacing them with. You are normally looking at a $2700 per top and $3500 per sub ($12.5k total plus covers/wheels/etc)... but you can def get em for closer to 10k.

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Did you get a percentage discount for that gear? I know with GC depending on what you buy and how much it costs they give you a 15% discount. Some don't know that and if you know they won't tell you.

MIXMASTERMACHOM said:

Did you get a percentage discount for that gear? I know with GC depending on what you buy and how much it costs they give you a 15% discount. Some don't know that and if you know they won't tell you.

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I got a discount yes but this was also 2018. Different times. Now availability for this speaker is tough to come by. When I bought in 2018 the whole set was 10k MSRP before discounts.

rickryan.com said:

So you use hand-helds for the officiant? The ones I've worked with in the past would complain about trying to juggle a hand-held, along with their script/ipad.

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I'm not trying to derail your thread about speakers based on this... but I'll just share what I now use.

For my officiant's I've started using this Acaia Audio headworn mic: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...ro-headworn-microphone-for-shure-wireless-tan

My ceremonies have never sounded better from the officiant perspective. I absolutely love this thing and I wish I had started using it sooner.

I do use an omni-directional lav on my grooms to pick up the vows. And I use the omni because I'm also trying to get it to capture the bride. So I tend to place it a bit lower than I otherwise would so it's close to the bride's mouth level. I will tuck it next to his boutonniere if possible so that it can't really be seen.

There are certainly other things that I could change in my signal chain. But I've found the feedback issues on my Evox just aren't there if I'm using my Bose Compact L1s (column array) or my Pioneer DJ XPRS-12 (point source) speakers. So if that simple change makes it better, I just change the rig to accommodate the gig.

Albatross said:

I'm not trying to derail your thread about speakers based on this... but I'll just share what I now use.

For my officiant's I've started using this Acaia Audio headworn mic: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...ro-headworn-microphone-for-shure-wireless-tan

My ceremonies have never sounded better from the officiant perspective. I absolutely love this thing and I wish I had started using it sooner.

I do use an omni-directional lav on my grooms to pick up the vows. And I use the omni because I'm also trying to get it to capture the bride. So I tend to place it a bit lower than I otherwise would so it's close to the bride's mouth level. I will tuck it next to his boutonniere if possible so that it can't really be seen.

There are certainly other things that I could change in my signal chain. But I've found the feedback issues on my Evox just aren't there if I'm using my Bose Compact L1s (column array) or my Pioneer DJ XPRS-12 (point source) speakers. So if that simple change makes it better, I just change the rig to accommodate the gig.

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Both of those mics are omni.

The over-ear mic benefits from the facial placement which produces higher levels well above the ambient noise floor with far less gain applied. This is how they are used with actors on a theater stage where the monitors are mixed independently of the mains. This is an example of how important placement is when using an omni capsule. It works because the RATIO of distance to any other source remains greatly expanded in every situation save for two people hugging.

Trying to use a single omni lav to get both the bride and groom starts to equalize the ratio of distance to other sources and could make them sound like they're in an empty warehouse. The omni lav will have a much higher noise floor, and likely pickup sound from the speakers in addition to the couple. This is what produces a reverberate quality to their voice and can trap us under a gain ceiling well below where we would prefer the level to be. In other words - we sacrifice the quality of BOTH voices in an effort to add the other.

With a cardiod lav properly placed on the groom (the couple often face each other for vows) we can get cleaner sound from both because we'll have more available gain to use when the bride speaks. We can raise the fader for the bride because the ceiling will be higher before excessive ambient noise, reverberation, or feedback.

It's best to have a few mic choices available to deal with whatever environment we are faced with. A single solution is not going to work everywhere for all ceremonies. Also, the column arrays typically have a wider horizontal dispersion (~120 deg) than front baffle boomers (~60-90 deg) which means you have to be very attentive to speaker placement when using them with ceremony mics.

FYI: There are downsides to lavalier / bodypack mics that transcend the speaker type and all other audio issues.

I once had a politician finish his speech, then be ushered off to his limo for the airport. The mic and body pack had to be mailed back after they landed on the other side of the country.

I've never had that happen to a speaker system, not even a compact column array.