Evox 12s Have Less Power Than I Expected

[Albatross]

Last night was my first real test of the RCF Evox 12 system. The first time out, one of them decided to go belly up on me and RCF sent a replacement unit very quickly. I wish it hadn't happened, but I appreciate the service level.

Last night I was out at a golf club in Virginia doing a tented wedding for about 120 guests. I sound checked them for a while, and they sound really nice. Consistent with what I've read online the mids are really creamy smooth, and the speaker sounds crisp. It confirms my decision that my ear was no longer pleased with my QSC rig and that I want to improve it.

But when we got to dancing... I just found myself wanting more. I had the limiter light blinking on from the bass, and I pulled it back a hair to try to keep it off, but it really wasn't that loud. I've read where people talk about this system being good for weddings of up to 300 guests, which is really what boggles my mind... I'd be scared to put these out for 200 guests, let alone 300.

What I don't really know is the affect of the line array system versus a more traditional box. Before purchase I was concerned about that configuration. I liked having directional speakers for my mains to keep the sound focused on the dance floor, and keep the rest of the room at a comfortable speaking volume. These have a way broader dispersion pattern. So, maybe I'm just expecting way hotter sound right on the dance floor, and more sound is escaping left and right...

Granted, the wedding still went very well (Instagram post by Bela Sono Music • Sep 24, 2017 at 4:47am UTC) - but I find myself almost wanting to go back to the drawing board to find something with more horsepower.

 

[djtaso]

Talk about a throw back in that video! I think because it's an all in one system, you just don't have enough power going to those components to do larger scale events or ones that you want to just give more power to. Perhaps the nx l24 (1400w just for your mids and hi's) is what you're looking for with a single 8004 (or 8003) or dual 905 sub combination. I know they're not cheap, but if you want more from your sound, that's really the only next step up in the line array world. You could go the yorkville paraline route, but it'll cost more as you'll need 4 tops for those larger events or rooms where more coverage is needed.

 

[Albatross]

Talk about a throw back in that video! I think because it's an all in one system, you just don't have enough power going to those components to do larger scale events or ones that you want to just give more power to. Perhaps the nx l24 (1400w just for your mids and hi's) is what you're looking for with a single 8004 (or 8003) or dual 905 sub combination. I know they're not cheap, but if you want more from your sound, that's really the only next step up in the line array world. You could go the yorkville paraline route, but it'll cost more as you'll need 4 tops for those larger events or rooms where more coverage is needed.

I LOVED that they asked for Sandstorm, and it actually went over really well (obviously, lol). I dropped into Ignition Remix in halftime at the breakdown and they went nuts.

I'm looking at the NX l24 right now. In that range, FBT has a speakers and so does db Technologies which look interesting.

I'm not willing to move to the 8004 subs at this point. The 8004 would add 20+ pounds and a lot of money. What I was pondering though, is running the NX l24s over QSC KW 181s. I've really like the 181, and I think I could keep the power matched close enough that the RCF doesn't sound ridiculous on top. My real issue with the QSC was clarity and crip-ness on top. The sub has been good for me.

I'd prefer to keep a totally matched system, but I think that would actually be a pretty decent cocktail if I needed to mix and match for a bit.

 

[djtaso]

Being that I had the kw181's and was trying really hard to not hav to get new subs... my issue was that the qsc kw doesnt have a built in crossover and l24 don't have an "external sub" mode meaning they'll be receiving a full range signal unless you have an external crossover. If fbt or db technologies has tops w/ a frequency cutoff and you can save money, I say go for it. Paint the logos black and no one will know lol.

 

[Albatross]

The DSP on the IG4T looks pretty bonkers: INGENIA IG4T - dBTechnologies

 

[rickryan.com]

I'm guessing you're going straight from mixer to amp? Try inserting a quality compressor. I use a dbx166. It's amazing how much headroom you'll gain.

 

[B-Sharp]

I had the limiter light blinking on from the bass, and I pulled it back a hair to try to keep it off, but it really wasn't that loud.

That's part of your problem - you backed off on the volume. By design, the EVOX system's limiter light is fine if it's flickering or blinking orange and the input level should be turned down if it's solid. It doesn't actually go into any type of protection mode until the limiter light turns red.

 

[Albatross]

I'm guessing you're going straight from mixer to amp? Try inserting a quality compressor. I use a dbx166. It's amazing how much headroom you'll gain.

A drive rack or something similar might improve it. But right now I'm comparing fairly apples to apples against my older stuff. I've always worried about compressing (already very compressed) music again and the effect it will have on ear fatigue throughout my events. It may be an improvement in the end, but I want to make sure the rig itself is capable of what I need first.

 

[Albatross]

That's part of your problem - you backed off on the volume. By design, the EVOX system's limiter light is fine if it's flickering or blinking orange and the input level should be turned down if it's solid. It doesn't actually go into any type of protection mode until the limiter light turns red.

I did read in the manual that they don't instruct you to turn it down unless it's solid. It just feels like you've got to push it into a spot where it really doesn't have any room to go up from there. I'm going to use them for the rest of this season with the exception of a 225 guest event that I'll go back to a traditional set up. So hopefully I'll get a better feel for them... or find a suitable replacement.

 

[rickryan.com]

A drive rack or something similar might improve it. But right now I'm comparing fairly apples to apples against my older stuff. I've always worried about compressing (already very compressed) music again and the effect it will have on ear fatigue throughout my events. It may be an improvement in the end, but I want to make sure the rig itself is capable of what I need first.

A driverack is not in the same league with the unit I suggested. I understand fully how compressed today's material is but I'm here to tell you, there still are a lot of transients and a good compressor in the chain will give you much better tone and headroom than what you're seeing.

 

[TwinSpinDJ]

Last night was my first real test of the RCF Evox 12 system. The first time out, one of them decided to go belly up on me and RCF sent a replacement unit very quickly. I wish it hadn't happened, but I appreciate the service level.

Last night I was out at a golf club in Virginia doing a tented wedding for about 120 guests. I sound checked them for a while, and they sound really nice. Consistent with what I've read online the mids are really creamy smooth, and the speaker sounds crisp. It confirms my decision that my ear was no longer pleased with my QSC rig and that I want to improve it.

But when we got to dancing... I just found myself wanting more. I had the limiter light blinking on from the bass, and I pulled it back a hair to try to keep it off, but it really wasn't that loud. I've read where people talk about this system being good for weddings of up to 300 guests, which is really what boggles my mind... I'd be scared to put these out for 200 guests, let alone 300.

What I don't really know is the affect of the line array system versus a more traditional box. Before purchase I was concerned about that configuration. I liked having directional speakers for my mains to keep the sound focused on the dance floor, and keep the rest of the room at a comfortable speaking volume. These have a way broader dispersion pattern. So, maybe I'm just expecting way hotter sound right on the dance floor, and more sound is escaping left and right...

Granted, the wedding still went very well (Instagram post by Bela Sono Music • Sep 24, 2017 at 4:47am UTC) - but I find myself almost wanting to go back to the drawing board to find something with more horsepower.

Albatross...

I'm thinking that the output sound was not what you expected because you were in a tent. I have the Evox 8 system and I did a 400 + military ball in a very large banquet room; however, I added my RCF ART 200's and ART 800 (15") subwoofers. The sound was excellent on the dance floor and the Evox projected to fill the remainder of the room with enjoyable sound. I would have used my Yorkville NX 750's and LS801P (18") subwoofer, but I had sold them several weeks before this event. And, the room was SUPPOSED to be only 2 sections deep, not 4 sections as it turned out. The cocktail hour was moved from the hallway to the 4th section (back of room). So, overhead house speakers worked out fine for cocktails.

If you look closely at the photo of the dancers, you can see the State flags at the back of the room. Cocktails were on the other side of that moveable section, so actually the sound from my system carried the 3 sections.



FYI: In one of the pictures you can see another set of speakers and mic stands--those were not mine. The 82nd Airborne Chorus performed on the dance floor as part of the program. I played for cocktails, dinner and dancing.

Steve, this is the event where I used the overhead sound system for speaking parts. I did use them for the cocktail and dinner music, however. Didn't worry about "delay" from front to back of room because of the overhead venue system.

 

[steve149]

A driverack is not in the same league with the unit I suggested. I understand fully how compressed today's material is but I'm here to tell you, there still are a lot of transients and a good compressor in the chain will give you much better tone and headroom than what you're seeing.

Driveracks have compression capability as well (though I would not recommend it for powered speakers). Compressing the output will limit the dynamic range .. yes you can get "louder", but rarely will you get "better".

 

[steve149]

I did read in the manual that they don't instruct you to turn it down unless it's solid. It just feels like you've got to push it into a spot where it really doesn't have any room to go up from there. I'm going to use them for the rest of this season with the exception of a 225 guest event that I'll go back to a traditional set up. So hopefully I'll get a better feel for them... or find a suitable replacement.

Just make sure you have the inputs on "line" and not "mic" .. and make sure the "boost" is off .. both will limit you quicker. Also, I find I get better performance out of the EVOX 8 by backing off the Volume knob on the bass unit (I usually run around 1:00) and increasing the output from the mixer (assuming you aren't at max).

 

[Albatross]

I'm thinking that the output sound was not what you expected because you were in a tent. I have the Evox 8 system and I did a 400 + military ball in a very large banquet room; however, I added my RCF ART 200's and ART 800 (15") subwoofers

I do lots of tent weddings, and I'm pretty familiar with how the sound dissipates differently. It was still underwhelming at best.

There's no doubt I could supplement the Evox system for bigger events... but I went with the 12s so I wouldn't have to for most gigs. If I have to add 4 more speakers... I might as well just buy a beefier system. My average wedding is 75-175 guests. If my standard rig can't handle that in stride, I'm not set up right. If I need to supplement for my rare 200+ wedding, I can live with that.

 

[Albatross]

Just make sure you have the inputs on "line" and not "mic" .. and make sure the "boost" is off .. both will limit you quicker. Also, I find I get better performance out of the EVOX 8 by backing off the Volume knob on the bass unit (I usually run around 1:00) and increasing the output from the mixer (assuming you aren't at max).

I had the volume on the sub at 2:00ish, so I wasn't far from that. And I'm definitely sending a hotter signal from my SZ than I used to on the QSCs. I'll keep tinkering with it...

My next wedding is in a music venue that gets used for private events. The acoustics should be really nice, and I'll get a different angle at them.

 

[B-Sharp]

I had the volume on the sub at 2:00ish

Why? It should be set at max - confirmed with my friend who used to be an RCF product rep.

 

[steve149]

Why? It should be set at max - confirmed with my friend who used to be an RCF product rep.

Typically, you do it the other way around ... You set the mixer at unity gain, raise the speaker controls to get the maximum desired output, then adjust the volumes from the mixer. Most speakers have unity gain below the maximum level, which is usually there for low input levels .. not maximum output. I've found on the RCF, that you drive it quicker to limiting if you don't back off the adjustment on the speaker.

 

[steve149]

Another thing to check (and you may have .. this is a general comment) is the overall gain staging. Even on a DJ mixer/controller, gain staging is important.

For most systems, there are 4 gain stages .. input gain, channel gain, master gain and speaker (or amp) gain. Ideally, you want to start at the input and set the input gain to the maximum level before limiting (limit LEDs just glow at peaks), then set the channel fader to "unity" .. usually denoted by a "0" or shaded area on the fader, then set the output level to unity as well, then set the amp/speaker sensitivity levels (usually marked as volume, even though it really isn't for an amp) to the maximum you want it to be, then back off the main output level to get to the average levels you want.

The reason to run faders at unity level, is that is the point with the least amount of gain/reduction in that part of the circuit and usually has the least amount of noise, so that is where you want to run. The input gain IS a true gain stage and is necessary to get all inputs to a common level, and many powered speakers (ones without mic inputs) and most amps, have a sensitivity setting .. where they DO operate best at maximum.

However, speakers that have an adjustable gain (ones with mic/line inputs) USUALLY have a unity position below maximum. On my JBL PRX, the unity position is around 12:00 .. the remainder of the level control will both add gain AND add noise (necessary tradeoff for low input signals). On the RCF, they don't show a unity position, but I have found pushing the "volume" to maximum doesn't get me any more output than proper gain setting earlier in the path.

 

[DJ TJ]

Also I'm assuming you aren't running with any high pass filter engaged?
Once proper gain is set as per Steve's recommendation and you have experimented with the results from that, try inserting a high pass at 45-50hz and see if you can push any more out of it before it limits.
It may not help depending on how any internal dsp or x-over is already setup to protect the system but a hpf will at least tell you if the low freqs are the cause.

 

[Handinon]

Ham Radio operators have an old saying about vertical antenna's - they radiate equally poorly in all directions. It does not surprise me that these systems might be a poor choice for outdoors (or in a tent) - without walls for the sound to reflect off of, a lot of the acoustic energy of very wide dispersion speakers is wasted.