When backup gear really isn't suitable

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sawdust123

sawdust123

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Nov 10, 2006
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I'm on the right coast this week looking after my 94 year old mom. This evening I was bored and decided to check out the only karaoke in town. I arrived about 20 minutes before the show and the KJ was frantically setting up. He had decent gear including 2x EV Evolve 50s, 4 channels of Shure wireless and a Yamaha MG mixer. He was also using a wireless link to feed the bar's TV and a wired link for the singer's 50" monitor. All good so far. We chatted briefly about his gear when I walked in so he knew I was an audio guy and occasional DJ/KJ as well.

The time to start comes and he is still hooking things up and tidying up cables. OK, its a casual place and not crowded. A few minutes late is no big deal. Then he seems to be at his computer looking really troubled. Apparently, it can't see his external drive. I told him if his drive failed he could install Karafun and use my account to get through the gig. He turns me down. After 15+ minutes, he realized he attached the wrong power adapter to his drive. The drive now comes alive. However, now VDJ won't start. He starts running all sorts of diagnostic scans on his computer but they are progressing slowly. The bar is filling with regulars and he tells them it will just be a few more minutes. I offered to grab my PC with both Karafun and VDJ on it and be back in 20 minutes. He declines saying he is close to figuring it out. Another 20+ minutes passes and I check in again with him. He is attempting to reinstall VDJ now but the installer is hung up. It is over an hour past the start time. I even told him I had Karafun on my phone and he could start the show with that if he wanted. Nope. He was adamant that he was going to get his PC working.

He then tells me that this PC is really his 10 year old backup. It was an early generation I3 with just 4 GB RAM but it is "really reliable." Apparently not. The woman I saw him talking to when I first arrived was another KJ host that needed to use his main computer and a song book because something happened to hers. I guess the guy is a multi-op but doesn't equip his other hosts with backups. It was now more than 80 minutes past the start time and I was done. The bar was now filling with increasingly impatient singers. I paid my tab, wished him luck and left.

For under $600, this guy could get a brand new 6-8 core laptop with 16+GB RAM and a 1TB drive. Why tempt fate with a laptop that can barely run the OS? The guy clearly buys decent gear everywhere else in his system so I doubt it is a money thing. Also, if my choice was between not canceling the gig up or accepting a stranger's help, I would probably take the help. I think his pride was getting in the way. Unfortunately, I will never find out if he ever figured things out.
 
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Thanks for this thread. I learned very early on that computer needs to have a certain ram speed to run a DJ software program. 4 gigs of ram for today's VDJ isn't enough ram speed to run the program without issues. If things were alright there should have been no need to reinstall VDJ. I just saw my friend last night doing Karaoke. He uses VDJ and Karafun for Karaoke. He didn't have any issues. I know he uses VDJ because I convinced him to stop using CDs to DJ with and become a computer DJ like I did. He was hesitant just like me until my partner showed me I could become a computer DJ and how much easier and better it would be. No more carrying CD books to a gig. My music is on a 2 TB portable HD. I also have a backup HD just in case if I need to use it. Thankfully I haven't had to use the backup HD.

You said if it were you and you were having problems like he was having, you would have put your ego to the side and accepted the help. In his case with it taking that long to get it to work if he ever did, I doubt the owner would want him to come back. People waiting that long to sing at a Karaoke thing I seriously doubt they stayed much longer and probably would not be in a mad rush to come back to that bar anytime soon. That being said my guess is he cost the owner a lot of money he could have made. If I was the owner I wouldn't have paid him anything and let him know you don't need to come there anymore to do Karaoke.
 
Well, that sucks (for him). Troubleshooting is a fine art (sometimes) and gets magnitudes harder when you find yourself under the gun.

Speaking of problems (and Karafun), I had what I consider my first legit complaint last night. I'm using Karafun with a pro subscription. The singers get on a list, then come up to the stage when their name is called. I ask them what song, search it, then hit play. It's reasonably efficient and I've had very, very few songs I couldn't find a track for. Last night, several of the regulars got blasted on shots, including one of the more popular singers. She came up to sing and could barely stand up, much less sing. She tried to do a song and failed, she was just too drunk. She then went back to gripe to her boyfriend that I had "the wrong version". He in turn went to one of the officers and complained, who then (politely) came to me to ask me to find an alternative that would give them multiple choices per song. I'm kinda at a loss for words and don't see how it's possible for me, a the K-jock to know which particular version of every song I'm supposed to play. I was kinda hoping this little sit-down gig might roll for a while but maybe not. Any suggestions appreciated.
 
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Had a troubleshooting test this weekend as well.
After testing the laptop audio for the ceremony system,
I took the laptop back inside to charge the battery.
When I came back outside for the ceremony,
the laptop had NO audio.
After a brief panic, I realized I had turned the speaker off, and never turned it back on.
 
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Hi Rick, when KJs used discs it was quite common to see in their catalogues with multiple versions listed (e.g. Sound Choice, Chartbusters, Sunfly etc). Some are better than others, some have verses or intros edited out as well, particularly with longer songs. Regulars usually know which version they like best.

Karafun makes its own versions and while I generally like them a lot, I do find incorrect lyrics on occasion. Overall, they are pretty good however, there are some artists that they just can't do (e.g. Dire Straits). This is where the Karafun Community is really helpful. Other users share their versions. This is what I need to do when I sing Sultans of Swing. The community versions are not selectable by singers from the app. Only you as host can see and select those. Some of them are notated with (SC) or (CB) to indicate which version it is but most are not. The other problem with the community versions is that there are no adjustable backup vocals like you get with the Karafun versions. Those backup vocals can be a huge aid for some singers.
 
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sawdust123 said:
Hi Rick, when KJs used discs it was quite common to see in their catalogues with multiple versions listed (e.g. Sound Choice, Chartbusters, Sunfly etc). Some are better than others, some have verses or intros edited out as well, particularly with longer songs. Regulars usually know which version they like best.

Karafun makes its own versions and while I generally like them a lot, I do find incorrect lyrics on occasion. Overall, they are pretty good however, there are some artists that they just can't do (e.g. Dire Straits). This is where the Karafun Community is really helpful. Other users share their versions. This is what I need to do when I sing Sultans of Swing. The community versions are not selectable by singers from the app. Only you as host can see and select those. Some of them are notated with (SC) or (CB) to indicate which version it is but most are not. The other problem with the community versions is that there are no adjustable backup vocals like you get with the Karafun versions. Those backup vocals can be a huge aid for some singers.
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Way back when (I dabbled in K-jock for a while), I had a hard drive with 100k karaoke tracks. I created a hardcopy book, that singers could scroll thru. It was like you said that the tracks would start with "SC", "KB", etc. I can see that it would allow singers to pick their particular version they want to sing, but it also greatly complicates and slows down the process of picking what song to sing. The other bad side, a lot of those tracks were bad and would often crap out and stop playing, right in the middle of the song. I always got dirty looks from the singer(s). I do NOT want to go back to that world. On this gig, the singers (who are often half-lit) walk onstage, tell me a song title and within a couple of seconds I have it pulled up and ready to start. It's easy, clean and quick and there's only been a few times where Karafun didn't have the track, even when you have the same song that's been cut by multiple artists.

I may have a talk with the bossman. I don't want to knee jerk react to a problem that's not really there. Keep in mind, this lady was smashed and even if I had a different version, she still would've been too drunk to sing it. It also was her boyfriend who was doing the complaining (there are some other dynamics going on). I think at this point I'm going to look into other subscription-based karaoke systems but am doubtful of finding anything better. I may have to have a talk with the bosses, to explain the issues, but I don't intend to make a change (for now). If it costs me a gig, so be it. Up to this point, they've all been raving how much better my setup has been over the old jock's setup. He had an iPad clipped to a mic stand and with bad audio. I have great sound and a 65" TV hanging out front, overhead.
 
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Well, most don’t consider computer as an important part of the business. Many don’t even have a backup computer or a plan. But this isn’t only DJs & KJs but businesses in general. I worked as an Intel Rep for 12 years & the stuff I’ve seen. Not only no backup computer, no plan but no backup of their data. So when the HD fails everything is lost.

Although I’ve haven’t had a HD fail at a event I’ve had at least 4 fail in the last 35 years. I have had to grab my back up laptop once or twice as trying to troubleshoot under pressure may not be the best plan or action. Hence my reason for 2 laptop & a backup, as I sleep better at night knowing everything is covered. And you’re right laptops are cheap now, there is no excuse not to have what you need. I paid $3600 for my first Gateway computer with a discount back in the 1990s
 
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My wife recently decided to get herself a new laptop. I got her the latest incarnation of the model that I have been very happy with. The biggest difference is that hers has a bigger screen and a 10-key on the keyboard (she is an accountant). It is way more PC than she currently needs but she wanted something that would last for a while. I set the PC up for her and while I was at it, I loaded up VDJ, Karafun and my music collection to make it a full backup for me. Although it is the same model family as mine but hers is more powerful (more RAM, larger drive, later generation processor). I still prefer the portability of my 14" screen over her 15.6" screen though. She will start using this PC next week after she retires from her current job and returns her work-provided laptop. Nonetheless, she is giving me crap that I "commandeered" her new laptop to be my newest backup. Isn't that what marriage is all about?
 
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Anyone using legacy PCs should know better than to rely on a single machine for time sensitive work. Even a KJ could afford to have multiple dinosaurs running older karaoke applications. It's not "backup" if you are handing it to someone else to do another gig somewhere else. Duh.

I'm pretty certain that his issues are due to a lack of attention to his "backup." Probably rarely used it until he gave his main PC to someone else. My money says his issues might boil down to one SIMPLE oversight - something I call the: Marty McFly dilemma.

Old PCs typically have dead batteries - including the one that maintains the CLOCK. When our software installation was 2005 but our computer thinks it's 1995 nothing works correctly because all of your drivers are experiencing a time warp. The very first thing we need to do when booting legacy PCs is check and reset the clock. If we don't - applications won't load properly and you can easily stroll down the rabbit hole of thinking everything needs to be re-installed. This also won't progress properly given the time warp. So, there you sit waiting for a Delorian (re-install) that will never get up to 88mph.

He wouldn't be the first guy to be working with a single laptop source. Old PCs are not the issue - it's the ONLINE connections that typically screw up an otherwise smoothly running but outdated setup. So, we isolate them from change, but the one thing that continues to change is the current date - and if your PC's clock has gone Back to the Future nothing will work right.

I love old PCs. They are great but you have to operate them in isolation them from the internet or anything that would want to update their legacy applications, operating systems, and drivers. Software and driver updates are the fastest killers of older machines, If we actively isolate a machine in a state ideal for a legacy application, install a new intenral clock battery as needed (or reset the clock at EVERY starup) it can serve us well for decades.
 
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sawdust123 said:
My wife recently decided to get herself a new laptop. I got her the latest incarnation of the model that I have been very happy with. The biggest difference is that hers has a bigger screen and a 10-key on the keyboard (she is an accountant). It is way more PC than she currently needs but she wanted something that would last for a while. I set the PC up for her and while I was at it, I loaded up VDJ, Karafun and my music collection to make it a full backup for me. Although it is the same model family as mine but hers is more powerful (more RAM, larger drive, later generation processor). I still prefer the portability of my 14" screen over her 15.6" screen though. She will start using this PC next week after she retires from her current job and returns her work-provided laptop. Nonetheless, she is giving me crap that I "commandeered" her new laptop to be my newest backup. Isn't that what marriage is all about?
Click to expand...
Happy wife Happy life.
 
Proformance said:
Anyone using legacy PCs should know better than to rely on a single machine for time sensitive work. Even a KJ could afford to have multiple dinosaurs running older karaoke applications. It's not "backup" if you are handing it to someone else to do another gig somewhere else. Duh.

I'm pretty certain that his issues are due to a lack of attention to his "backup." Probably rarely used it until he gave his main PC to someone else. My money says his issues might boil down to one SIMPLE oversight - something I call the: Marty McFly dilemma.

Old PCs typically have dead batteries - including the one that maintains the CLOCK. When our software installation was 2005 but our computer thinks it's 1995 nothing works correctly because all of your drivers are experiencing a time warp. The very first thing we need to do when booting legacy PCs is check and reset the clock. If we don't - applications won't load properly and you can easily stroll down the rabbit hole of thinking everything needs to be re-installed. This also won't progress properly given the time warp. So, there you sit waiting for a Delorian that is never going to arrive,

He wouldn't be the first guy to be working with a single laptop source. Old PCs are not the issue - it's the ONLINE connections that typically screw up an otherwise smoothly running setup. So you isolate them from change, but the one thing that continues to change is the current date - and if your clock has gone back to the future nothing will work right,

I love old PCs. They are great but you have to operate them in isolation them from the internet or anything that would want to update their legacy applications, operating systems, and drivers. Software and driver updates are the fastest killers of older machines, If we actively isolate a machine in a state ideal for a legacy application, it can serve us well for decades.
Click to expand...
What it could be is needing to shut the program down and restart it again. I've had to do that at times. I wonder what they decided to with that DJ?
 
Sucks for that guy. I would be totally embarrassed in a public setting like that...and 80 minutes after start time...WOW. I would have literally pulled my phone out, and just had people do karaoke with my phone bluetoothed to a bose speaker or something so there is something happening. OMG.

You see...this is what happens when DJs/KJs do $150 to $200 gigs at bars. They end up treating the events like $150 to $200 events which creates negligence, and a big lack of preparation/quality of service. He might have had nice, expensive speakers, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is an experienced, seasoned person who makes sure they have back ups figured out for these events.

Only bringing a single old, cheap laptop to an event is a bad situation waiting to happen.

I only do like 2 karaoke events a year, and they are corporate so doing them are tolerable. I won't bother with bar karaoke gigs. It ain't worth it, and there is no personal satisfaction with doing those events. It's literally just a paycheck to the KJ/DJ, and a small paycheck at that. DJs/KJs tend to book and perform these gigs because of desperation for money, and MAYBE for some people it's because they are bored and want something to do, but you can always find other things to do with your time.

I saw these events as a hassle and glad I stopped bothering with them. I'll do a corporate karaoke event, or a private birthday that has karaoke involved, but bar gigs aren't my thing these days.
 
DJ Ricky B said:
You see...this is what happens when DJs/KJs do $150 to $200 gigs at bars.
Click to expand...
This to me is a total crock. How is you operating from your cell phone any more impressive than the guy with a non-functional laptop? Both SCREAM unprofessional.

Everything after that is a fantasy. The transactional value of these events may be low, but that itself is not a measure of anyone providing them, and it's too transparent to be citing this as a way to elevate ourselves.

Even the best qualified IT and event people can get distracted by simple errors regarding a piece of gear. The only real fault this guy had was lack of another source device on site, and an unwillingness to accept help. Yes, he should have had a second device capable of doing whatever that PC was slated to do. (NOT just a cell phone.) Yes, he should have accepted the help that was offered.

The word "cheap" has no place in this context because we don't even know if there was any money involved at all. By analogy, are we going to call Rick "cheap" because he sings at a restaurant for a modest fee? He wants an audience and wants to be seen. If people who like to perform had to pay the venue for the performance space and time - many probably would! Example: Sawdust was perfectly willing to go home and get his own PC in order to make the performance happen despite no obvious monetary benefit to helping.
 
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Proformance said:
This to me is a total crock. How is you operating from your cell phone any more impressive than the guy with a non-functional laptop? Both SCREAM unprofessional.

Everything after that is a fantasy. The transactional value of these events may be low, but that itself is not a measure of anyone providing them, and it's too transparent to be citing this as a way to elevate ourselves.

Even the best qualified IT and event people can get distracted by simple errors regarding a piece of gear. The only real fault this guy had was lack of another source device on site, and an unwillingness to accept help. Yes, he should have had a second device capable of doing whatever that PC was slated to do. (NOT just a cell phone.) Yes, he should have accepted the help that was offered.

The word "cheap" has no place in this context because we don't even know if there was any money involved at all. By analogy, are we going to call Rick "cheap" because he sings at a restaurant for a modest fee? He wants an audience and wants to be seen. If people who like to perform had to pay the venue for the performance space and time - many probably would! Example: Sawdust was perfectly willing to go home and get his own PC in order to make the performance happen despite no obvious monetary benefit to helping.
Click to expand...
Sorry to say this. Nothing wrong with using a cellphone to get the job done. I have used a cellphone to go online to get a song to play that's not on my HD. Another computer would be the ideal thing to have to use for a backup when the main computer has issues and not working the way it should. Now if a cellphone doesn't solve the problem then that's a big problem.

Let me say this. Now some clients have become spoiled. They automatically think about a DJ should be able to get any song quickly if they don't have it. We do agree that if he couldn't get things fixed himself he should have accepted the help being offered to him. He might have felt this way. I don't know this guy and I don't know if he knows what to do to fix the problem. He might have thought this guy might damage something instead of fixing the problem.
 
Playing a request from your cell phone is just a temporary hack. If the song is worth having you'll certainly add it to your library.
Thinking your phone is a backup device to run the show is completely amateurish.

Streaming may be a working source for club DJs who have access to high speed reliable or exclusive internet. But even there - a professional would have a local source of media to work from if the connection failed.
MIXMASTERMACHOM said:
Sorry to say this. Nothing wrong with using a cellphone to get the job done.
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Low expectations lead nowhere. This KJ appears to have had the same attitude regarding backup gear.
Neither he or the person he is said to have given his primary machine took this issue of backup seriously enough to have additional PCs that had been tested as ready to work. How many threads can I potentially find on this site where a gig didn't happen because you yourself couldn't get a piece of gear to work?

Anyone with a smart phone can download a DJ application and mix music using the cell phone app. No professional I know would actually do that for more than a 15 minute impromptu promotional set.
 
rickryan.com said:
The singers get on a list, then come up to the stage when their name is called. I ask them what song, search it, then hit play. It's reasonably efficient and I've had very, very few songs I couldn't find a track for.
Click to expand...
You need a broader karaoke library than just the online KaraFun stuff if you really want to survive public facing karaoke gigs. When I was last doing karaoke I would have the full DK, Chartbusters, Sound choice, and other branded collections on a local hard drive along with downoads acquired over the years for requests.

Rather than just a list of names, I always had singers check in with me to choose a track and maintained a running cue in the software. It also made the show move faster and allowed time for more singers because they merely had to step up to the mic and begin. The next signers name would also scroll across the bottom of the screen during a performance so it was already clear who was up next. If a perspon had left, changed their mind, or preferred to go later it was a very simple skip forward.
 
Proformance said:
You need a broader karaoke library than just the online KaraFun stuff if you really want to survive public facing karaoke gigs. When I was last doing karaoke I would have the full DK, Chartbusters, Sound choice, and other branded collections on a local hard drive along with downoads acquired over the years for requests.

Rather than just a list of names, I always had singers check in with me to choose a track and maintained a running cue in the software. It also made the show move faster and allowed time for more singers because they merely had to step up to the mic and begin. The next signers name would also scroll across the bottom of the screen during a performance so it was already clear who was up next. If a perspon had left, changed their mind, or preferred to go later it was a very simple skip forward.
Click to expand...
Have you done Karaoke using Karafun? Karafun has thousands of songs for you to pick from to use for Karaoke. My friend uses it and there's not too many songs it doesn't have. I believe it has well over 30 thousands songs you can choose from. He told me it cost $50 a month.
 
I just realized were you on Long Island? I remember you saying on the East coast but I can’t remember was i here or NJ. The pay here sucks for karaoke with some just getting $100 to $150 for bars & restaurants, less than what what they pay DJs. Why I only do karaoke at college & private events.
 
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