System gets louder the farther back you go?

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rickryan.com

Mac Daddy DJ
ODJT Supporter
Dec 9, 2009
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Hendersonville, TN
www.rickryan.com
I did a duo bar gig last night. Fairly large, rectangle room. Would probably hold 200-300. Concrete floors, with brick and glass garage door walls. Nothing but hard services. I'm using 2, EV Evolve 50M stick systems. During the first hour, the staff asked me to turn down twice, which I did. All was well. My duo partner walked back into the room to listen and her comment was "As you go farther back, it gets louder." The sticks were probably 15 feet apart. I have to admit, I've never seen a system that would behave like this. The sound always falls off as you get farther away. Any thoughts?

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I have to admit, I've never seen a system that would behave like this. The sound always falls off as you get farther away. Any thoughts?

I think you nailed it. HARD SURFACES.
Next time, try to place the sticks so you get some noise cancellation.
Just a thought.
 
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I think you nailed it. HARD SURFACES.
Next time, try to place the sticks so you get some noise cancellation.
Just a thought.

Man, I just don't see anything in that room that will cancel the noise. After I turned down (a couple of times) and after the SINGLE table that was complaining left, the part cranked up and they rocked until the last call. I think if the owner moves forward with making this a regular thing, we'll be able to put a lot more bodies in the building and maybe that will help tame the sound a bit. Thanks for the input Mike.
 
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Constructive Reflection.
We have to account for the placement of our speakers with respect to hard walls. The percieved issue is not necessarily a property of your speakers - save for the dispersion angles; rather it is about the geomerty of the room.

Your setup acquired constructive reflections closer to the rear of the room, while simultaneously suffering from destructive reflections up front. It's unusual, but not unlikely in a very hard surface space. This is especially true if the geometry of the room easily supports very simple reflections, and the surfaces have very little absorption, like structural glass and brick or concrete. When the distances are short, delay may be near negligible and we might not even notice where or how reflections are impacting our coverage. We may even appreciate the new reverberation and pat ourselves on the back for our fantastic speaker selection. :)

When a speaker is placed against a wall there is a +3db gain in low frequency energy. Placed in a corner (2 walls) we may get up to +6dB additional boost. That's assuming we position the speaker correctly such that the reflections are constructive. The Bose 901 speakers are an example of a product where this property was an inherent design factor and installation required a precise mounting relationship with a rear wall. Users who followed the instruction raved about the speakers and users who ignored the instructions were not impressed.

In a 'hard' surfaced room reflections are numerous and with little attenuation. In other words, the room gets loud even at low amplification, but that loudness is not consistent across the space. Anywhere the reflections are constructive - it will sound louder. Destructive reflections obviously reduce the perceived level.

More specifically - comb filtering is constructive/destructive interference at specific frequencies which is what most commonly occurs. The effect is most apparent to us with frequencies at which we are most sensitive (certain hi or mid bands) and we also tend to equate 'loudness' with lower frequencies because it is the lower mid and bass ranges that make it hard to have a conversation in the room. (Check the EQ in most restaurants running background music and you will find that it looks like an intermediate ski slope from about 500Hz on down, Removing all of the bass an most of the low mids is what makes it possible to converse in the presence of constant background music.
 
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I meant positioning the two speakers so the audio meets at a point in the room where
it cancels itself out.

Not a lot of flexibility here. To the right are a bunch of couches. Farther to the left and I have a speaker behind a pool table with drunk guys that can fall into it. Do you think fanning the speaker outwards might help?
 
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Constructive Reflection.
We have to account for the placement of our speakers with respect to hard walls. The percieved issue is not necessarily a property of your speakers - save for the dispersion angles; rather it is about the geomerty of the room.

Your setup acquired constructive reflections closer to the rear of the room, while simultaneously suffering from destructive reflections up front. It's unusual, but not unlikely in a very hard surface space. This is especially true if the geometry of the room easily supports very simple reflections, and the surfaces have very little absorption, like structuaral glass and brick or concrete.

When a speaker is placed against a wall there is a +3db gain in low frequency energy. Placed in a corner (2 walls) we may get up to +6dB additional boost. That's assuming we position the speaker correctly such that the reflections are constructive. The Bose 901 speakers are an example of a product where this property was an inherent design factor and installation required a precise mounting relationship with a rear wall. User who followed the instruction raved about the speakers and users who ignored the instructions were not impressed.

In a 'hard' surfaced room reflections are numerous and with little attenuation. In other words, the room gets loud even at low amplification, but that loudness is not consistent across the space. Anywhere the reflections are constructive - it will sound louder. Destructive reflections obviously reduce the perceived level.

More specifically - comb filtering is constructive/destructive interference at specific frequencies which is what most commonly occurs. The effect is most apparent to us with frequencies at which we are most sensitive (certain hi or mid bands) and we also tend to equate 'loudness' with lower frequencies because it is the lower mid and bass ranges that make it hard to have a conversation in the room. (Check the EQ in most restaurants running background music and you will find that it looks like an intermediate ski slope from about 500Hz on down, Removing all of the bass an most of the low mids is what makes it possible to converse in the presence of constant background music.

Good info, thanks. I did have to knock back the lows on the track channel. It was quite boomy. Overall, sound worked very well. I LOVE those 50Ms, it's a killer system. I hope they schedule us there some more. Good room and good crowd, all young folks. I was surprised when we had a couple of folks who actually left then brought a batch of friends back with them, then stayed until closing time.
 
Not a lot of flexibility here. To the right are a bunch of couches. Farther to the left and I have a speaker behind a pool table with drunk guys that can fall into it. Do you think fanning the speaker outwards might help?
The other thing to check is the vertical dispersion angle.

You will get very different results from a speaker when it is on the floor versus on a riser. When I say 'speaker' I'm referring to the 'kit' (speaker/stand or bin/column) not simply a speaker placed on the floor. You may need to tilt them (or untilt) based on how sound is being delivered to the back of the audience/room or how that delivery is being affected by ceiling reflections.
 
Rick, many years ago I gave a talk at Mobile Beat where I addressed room modes and speaker placement. Back then DJs seemed quite concerned about subwoofer placement. In my talk I put a subwoofer on a cart and cranked up a bass note until the ceiling tiles in the ballroom rattled. I then asked the crowd to raise their hands if they thought it was loud. Not everyone did. I moved the speaker without changing the note or volume and asked again who thought it was loud. Different people raised their hands. I did it a few more times and each time I moved the speaker, different people thought it was loud. The point of the demo was that it is impossible for the average person to predict the reflections will be constructive or destructive. You just have to experiment. Now if you are really interested, there is software that can help you predict this. Meyer Sound used to distribute such software for free. I don't know if they still do. There are other software packages that you can buy that do this but they take some training to use.

BTW, one of the most important reflections to be aware of though is something called slapback. This is the echo return from the wall opposite the speakers. At some point in the room the reflected sound level will be equal in level to the direct sound level. This is called the critical distance. If the wave fronts are in phase you get a huge boost and if in opposite phase, you get a null. You can reduce slapback by properly aiming the speakers. However, the M50s and similar stick models have very wide dispersion so this trick probably won't work. What you can do though is change the distance the speakers are from the wall. A change of a few feet can greatly change the interference patterns. You just need to experiment.
 
Let me say this as a lot of you already know. When you're behind your speaker setup at your station, you can't really tell how loud the sound is. You need to play a song and come out I'm front of the speakers to tell if it's too loud or not.

If it's too loud then you adjust the master volume and also I adjust my levels on VDJ to a comfortable level so the sound is not screaming and people's ears ringing because it's too loud.

I don't know what to do about a room that has a bad echo or the room has horrible acoustics. In some rooms there's not much you can do to get the sound perfect. You just have to do the best you can. Simply put some rooms/ venues are horrible places to have an event in with a DJ doing the event.

What has happened is sometimes when I first load VDJ the levels on the faders will be at the highest level and I use the cursor to make the adjustment to a good level. Then adjust the master volume knob to a good point and leave it there until someone wants to talk on the microphone.

My buddy would turn down the volume on the microphone volume knob and had to adjust the volume anytime someone wanted to talk on the microphone. I just suggested that he simply turn the mic off until it's time to use it again. That's what I do so I don't have to worry about having to keep adjusting the microphone volume knob. Simply put set it and forget it.

I only been to Radio City Music Hall once and that was to see Earth Wind and fire in concert. That is the best acoustics I have ever heard in a theater!
 
By the way, here's a montage from the gig in question. It was a lot of fun and the crowd loved the karaoke aspect of it. My duo partner has never done anything besides full bands. I kinda wondered if she'd be resistant to sharing mic time with a bunch of singers but several times she leaned over and told she absolutely loved what we were doing. Here's the vid. Comments welcome:
View: https://vimeo.com/1046861833
 
I love live band karaoke. There is a local group out here that has been doing this for about 10 years. They would probably be just a run-of-the-mill bar band but they have set themselves apart by making their shows 100% karaoke. They have about 500 songs to choose that covers a lot of genres. They will provide some vocal backup to singers that are struggling.
 
I love live band karaoke. There is a local group out here that has been doing this for about 10 years. They would probably be just a run-of-the-mill bar band but they have set themselves apart by making their shows 100% karaoke. They have about 500 songs to choose that covers a lot of genres. They will provide some vocal backup to singers that are struggling.

Me too. I've worked in bands forever but I'm really liking this format. Just got a call for this Saturday and I'm looking to add a live drummer. For the karaoke piece, I'm using Karafun, which gives us 100k songs for the singers. They really took to this Monday night. Fingers crossed.
 
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The video was nice. It just focused on only one thing. I would have liked to see the crowds reaction. Let me ask was the sound good when shooting the video?
 
The video was nice. It just focused on only one thing. I would have liked to see the crowds reaction. Let me ask was the sound good when shooting the video?

My opinion, yes, the sound was good. I did have my guitar amp shooting straight at the camera/mic so it was too far in the mix. My partner said it was good in the room.