Live Music Questions

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I solo into the phones all the time. Part of my issue is that I do a lot of events with kids. Sometimes they move their lips but don't sing. Yet there is enough stage volume for it to seem like there is some singing going on from the meters. Also, I use a lot of lavs and their wires are delicate and prone to crackle. I need to single out the offending mic and shut it off. Granted, I am working with 24+ lavs at times and I wouldn't be with a small remote mixer. I usually mix with an O1V96VCM.

As for a BT phone link, the latency would make this untenable. Even with BT APTx low latency (~40ms) the phones would sound like a slapback, not the main signal. Singers usually start to have problems if their monitors are more than 10ms delayed.

This doesn't make a lot of sense. You can solo the kids channel to hear if the kid is singing, but if he's not - there's nothing you can do with a mixer to change that. Finding a bad mic among 24 well, you need to get better mics. If there are 24 kids why aren't you using overhead chorus mics and head setting only the soloists? At the very least, with 24 open mics you should have them in an auto-mixer rather than trying to man handle them all.

How are you getting 24 mics into a mixer with a stock configuration of 12 mic pre's? What's your expansion card and I/O at the stage end?

You last comment makes no sense at all, because the solo is for headphones. Delay is not an issue when you're tweaking channel strips. You wouldn't use the headphone output for monitors at a FOH position - you'd home run an aux send, and delay it to match the program arrival. Not sure why you're describing a singer's monitor as connected to your headphone jack???
 
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Kids and volunteers do not treat delicate equipment with care. I use three brands of lavs and it is rare that I don't have at least one broken one after each show. I always keep spares available and can sometimes fix broken units during the show (I have someone run the unit up to me at FOH). The cast size is usually over 100 kids and while half the mics are on stage, the other half are being taken off the kids in the last scene and being placed on the kids for the next scene. It is quite chaotic and pretty fast paced. This is where most of the damage takes place. We've been doing this for over 15 years and it usually works pretty well.

I have the 01V96 outfitted with 3x ADAT interfaces (1 is built in the other two are in the expansion slot). My wireless receivers are in racks of 8, each with an 8-channel A-D converter. That's how I get 24 mics into the mixer (see pic). I also have 4-8 overheads depending on the theater and 4-6 PZM/PCC floor mics. These are run through the house mixer. However because these kids sometimes barely project and the choreographer doesn't block out the songs according to the mic location, it is hard to count on these except for the largest group numbers. We typically only have three rehearsals on the actual stage before we start doing the shows in front of an audience.

Yes, the solo is for the phones. I was just making the comment about singers and monitor latency because that is a pretty well known problem. BT delay in the headphones would be like talking on a cell phone to someone standing near you in the same room. The difference in arrival time of the two signal paths is pretty annoying.
 

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Kids and volunteers do not treat delicate equipment with care. I use three brands of lavs and it is rare that I don't have at least one broken one after each show. I always keep spares available and can sometimes fix broken units during the show (I have someone run the unit up to me at FOH). The cast size is usually over 100 kids and while half the mics are on stage, the other half are being taken off the kids in the last scene and being placed on the kids for the next scene. It is quite chaotic and pretty fast paced. This is where most of the damage takes place. We've been doing this for over 15 years and it usually works pretty well.

I have the 01V96 outfitted with 3x ADAT interfaces (1 is built in the other two are in the expansion slot). My wireless receivers are in racks of 8, each with an 8-channel A-D converter. That's how I get 24 mics into the mixer (see pic). I also have 4-8 overheads depending on the theater and 4-6 PZM/PCC floor mics. These are run through the house mixer. However because these kids sometimes barely project and the choreographer doesn't block out the songs according to the mic location, it is hard to count on these except for the largest group numbers. We typically only have three rehearsals on the actual stage before we start doing the shows in front of an audience.

Yes, the solo is for the phones. I was just making the comment about singers and monitor latency because that is a pretty well known problem. BT delay in the headphones would be like talking on a cell phone to someone standing near you in the same room. The difference in arrival time of the two signal paths is pretty annoying.
How are you dealing with gain increases from so many multiple open mics?

Use better isolating headphones. Unlike DJing you don't want to compare what you cue to the monitors or mains. That's why a BT delay wouldn't really matter when you're analyzing a source or monitr output.
 
How are you dealing with gain increases from so many multiple open mics?

Use better isolating headphones. Unlike DJing you don't want to compare what you cue to the monitors or mains. That's why a BT delay wouldn't really matter when you're analyzing a source or monitr output.

Mic choices and monitor placement are critical anong with stage volumes and using AFS and ringing out the system during sound chechs. Also making sure each preformer knows to sing close to the mic so you don't have to jack up the gain when someone wants to stand 3 feet from the mic.
 
Mic choices and monitor placement are critical anong with stage volumes and using AFS and ringing out the system during sound chechs. Also making sure each preformer knows to sing close to the mic so you don't have to jack up the gain when someone wants to stand 3 feet from the mic.
AFS is available 2 ways .. by itself (and there are multiple companies making feedback reducers) it can help on mic channels (as a mic insert or a group insert) if there isn't enough trained hands to man EQs .. or for room use as part of a DriveRack or similar. AFS in a DriveRack shouldn't be used to manage mics .. it's too far along the process and will have a detrimental effect on the sound as well.
 
Mic choices and monitor placement are critical anong with stage volumes and using AFS and ringing out the system during sound chechs. Also making sure each preformer knows to sing close to the mic so you don't have to jack up the gain when someone wants to stand 3 feet from the mic.

More than that, multiple adjacent mics have an additive effect on the gain which is why the more mics you deploy the more broadband your feedback issues will become. If children's vocals is what he's trying to capture than simple gating might introduce a new set of issues.
 
NOM is always an issue with this show. Some numbers are always at the edge of feedback because the kids don't project. The nature of this program is that every kid gets a chance regardless of talent so I end up with some duds every year. We have resorted to backing vocals when necessary. Of course the loudest kid is usually the one furthest off key. The directors make sure each kid gets to solo a line or two. I have the solos mapped out and boost those mics when the kids have their lines. I have the script in front of me with the appropriate mic number next to each line.

The house system is well tuned. Any other pre eq is worthless. I consider myself lucky when all kids have the correct mic and all the cardioid lavs are placed pointing at the kids' mouths. The back stage mic crew is comprised of parent volunteers and some teenagers. In other words, it is not a well controlled environment. I just have to roll with what I get.
 
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I have known Dan Dugan for almost 15 years. We've discussed using his mixer for this show and the final determination is that it is not a good fit. One of the key issues is that the mic assignments change for EVERY scene. Some scenes may have only 6 mics and the next 15. And there are frequent mic substitutions. This is often because one mic doesn't get back to the mic room in time for the next number and so another one is assigned to the next scene 30 seconds before the lights go up. This would require last second reconfiguration of the auto-mix function. That just makes the work at FOH tougher, not easier. There were other issues too such as the number of inserts I had available (12) and the max number of channels he supported if I used one of his mixers before the mixer (16 at the time).

BTW, mixing this show requires one ear tied to the PL so I can stay in touch with the mic room and my other ear listening to the mix or headphone for soloing. This is why I don't use isolation headphones. Also, you are very correct in your earlier assertion that gating the mics doesn't work well with kids.
 
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I have known Dan Dugan for almost 15 years. We've discussed using his mixer for this show and the final determination is that it is not a good fit. One of the key issues is that the mic assignments change for EVERY scene. Some scenes may have only 6 mics and the next 15. And there are frequent mic substitutions. This is often because one mic doesn't get back to the mic room in time for the next number and so another one is assigned to the next scene 30 seconds before the lights go up. This would require last second reconfiguration of the auto-mix function. That just makes the work at FOH tougher, not easier. There were other issues too such as the number of inserts I had available (12) and the max number of channels he supported if I used one of his mixers before the mixer (16 at the time).

BTW, mixing this show requires one ear tied to the PL so I can stay in touch with the mic room and my other ear listening to the mix or headphone for soloing. This is why I don't use isolation headphones. Also, you are very correct in your earlier assertion that gating the mics doesn't work well with kids.

You shouldn't need to reconfigure anything upon mic changes. I don't know what the limitations are of the Yamaha Dugan expansion card, perhaps that's not the hardware to use.

I would just use three SCM810 (List: $1,375 ea. Used: ~ $75 ea.) They can all be linked and assigned to one input, though I personally would prefer each on it's own of 3 inputs assigned to unique mute groups. Infinite expansion, individual low cut and high self, last mic off, and no priority. There's not much to do about the mics if they are constantly changing hands among amateur performers. All that's required is a channel that will respond if and when they sing.

I wouldn't apply a lot of theoretical tech perfection to that kind of situation. The bigger issue is the logistics of all those kids and parents changing mics. Color code them by group in addition to numbering the packs so, spares and changes can be quickly made within the same mute groups.
 
Like I said, I have done this show over 15 years. It is pretty dialed in as far as optimization of the moving pieces. I have the mutes for each scene saved on the mixer. If I use an external auto-mixer, I cannot save the mutes. This is problematic because the transmitters are never switched off (intentionally) during the show. Switching mics between scenes is pretty noisy and you wouldn't want an auto-mixer responding to that noise.

I assign the mics in each scene so that the solo lines are pretty much in channel order. In other words, if I am using mics 1-10 for that scene, the first solo line will be on mic 1, the next on mic two, etc. This simplicity breaks down when kids have more than one line in a number and when there are last minute mic substitutions but such deviations are manageable. It is pretty rare that a solo is missed because I wasn't prepared at FOH. If the kid is not heard, it is usually because the kid didn't get a mic at all, the kid was not singing, the mic was muted (rare) or completely off or broken (less rare), the mic was mounted wrong, the wrong mic was placed on the kid, or the kid was absent for that performance and no one told me who was saying/singing that line instead (way more common than it should be).

I appreciate all your suggestions so far. As an industry insider. I have resources available to me that most don't. I could easily borrow just about any mixer (Digico, Midas, Yamaha, A&H, Soundcraft, etc) or other piece of gear if I wanted to. This system I cobbled together was also optimized for portability and simplicity. It breaks down into four cases that fit easily into the back of my car. I can also set it up within 4' of table space inside any theater.

The sad part of all this is that the program had to be cancelled this year due to a lack of volunteers and it is not clear if it will be able to resume next year. It was the only performing arts program of its kind in the county and it was a joy being part of it. Countless parents have told me what a profound difference this program has been for their kids. One wheelchair bound kid only joined because his sibling was in the program. He never had the acting bug beforehand but he went on to success Hollywood. Another kid had never danced beforehand and I learned she ended up with a career in ballet. A few others went on to careers in the theater arts and choreography as well. For the most part though, we just turned a lot of shy introverts into confident kids with a large groups of friends. In the many years we did this, we never turned away a kid because of their talent, ability or affordability. If you showed up to most rehearsals, you were in the show and every kid got a moment to shine alone.
 
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