CO2 Tank Does Pirouettes at a Wedding in New Jersey

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I also use tanks that have been inspected... so yes while I’m exposed... so Is the gas company in cases of defective tanks.

If you're paying attention, there was nothing defective about the tank that injured three people and ended the reception. It was improperly trained staff, and violations of the State code that requires compressed gas cylinders to be fixed and/or caged.

How about the photographer, caterer, venue, limousine company, wine distributor, and your DJ equipment manufacturers? Are you equally as cavalier about enjoining them in covering your risk? The point I'm trying to impress upon you is how this is perceived by other informed business professionals, or dangerously mis-understood among the wide field of amateur and semi professionals that make up so much of this industry. We are never insulated from liabilities that arise from the actions of other people.

The band Great White, whose "special effects" were the first domino in a disaster that killed 100 people in a RI night club had a $1M liability policy much like most of the DJs reading this right now. So did the venue, a former restaurant later turned into a dive bar/niteclub by a pair of brothers who also carried a similar minimum policy.

The ultimate total of the settled damages was around $115,000,000.00 (almost 58,000 times the combined value of insurance carried by the band and venue.) Others like the tour promoter, etc. also carried similar minimum policies. Who ended up paying?

$22,000,000.00 paid by Anheuser-Busch for the privilege of having Bud-Light on tap at the bar,
$ 6,000,000.00 paid by JBL Corporation because their brand of speakers were installed in the bar.
$ 5,000,000.00 paid by Home Depot because they sell insulation used in the venue.
$10,000,000.00 paid by the state of Rhode Island (every man woman and child for the privilege of living there.)

The list goes on and on of people and businesses that ended up paying for other people's sole discretion, including improper use of products, failure to abide by existing safety codes, lack of training, and failure to communicate or abide instruction. It has substantial personal risk to you as well. Three people received prison sentences and they will forever be tied to the unnecessary deaths of people's children, siblings, spouses, and friends.

One name conspicuously not found on the list - the manufacturer of the Pyrotechnic product. So, don't bank on the fact that there is some other poor schlep standing by to take the hit for you.
 
If you're paying attention, there was nothing defective about the tank that injured three people and ended the reception. It was improperly trained staff, and violations of the State code that requires compressed gas cylinders to be fixed and/or caged.

How about the photographer, caterer, venue, limousine company, wine distributor, and your DJ equipment manufacturers? Are you equally as cavalier about enjoining them in covering your risk? The point I'm trying to impress upon you is how this is perceived by other informed business professionals, or dangerously mis-understood among the wide field of amateur and semi professionals that make up so much of this industry. We are never insulated from liabilities that arise from the actions of other people.

The band Great White, whose "special effects" were the first domino in a disaster that killed 100 people in a RI night club had a $1M liability policy much like most of the DJs reading this right now. So did the venue, a former restaurant later turned into a dive bar/niteclub by a pair of brothers who also carried a similar minimum policy.

The ultimate total of the settled damages was around $115,000,000.00 (almost 58,000 times the combined value of insurance carried by the band and venue.) Others like the tour promoter, etc. also carried similar minimum policies. Who ended up paying?

$22,000,000.00 paid by Anheuser-Busch for the privilege of having Bud-Light on tap at the bar,
$ 6,000,000.00 paid by JBL Corporation because their brand of speakers were installed in the bar.
$ 5,000,000.00 paid by Home Depot because they sell insulation used in the venue.
$10,000,000.00 paid by the state of Rhode Island (every man woman and child for the privilege of living there.)

The list goes on and on of people and businesses that ended up paying for other people's sole discretion, including improper use of products, failure to abide by existing safety codes, lack of training, and failure to communicate or abide instruction. It has substantial personal risk to you as well. Three people received prison sentences and they will forever be tied to the unnecessary deaths of people's children, siblings, spouses, and friends.

One name conspicuously not found on the list - the manufacturer of the Pyrotechnic product. So, don't bank on the fact that there is some other poor schlep standing by to take the hit for you.
I'll second that...all the numbers I accept without vetting but the advise, diagnosis and prognosis is spot on.
 
Ive kept an eye on multiple dj add on fads in hopes of finding one i feel might be a nice addition for my clients.... i was initially excited by this... but i realized i was projecting my personal idea of cool on a local demographic that is more excited about a rustic centerpiece or row of twinkle lights... I am more than positive that this is a hit amongst other clientele ... but at this stage...I've began to look at it as a bit silly if you reeeeeally think about it...

I think you're indicating some insight and key understanding of what separates a well thought out customer service approach as opposed to competitive trendiness and the race to make the first flash in the pan.

I have no issue with CO2 installed in staging applications and the permanent club infrastructure. It's been around for decades. This recent trend however, is as you say - silly looking, and it's also a bit dumb. These DJs are essentially spraying the crowd with a fire extinguisher. All good until Granny's a** gets a freezer burn, or some kid is asphyxiated by suckin' a big gulp.

Most DJs are unaware of even the basic danger of dry ice fog. For example, multiple musicians were rushed to a hospital after they were suffocated when the no longer visible but still cold C02 from dry ice fog on stage flooded the orchestra pit. Image a local 'Bubble Party' DJ at a nursery school completely unaware of how his 'special effect' might fill an adjacent sunken play area with an invisible hazard.

This isn't rocket science - but, it can still hurt people quite badly. I compare using these guns to the hoards of people with missing fingers who never believed they would be hurt by fireworks.
 
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According to Wikipedia, the payouts were:

As of September 2008, at least $115 million in settlement agreements had been paid, or offered, to the victims or their families by various defendants:

  • In September 2008, The Jack Russell Tour Group Inc. offered $1 million in a settlement to survivors and victim's relatives,[31] the maximum allowed under the band's insurance plan.[32]
  • Club owners Jeffrey and Michael Derderian have offered to settle for $813,000,[33] which is to be covered by their insurance plan due to the pair having bankruptcy protection from lawsuits.[33]
  • The State of Rhode Island and the town of West Warwick agreed to pay $10 million as settlement.[34]
  • Sealed Air Corporation agreed to pay $25 million as settlement. Sealed Air made flammable packaging foam that was improperly installed in the club, which required acoustic foam designed for this purpose.[35]
  • In February 2008, Providence television station WPRI-TV made an out-of-court settlement of $30 million as a result of the claim that their video journalist was said to be obstructing escape and not sufficiently helping people exit.[36]
  • In March 2008, JBL Speakers settled out of court for $815,000. JBL was accused of using flammable foam inside their speakers. The company denied any wrongdoing.[37]
  • Anheuser-Busch has offered $5 million.[38] McLaughlin & Moran, Anheuser-Busch's distributor, has offered $16 million.[38]
  • Home Depot and Polar Industries, Inc. (a Connecticut-based insulation company), made a settlement offer of $5 million.[39]
  • Providence radio station WHJY-FM promoted the show, which was emcee'd by its DJ, Mike "The Doctor" Gonsalves (who was one of the casualties that night). Clear Channel Broadcasting, WHJY's parent company, paid a settlement of $22 million in February 2008.[40]
  • American Foam Corporation who sold the insulation to the Station Nightclub agreed in 2008 to pay $6.3 million to settle lawsuits relating to the fire.[41]
 
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I think the Wiki numbers (which is where I quickly grabbed then from) are probably not up to date. Last I heard, the total settlement was valued at closer to $175M.

Point is - trouble with this kind of stuff costs a whole lot more than our insurance companies suggest because its not just two cars randomly colliding. These are predictable and preventable tragedies to which we attract people through promotion, advertising, etc, and without disclosure of the known hazards.

If "surprise" is part of what makes an given effect attractive - then we have to be honest about just how many potential surprises are included.
 
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I think this Wiki numbers (which is where I quickly grabbed then from) are probably not up to date. Last I heard, the total settlement was valued at closer to $175M.
Could be .. I just posted them since there were a few other folks clearly not involved directly with the activity that got shafted in the end including a TV and Radio station ...
 
Could be .. I just posted them since there were a few other folks clearly not involved directly with the activity that got shafted in the end including a TV and Radio station ...
The TV and Radio stations (Clear One) had even bigger problems because in addition to being tied in with the promoter, their reporter was one of the partner's who owned the club. They also had conflict of interest issues with everyone from the FCC to the state and local authorities.

For example, the TV station aired a segment on nightclub safety a few weeks prior to the fire that was produced on-site at that club. Promoting events at that club, along with their reporter being an owner, plus witness testimony claiming one of their cameramen hindered egress - were huge downfalls for them.
 
I think you're indicating some insight and key understanding of what separates a well thought out customer service approach as opposed to competitive trendiness and the race to make the first flash in the pan.

I have no issue with CO2 installed in staging applications and the permanent club infrastructure. It's been around for decades. This recent trend however, is as you say - silly looking, and it's also quite of dumb. These DJs are essentially spraying the crowd with a fire extinguisher. All good until Granny's a** gets a freezer burn, or some kid is asphyxiated by suckin' a big gulp.

Most DJs are unaware of even the basic danger of dry ice fog. For example, multiple musicians were rushed to a hospital after they were suffocated when the no longer visible but still cold C02 from dry ice fog on stage flooded the orchestra pit. Image a local 'Bubble Party' DJ at a nursery school completely unaware of how his 'special effect' might fill an adjacent sunken play area with an invisible hazard.

This isn't rocket science - but, it can still hurt people quite badly. I compare using these guns to the hoards of people with missing fingers who never believed they would be hurt by fireworks.

I am all for innovations in the entertainment industry and give major kudos to the companies who take training and safety as seriously as it should be... the red flag on this particular trend was when i began seeing legitimate high end dj companies on youtube gig logs dragging around these tanks willy nilly.... and actually showing on public video them having zero idea how to even hook up the hoses... then learning the hard way that if you touch the nozzle in the wrong spot you get injured.... then handing said nozzle off to a drunken bride.

We've all spent time trying to teach a best man or father of the bride how to hold a mic to give a speech/toast....and they innevitably hold it the wrong way... now we are handing over a dangerous nozzle attached to a highly pressurized tank of gas to a rowdy groom who just sat his beer down on our sub to free up both hands.

....red flag

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i also see these used a lot at Quince's and sweet 16's... i imagine bringing harm to a minor on their birthday , after charging the price of a small car, wouldn't exactly warm the hearts of a jury.

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i also see these used a lot at Quince's and sweet 16's... i imagine bringing harm to a minor on their birthday , after charging the price of a small car, wouldn't exactly warm the hearts of a jury.

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Yes because they want a club atmosphere... just like many of the weddings that add them on... but my weddings typically don’t care for that effect. If you don’t offer something, someone else will... girls aren’t thinking about the worst case scenario, just that they want it. We have our tanks behind our facade or upfront and being held by an attendant when the hose isn’t long enough... and again not making changes or swaps mid event. Securing them is also not realistic as we are mobile djs in nature and can’t bolt them to the walls of the venue... or even a truss where it could then tip that over. Plus many djs here (not me as I have staging) bring their co2 tanks and guns to the middle of the dance-floor.

These are the trends that we encounter here, especially in an area where people want the latest and best. My wedding last night had dancing on the clouds and sparklers. It’s up to us to use best practices, as the trends won’t change, and the reality is venues will say yes until something happens... but they too ALWAYS give in when a couple says they HAVE to have something at a wedding, or else they’ll look elsewhere. So many venues say no only to find they constantly make exceptions... perhaps with a paper signed saying they are not liable. Maybe we need to do that too lol.

I know many will say don’t offer services To avoid these dangers. Even lighting though is dangerous if someone is epileptic and you don’t know about it. Are you responsible because you didn’t ask every guest in attendance? Even if you asked the client, they don’t know everyone’s condition.
 
Nothing is without risk .. it's always a matter of degree. Spark machines, smoke machines/hazers, "strobe" lights, speaker stands, trussing, yada, yada .. all potential hazards in some circumstance .. you mitigate what you can, treat it professionally, and insure for protection. Otherwise stay at home and away from the kitchen or bathroom.

edit - I see Taso mentioned some of these ...
 
So many venues say no only to find they constantly make exceptions... perhaps with a paper signed saying they are not liable. Maybe we need to do that too lol.

I assumed you were already implementing this in some fashion... most likely your contract.... highly surprised this just came to you as novel idea...lol

id get on that post haste...

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I fully realize that we are a slave to what our clientele are looking for... and what the latest fads are... but when those fads cross over into the ludicrous or dangerous... we may have to save them from themselves....

Thinking of the recently posted video of the wedding venue burning down due to "hot" spark machines... or stories like the original post here...These were dj's who did what their clients asked for...as well as Great White were simply trying to entertain their fans in that bar/club. Intent or demand isnt on trial here...

We owe it to our clients to insure these trends are fool proof and safe.... or else we have a moral obligation to discontinue said practice and convince the client who will "just go to someone else" that the reason YOU are the right choice is because you have their best interests at heart.

I realize thats a "precious" way to look at things...and the real world simply doesnt work that way.... So....all are welcome to do as they wish... the question is....does a few hundred dollar add on that will be a forgotten fad trump the crippling guilt and decimation of your career and business that might result from a split second moment of incompetence?

If you go to your doctor because you heard about this miracle cure on Dr. Oz....But your doctor knows of multiple cases of that fad procedure going terribly wrong....can he in good conscience play dumb and provide that procedure to you? I mean....the patient will just go to someone else right?

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The mere desire by a clients does not create, for my standards and practices, a rush to provide, specifically if falls outside the parameters of my capacities, proficiency/expertise and/or considered, self imposed risk taking standards.

Provide such options at your own discretion, risk and willingness to accept the responsibilities and potential consequences.

I do not offer or endorse inherently dangerous services or performances.
 
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Nothing is without risk .. it's always a matter of degree. Spark machines, smoke machines/hazers, "strobe" lights, speaker stands, trussing, yada, yada .. all potential hazards in some circumstance...
...and some/many other things are filled with inherent/strict danger.

That is the "matter of degree" that demands attention.
 
Do we carry any responsibility for perpetuating a "fad" with inherent dangers (even if we personally follow a strict course of guidelines in doing so) if said fad will be used by less savvy dj's who will follow the trends we create and possibly harm others by their lack of knowledge/preparedness/common sense?

maybe not...

but a question for the cosmos none the less

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About 12 years ago, a group of friends and I were really into paintball. One of these guys had farmland with bales of hay, old tractors, combines, and cars, etc. Perfect place for staging paintball battles. We were doing this about two to three times a month, sometimes every weekend. After awhile, our group of friends started inviting siblings, significant others, etc. Who in turn would invite others, who in turn would invite others. We never charged to play but we did charge if they wanted to buy paintballs (we always bought several boxes and sold them at cost) and to refill their CO2 tanks (again never at profit just at cost).

What we weren't doing was regulating how powerful some people had their guns cranked up to and their BPS. as our little hobby got bigger and bigger, we got worried and set up some regulations. We had a contract drawn up requiring protective eyewear or faceguard, stating you knew it was dangerous and if you were a minor it had to be signed by a parent, only certain people could fill up the individual gun tanks (anyone could get their tank filled up but only a few people who had been trained were allowed to do it) and we invested in a device that would test each gun's BPS and we adjusted to a non dangerous setting.

The point of this is we were covering out ass. I think SOME DJs who would offer a service like this (like Taso) are smart enough to do that, to know how to keep things safe and not keep things safe. Others, are not so smart and go do whatever they can, chasing a fad they may or may not understand how the equipment works. There may end up being regulations on things like this or cold sparks or whatever, but until there is (and there probably won't be until there is a tragedy) you're going to see people who take precautions and those who do not.
 
When handling inherently dangerous material, meaningful CYA precautions require more than anecdotal, pedestrian and non-expert involvement.

Proceed at your own and your client's and guests' risk.
 
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When handling inherently dangerous material, meaningful CYA precautions require more than anecdotal, pedestrian and non-expert involvement.

Proceed at your own and your client's and guests' risk.
I agree and as cool as I think those CO2 guns are, I would be very hesitant to use one myself. Just like, in the 12 years since we inadvertently started a paintball course, I wouldn't be so flip to just throw out a contract and some regulations and say that was good enough.

I'm not aiming this at Taso, who by all indications and from his videos, seems to take as much precautions as he can, I am merely stating that some people are going to be cautious and some aren't and it is up to us to decide if this is a service we want to offer or are willing to try if a client insists, and if so, what precautions we can and should take.