Weddings Your Ending Contract Time VS. The Venue's???

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:sqbiggrin:I had that problem with my daughters Quince because the owner said to start wrapping it up at 11:30 to the DJ. So he called me over and I went and told the DJ to keep playing because it is until 12:00 and if there is any problem then tell the owner to come and see me which he never did.
 
first thing I do is get ve3ry specific in my contract
load in time
coktail music starts at...
announcements begin at...
music ends at...

and I always discuss how long the hall is booked for.
most places here go with a 5-hour package
so that is what I usually sell.

END TIME is also the first question I ask to the hall person.
if there is a difference, I talk to the bride as soon as there is a comfortable time to do so.

haven't had a problem with the hall being booked LONGER than I was..
but had several occassions where it was the other way around
 
I always verify several times throughout the planning process. Lst year the B&G insisted that the times were 6 to 11. The venue had 6 to 12. The B&G insisyed that the venue was wrong and that it was 6 to 11. So, I went with them.

At the event the venue told me several times that the end was 12 but I told them that the B&G insisted that it was 11. At ten of 11 I start preparing for the farewell dance and the FOB comes up and tells me that it was supposed to be till 12. I showed him the contract that I had with the B&G and that ended at 11. He told me that he had paid the venue to go to 12 and that I was to stay till then. I told him that it would then cost another $150 for the extra hour payable only in cash. He gave me a hard time and told me he wasn't going to pay.

Bottom line, I did the farewell dance, closer, and then shut down. Once I start disconnecting gear, I'm done and I had already started when he came up with the $150. I told him sorry, the gear is being disconnected, I'm done. And I was. He wasn't happy but he wasn't my client. The B&G were happy.

Just me thinking out loud here....the b/g may have been your clients but daddy may have alot of pull in the community....so him bad mouthing you may work against you....again its just a thought.

We sometimes get so caught up in the letter of the contract we forget to be human also....a little good will can go a long way....guess it depends on the party to

Most of my events go 7 hours...start at 5pm go till midnight with 2 hours overtime at no charge if needed....now mind you most venues will not allow me to go past midnight anyway...will I get caught on this probly but if I have a party going that good its all good for me....
 
Don:

In this case it was a destination wedding and daddy's community is hundreds of miles away.

Also, have you ever been in a law suit over your contract? I have.

Judge: Mr. Ohlendorf, have you ever waived any oart of your contract?
Me: No, your honor.
Judge: Judgment for the plaintiff (me).

If I had said yes, what would have been the judgment?

If I had gone over in this case without enforcing overtime, I would have been waiving a portion of my contract. Now, I could still answer the judge's question as no; however, you won't be the one living with my conscience, will you?

If you don't enforece your contract then you just might as well not have one.
 
A stance many seem to be taking is that their own contract is their enemy, something that stops them from being a real human. If that is true, your contract is written incorrectly or you have been copy and pasting from other people's documents to the point of not knowing what you have but it sounds tough.

The purpose of a contract is not to win an argument or a case in court, it is to prevent having the argument or ending up in court.

The contract is an enabling instrument of authority on both sides of the piece of paper. It gives the client rights and privileges, it gives the DJ rights and privileges. The client tells the DJ what, where, and when, the DJ fills in the how, why, and who.

When I read anyone say that the contract is a mean, evil, gloomy, foreboding ogre, I laugh. They have no clue about what a great contract is all about nor the wisdom to see how a well written contract is a wide open avenue to go above and beyond expectations while a solid firewall against backdoor hosings.

How can one exceed expectations if the expectations aren't known?
 
At ten of 11 I start preparing for the farewell dance and the FOB comes up and tells me that it was supposed to be till 12. I showed him the contract that I had with the B&G and that ended at 11. He told me that he had paid the venue to go to 12 and that I was to stay till then. I told him that it would then cost another $150 for the extra hour payable only in cash. He gave me a hard time and told me he wasn't going to pay.

Unfortunately the contract caused the argument. I don't remember my exact words but they were along the lines of showing him the contract and stating, "Right here it states the start and end time and here it states the overtime fee. Here is the signature of your daughter and new son-in-law agreeing to these terms."

Now, if he had been nicer I may have just made the extra hour my gift to them be he started barking at me. Now, I do take to authority very well as, like Peter Gibbons in Office Space, I do have about eight bosses at the day job; however, the FOB was not one of them and that was not the day job.
 
No!!!!!!!

In short, this weekend's wedding went well. Except due to the fact that my ending contract 11:30 was up against the venue's 12:30. The venue won of course. I had to go an extra hour and couldn't charge the client.

You should have charged for that hour! There's no "contest" between you and the venue or their contract and yours. Your original contract with the client governs your obligations, not the contract at the venue. :sqfrown:

The only exception would be if your contract was an open ended "flat-rate" that did not specify duration or start-stop times, and doing that would be silly.
 
Thanks man....

You are 1000% correct. I learn every day. Nice web site, by the way.

It's not bad for a template-site from GoDaddy. I suppose if I actually put in the time to learn how to make my own from scratch or could afford to hire someone to do it I'd REALLY be dangerous:) It does the job and I love being able to edit myself on the fly, so it works.
 
AMS Albany : If you are able to modify your contract, may I offer a couple of suggestions? I may? Oh, good. Thank you.

The contract would be very tight if it included:

1) the precise time they want you to be starting. Do not include in the contract any business policy verbiage about how much time in advance to that start time you'll be arriving to set up. Put that language in a brochure, not a contract;

2) the exact time the event is scheduled to be over;

3) how many hours they have booked you for and included the phrase up to in front of that number. Using up to protects you from clients asking for partial refunds if the event dies early.

In some cases, a client might ask the DJ to be set up by, say, 3:00pm for an actual 5:00pm start. Those two hours between the client mandated setup and actual event start time is called standing time . This is a contractual and business policy crossroad.

Daring not to boldly speak to what should be universally done in DJ world concerning standing time, my personal policy is flexible depending on the type of event, the date involved, the money being charged, the attitude of the client, and how much of a pain in the butt this will be for me. There are far too many variables for a singular, blanket, cast-in-concrete standing time policy except for one...

it's billable at $100/hour,

which compared to typical union standing time rates, is cheap.
 
Tim - I guess my questions are:

What was your start time on the contract?
What time did you start?
Was the ceremony at the reception site?
Did your contract specify 5 hours of time?

If the start time on the contract was 6:30, and you started at 6:30 (if the ceremony was at the reception site, then I assume you had music going for the guest arrival...) and your contract was for 5 hours, then anything over 5 hours is OT...

If the ceremony was off-site, and you knew this, and you didn't have to start until 7:30 or 8, then I would have amended the contract and started the clock based on the updated times... (No OT...)

I've had a few instances where the hall was booked for more hours than I was... That simply leaves the opportunity for OT in MY hands.

I've also had weddings (ceremony on-site, me providing music) that started VERY late. Again, I was doing my job playing music for the guests while waiting. The clock started ticking at the contracted time, and stopped ticking at the contracted time. (YOUR inability to adhere to a schedule that YOU created is NOT my problem!!)

Another viewpoint: Suppose they had booked you until 12:30, but only had the room until 11:30, and the hall decided NOT to allow OT. Would you owe them a refund?


I would not owe them a refund cause my contract says services are for UP TO 4 hours, or whatever hours are agreed upon.
In your case, you did what was right. In most cases, what does the contract of the venue really have to do with your contract. They are 2 separate agreements. I would handle it exactly like Goodnight did.

It is always very clear in my mind and on paper start and end time. It is also in my contract that overtime can be negotiated as needed the night of the event. This is another indication that we will not do it for free. I am paid in full 10 or more prior to the event and do not have to wait for a check so it is easy to say goodnight and pack up.

Most cases the venue having them to 12 and you there to 11 is oversight that can easily be resolved by a simple overtime payment to keep going.
Always have a copy of your contract and when going to setup, confirm the time the venue is contracted to. This does not mean you have to negotiate or even tell them your end time. Just have to keep in in your mind to near the close of the night. Then approach the groom. Then leave it in his hands. Do not be too concerned or make a big deal about it, just be ready to stand your ground on your position.
 
What was your start time on the contract?

Originally 6:30 PM, Revised to 7 pm.

What time did you start?

I started playing preluded music at 6:15. (ceremony at 7pm)

Was the ceremony at the reception site?

Yes.

Did your contract specify 5 hours of time?

Yes, 6:30-11:30 pm. The revised time then went to 7-11:30, zero mention of me going till 12:30 until Thursday..

This will NEVER happen again...


Tim,

This is where it gets a bit confusing for me. You say they have 5 hours of time, but when the contract was revised to 7pm you didn't think that would also move the end time back to midnight?

Also, you started prelude music at 6:15 and the ceremony was not until 7 pm. Is that not billable time too?

How I see it is 6 hours and 15 minutes worth of service for 5 hours of time.

It's easy to "monday morning quarterback" this situation. Now you know... so now you know how to handle this in the future.....right?
 
I'm not sure where to start...Ok...

This particular client, it was supposed to be 7-11, I knew this was funny due to the fact this venue only does 12-5, 7-12. Not 7-11. Especially with 200 in attendance.

A week before it was spung on me. Ceremony starts at 7. Yes, I did the ceremony. I advsied my client the contract I had with her. She stated the contract with the venue...I corrected her saying I had a contract with her.

That part was settled.

Guests started to arrive at 6:05 pm for a 7 pm ceremony. Now, I don't know about you, I don't clock watch. Ooops, it's not 7 pm yet, I don't push play till 7 PM..No offense to anyone. I start playing at a certain time.

I wasn't thrilled about certain events that went on that night. But I rocked the reception and received a great letter of recommendation. THAT is all I care about.

Cap, I'll be happy to show you my contract. Verbage, that is. I cannot change it, per say. I do say, write, etc up to 4-5- hours.

OK, fire away everyone, I'm listening. I do appreciate the feedback.
 
Tim: Coffee's on me. Let's do it after Christmas.

Better yet, let's have a "real" business meeting January 12th, on contracts. We can use both our recent situations as conversational fodder.
 
A week before it was spung on me. Ceremony starts at 7.

Guests started to arrive at 6:05 pm for a 7 pm ceremony. Now, I don't know about you, I don't clock watch. Ooops, it's not 7 pm yet, I don't push play till 7 PM..No offense to anyone. I start playing at a certain time.

Hello! Hopefully this will just be a learning experience for you. "When the ceremony starts" is not, and should not be "when you start" if you are a wedding dj performing music for the ceremony. It should be a given in every case that you will be playing prelude music, at least 20-30 mins of it MINIMUM before the "ceremony start time." The length of time of the prelude will vary from case-to-case, depending on a ton of predictable and not-so-predictable factors, so if you want to account for it, you'll have top add this time into your contracted time.

Knowing that, and accounting for it in all cases, you have pretty much two options:

1. Bill for prelude time, and put your "start time" 30 mins before the ceremony start time.

or

2. (What I do) Bill according to the ceremony start time on your contract and "throw in" or "gift" the prelude time, and just start it when you have enough guests present to do so and/or it is close enough for the ceremony to start that turning on this music will be a "rally call" for mingling/wandering guests to be seated for whats about to start. The reason I do this is because the length of the prelude is hard to guage ahead of time, and it will seem like nickel and diming if you try to do anything about it after the fact. Ideally, you will be set up ahead of time and manning your post well before the prelude music starts, so what does it hurt us to just press play on a classical cd (or whatever mix they want) and let it roll until curtains go up.

Moral of the story: "Ceremony start time" is not the "dj start time.":sqwink:
 
Cap, I'll be happy to show you my contract. Verbage, that is. I cannot change it, per say. I do say, write, etc up to 4-5- hours.

Perhaps a different billing model would help. I'll show you how I do it and let you see if it might work better for you:

Scenario: Ceremony & Reception at SAME venue. Each requiring a setup. "Ceremony starts" at 5pm. Reception goes until 10pm.

I have a four hour minimum "Reception Package" for $750. This is where I start. The Reception package covers 6-10. Then, my "Ceremony Upgrade" I tell them counts as "the first hour."

So we have:

Ceremony billable from 5-6 for $150
Reception Package billable from 6-10 for $750
(ea. additional hour of reception time = $100)

Benefits of billing the ceremony this way:

1. Ceremony never lasts an hour at all, but this covers your setup time as well as prelude performance time.

2. Even if you end up with 10 minutes of prelude and 20 minutes of ceremony (ie "everything goes perfectly"), it's easy to justify your cost for this as there is the use and setup of another sound system

So doing it this way you bill for your prelude time as well, and on some, you make up for extended prelude time you might have had at another. It all evens out.

I never charge flat rates because of the very scenario you mentioned. If you charge a reasonable enough (from our viewpoint) flat-rate to actually cover all these variables and scenarios, you are going to make your prices jump up into a whole other bracket, causing other complications in marketing, changing your client-base, etc.

Reception = $x
Ceremony = $x

Build everything from the ground up and show them everything on paper. That way you are sure to bill for both and you dont eat it on anything!
 
Sounds To Go : Your business game plan and pricing policies are seemingly well thought out and probably work for your model nicely and uniquely in your region.

The downside of your posted information is the absence of any concrete details in how your business decisions and pricing policies are spelled out in your contract that would address AMS Albany's dilemma.

The client changed the start time, the client changed the end time, the client never considered or acknowledged those details must be changed according to the signed contract with Tim, and never accordingly contacted him for a change to those details.

If it ain't in the contract, policies and procedures don't mean squat, push come to shove.
 
Sounds To Go : Your business game plan and pricing policies are seemingly well thought out and probably work for your model nicely and uniquely in your region.

The downside of your posted information is the absence of any concrete details in how your business decisions and pricing policies are spelled out in your contract that would address AMS Albany's dilemma.

The client changed the start time, the client changed the end time, the client never considered or acknowledged those details must be changed according to the signed contract with Tim, and never accordingly contacted him for a change to those details.

If it ain't in the contract, policies and procedures don't mean squat, push come to shove.

Cap, nice to meet you. I've enjoyed your posts since I've been here. Thanks for the feedback, and your kind words. Actually though, the things we are discussing aren't "region specific" at all. You have also given great advise on possible contract modifications above, though I do specify in my contract what I require for setup and teardown times, and this in no way effectes the event time or billing considerations, but only assures me the chance to protect myself in the event that access is not available at a certain time.

It should be a given that start and stop times are included in any performance contract as they are in mine, and as it sounds like they are in yours as well.

Contracts should have the "who, what, when, and where" included in them, and if these are included, complete with start and stop times, it becomes a non-issue and AMS has his bases covered.

So yes, you are right, if it's not in the contract, it don't mean squat, but there shouldn't be a dj around without start and stop times in his contract. Not merely a matter of opinion or personal preference, but just plain ol' common sense from a business standpoint:) Just specify in your contract that you're playing, per contract, "from x to y" and how much it will cost the customer outside of those boundaries. This is applicable wherever you might be.

If anyone would like to take a look at my contract, including the terms and conditions, it can be found here:

http://sounds2go.com/Sounds_To_Go_Contract.html

AMS Albany (as well as anyone else), feel free to adopt whatever you like if it will help you avoid these kinds fo situations in the future.:sqcool:

I also notice that there are other opportunities here for AMS Albany as well in the pre-event process. While clients may make changes without consulting or notifying us, there are proactive things we can do to ensure we are not burned by these situations. In this case, for example, while it would be nice if the clients did consult us ahead of time, communicate changes, and ask happily "how much is this change going to cost me," we have to remember that WE are the professionals being hired, and it is implicitly given that we be the proactive ones instead of simply passive. To avoid this exact scenario, for example, I always do a prior-day confirmation call as part of my routine. Simply calling the bride/couple the day before (or a few days before) to confirm my arrival time, setup time, start and end times, etc. will catch this exact thing before it gets out of hand, and gives me the opportunity to discuss any such changes and any appropriate contractual/pricing changes with the client in a neutral environment before the event. This is just one of the many little tricks we learn through experience. We all get bit every now and then, what matters is how well we learn from those things, and how we go about modifying our practices moving forward.

(Sorry, AMS Albany, to refer to you in the third-person here, but I got engaged with Cap in a convo about your situation, and not with you directly... no offense intended.)
 
SoundsToGo : I did read your contract thoroughly before posting.

Where in your contract does it state specifically how a customer is to make changes to the date, time, location and what your excepted methods are to notify and do a cancellation?

From a strict form and formula stand point, could you explain why you have the clients sign in the top third of the agreement with most of the "legal meat" below their signatures (even though you have that mini-sign off? Why aren't all the articles listed and the signature line at the end where most traditional contracts require signatures?

I enjoy reading your material as well although sometimes I get the feeling you underestimate the width and breadth of talent and experience of those to whom who you're posting for, or at, or to.