Getting ready to buy some subs. Which is the preference here, folded horn like the B-52's or a front loaded. You guys haven't lead me wrong yet(except for budget) so I figure I would put it to the vote.
SUBS: horn or front loaded
- Thread starter Thomas
- Start date
Depends upon what you'll be needing them to do. 
Folded horn subs are better suited for outdoor concert applications where you need to get your bass out to the lawn seats. They typically project a long, narrow footprint and are used in an array for good coverage.
Front-radiating subs are more common in your FOH systems. They will shine at indoor shows and even outdoors where your audience is closer to the stage.
Thoughts?
Folded horn subs are better suited for outdoor concert applications where you need to get your bass out to the lawn seats. They typically project a long, narrow footprint and are used in an array for good coverage.
Front-radiating subs are more common in your FOH systems. They will shine at indoor shows and even outdoors where your audience is closer to the stage.
Thoughts?
horn subs are better suited in sets of 4 ideally. They really won't go very low unless you have multiples coupled together, unless the horn is really big (and un-manageable).
For most DJ rigs, I would suggest front loaded subs, probably a dual 18 that you can stand on end to put your mains on, or maybe 4 single 18's that you can only use 1 or 2 in really small venue's, and if you need more for a larger one, bring the others in and set them up.
Don't mix and match different types or brands, or even models within the same brand, that's just asking for problems usually.
For most DJ rigs, I would suggest front loaded subs, probably a dual 18 that you can stand on end to put your mains on, or maybe 4 single 18's that you can only use 1 or 2 in really small venue's, and if you need more for a larger one, bring the others in and set them up.
Don't mix and match different types or brands, or even models within the same brand, that's just asking for problems usually.
I like the sensitivity of the horns, but I really haven't hear any. I have heard front loaded and isobaric etc. So I am really not sure. From what I have read the front loaded follows the music better, but the horns project better. I seen pro's and con's to each. Thought about buying a couple JBL drivers and design/build a cab of each type to check which I liked the best, but really don't have that much free time right now.
What Fred said is correct! I Mainly use Scoop Style Bass Cabinets and also have Front Radiating Subs. The Scoops & Horn Loaded ones have more bottom end to it.
See here: (These are Vintage and no longer in production, however you can purchase the construction plans online and have them built. They have 2 Tilt wheels attached to the back.) Each one is Loaded with a 15" 16ohm 2205j Low freq. Transducer) They tend to act like the combo of a Radiator and Horn.
http://www.ourdjtalk.com/album.php?albumid=44&pictureid=481
http://www.ourdjtalk.com/album.php?albumid=44&pictureid=479
http://www.ourdjtalk.com/album.php?albumid=8&pictureid=33
See here: (These are Vintage and no longer in production, however you can purchase the construction plans online and have them built. They have 2 Tilt wheels attached to the back.) Each one is Loaded with a 15" 16ohm 2205j Low freq. Transducer) They tend to act like the combo of a Radiator and Horn.
http://www.ourdjtalk.com/album.php?albumid=44&pictureid=481
http://www.ourdjtalk.com/album.php?albumid=44&pictureid=479
http://www.ourdjtalk.com/album.php?albumid=8&pictureid=33
those are scoops, and I don't think they are really horn loaded. They are a front loaded driver with a horny port. They are still used today with mostly with reggae bands.
with most fully horn loaded drivers, you can't see the driver at all, it's buried somewhere in the foldings of the cabinet.
with most fully horn loaded drivers, you can't see the driver at all, it's buried somewhere in the foldings of the cabinet.
If you decide to build use some software like this to give you specs. If you use wrong specs it will mess up the sound
In college and even now, I've worked with several different bass cabinets. In college I worked with a pair of custom built folded horns and then the B-52 SR-18S (passives). I found a difference in how much power was needed to achieve the same volume in the sound, with the custom cabinets needing less to deliver the same sound.
The kids we're mentoring have a pair of Crewin-Vega folded horns and I'll tell you right now, there is a noticable difference in what a folded horn can do.
Now, when I was in college we would be using these speakers both outdoors and inside a large armory and a 1000 person ballroom.
I guess I'd have to say both types of cabinets can do what you wold most likely need. My personal thought is a folded horn will allow your crowd to feel the bass better than a front load.
The kids we're mentoring have a pair of Crewin-Vega folded horns and I'll tell you right now, there is a noticable difference in what a folded horn can do.
Now, when I was in college we would be using these speakers both outdoors and inside a large armory and a 1000 person ballroom.
I guess I'd have to say both types of cabinets can do what you wold most likely need. My personal thought is a folded horn will allow your crowd to feel the bass better than a front load.
I use to have 2 QSC HPR 181i front loaded subs. The sound quality was great but I dealt with finicky sub placement to get the bass out on the floor and was most irritated when I felt more bass behind the sub rather than on the dancefloor. I've since upgraded to the Danley TH-115 tapped-horn loaded sub. One of those is louder than a couple of HPR 181i subs and I've found that my crowds are putting themselves about 15 feet or greater from my DJ booth. They had to be a lot closer with the QSCs.
I'm working on getting the 2nd Danley as soon as possible.
I'm working on getting the 2nd Danley as soon as possible.
I use LEAP software for my speaker designs. It's a little older but still very useful. No matter what the charts produced say though, it's still hard to beat actually hearing them.
I would suggest you try to listen to both types. It is hard to deside just from what you will hear in the show room, but you will never go wrong with B-52 products. I have several and pound on them all the time and have never had a problem. I like the look of the Danley subs, but I don't know much about them or where you can buy them. Get them best quality you can afford.
If you want horn loaded subs, stay away from the B-52s or Cerwin vegas. The driver is simply too big, and the horn path is simply too short. Their sound is ehh. If you're really interested in horn loaded subs, check out www.billfitzmaurice.com and do some reading, the man is genious with sound, and his sub designs will produce bass like you've never herd before.
As a point of reference, his Tuba 24 sub (the one I built) has a 12" driver and weights about 60lbs depending on the type of wood used. I used 5 ply, and it was a bit heavier. Here is its direct SPL comparison to a 170lbs Cerwin Vega horn loaded sub.
View attachment CVL36.gif
Now, for the more practical approach, I'd say definitely say go for some QSC or JBL SRX/MRX subs. All three kick really hard, the passive stuff is a little bit more challenging because you need proper apes and processing to truly get the most out of them.
I'm happy with my four Cerwin Vega folded horns. I also have a pair of custom built dual 15" that I can use for a smaller party. Your choice should be based on what events you're doing most of the time. In my case the CV's are overkill but what the hell I enjoy them and when bi or tri amping you can mix and match as needed. It's always better to have too much and not need it than not having enough.
How low can you be?
This is just a gut level guess...when you get to the bottom octaves, say below 150Hz and most certainly below 100Hz all sub configurations are omni-directional. They do radiate via the enclosure almost as much as they do the cone. It just takes too big a horn to be practical at the lowest frequencies. And when that baltic birch feels the beat it just wants to dance!
Before anyone tells me how good their Fluegel Horn 5000* is, I'd dearly love to see some polar plots at a few frequencies. My guess is that significant directional control doesn't come into play until significantly above 250Hz in a single enclosure or multiple enclosures are coupled.
The only system I've heard of that provides significant directionality at the lowest octaves is made by Mayer Sound. They claim about 20db front to rear (which is very significant) in a cardioid or super cardioid pattern. It uses technology very similar to the way a microphone achieves directionality only it functions in reverse.
*Not pointing this comment at anyone, just looking for some real polar data
This is just a gut level guess...when you get to the bottom octaves, say below 150Hz and most certainly below 100Hz all sub configurations are omni-directional. They do radiate via the enclosure almost as much as they do the cone. It just takes too big a horn to be practical at the lowest frequencies. And when that baltic birch feels the beat it just wants to dance!
Before anyone tells me how good their Fluegel Horn 5000* is, I'd dearly love to see some polar plots at a few frequencies. My guess is that significant directional control doesn't come into play until significantly above 250Hz in a single enclosure or multiple enclosures are coupled.
The only system I've heard of that provides significant directionality at the lowest octaves is made by Mayer Sound. They claim about 20db front to rear (which is very significant) in a cardioid or super cardioid pattern. It uses technology very similar to the way a microphone achieves directionality only it functions in reverse.
*Not pointing this comment at anyone, just looking for some real polar data
I don't know much about ya'll sound tecky trekky talk, but I can say this asshat right hear straps 2 EV Eliminators (cheap and sucky) on either side of 2 Cerwin Vega T sumthin' 18's ice cream scoop horn or whatever ya say.
The point is, I can't hear or breathe very well at the end of my high school events....Mainly because I'm teachin' the kids the "White Tornado" on "Jump On It" most of the night.
Sounds purty good for me.
EV Eliminators at all events indoors or out,
Cerwin Vegas when I wanna get down with the HS kiddies.
YouTube- Fresh Prince of Bel-Air Jump On It
The point is, I can't hear or breathe very well at the end of my high school events....Mainly because I'm teachin' the kids the "White Tornado" on "Jump On It" most of the night.
Sounds purty good for me.
EV Eliminators at all events indoors or out,
Cerwin Vegas when I wanna get down with the HS kiddies.
YouTube- Fresh Prince of Bel-Air Jump On It
I had an event this summer (teen dance that Qdupsoundz proviced the music for, we used my system) that had me thinking very hard about setup of the subs. I was outside, behind me was a store wall made of brick. The sub levels behind the speakers were almost unbearable, enough to make my eyes vibrate and I was unable to read the computer screen.
However, out front, practically nothing. It was however vibrating the portapotties 100feet out, but still not appreciable bass.
My theory, however untested and unproven at this point, is that the cavity between the brick wall behind me and the positioning of the subs was a pretty much ideal length that the bass bouncing off the wall was coming back out front, and when combined with the front of the speaker sound, it was cancelling out.
As for directionality of subs, take a look at Dave Rat's "orgasmatron" sub setup. definitely unpractical for Dj use unless your doing a few thousand people and have nearly unlimited funds, but he setup 4 stacks of 3 double 18's per side in a pattern, and had delays on some stacks, allowing him to steer the bass away from the stage and spread it around the audience however he wanted to (up to a point)
http://www.ratsound.com/cblog/categories/21-VortexOrgasmatron-and-Slotfire-Sub-Setups
http://www.ratsound.com/cblog/uploads/2009_08_09_org.jpg
SPL is SPL. Al long as it is measued correctly and the manufacture specs are not miss leading.
I find front loaded sound better and have just as high spl as folded horns. Again depending on what you buy.
Front loaded sure will be much smaller in cabnet size. Most of the time 2 front loaded subs are the same size as one foled horn.
I find front loaded sound better and have just as high spl as folded horns. Again depending on what you buy.
Front loaded sure will be much smaller in cabnet size. Most of the time 2 front loaded subs are the same size as one foled horn.